George Takei Vs Hobby Lobby

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フォーラム » Everything Else » Politics and Religion » George Takei vs Hobby Lobby
George Takei vs Hobby Lobby
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 Cerberus.Pleebo
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By Cerberus.Pleebo 2014-07-04 10:55:17  
wormfeeder said: »
personal responsibility
DRINK!
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 Bismarck.Magnuss
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By Bismarck.Magnuss 2014-07-04 11:20:20  


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By Fumiku 2014-07-04 11:22:03  
Odin.Godofgods said: »
wormfeeder said: »
oh did I mention birth control is a personal responsibility and not a right, except that you have the right use or not use it.

thats like saying u have a right to use or not use anit-biotics, but your insurance doesnt have to make them accessible to you.


Not even close...
 Bahamut.Baconwrap
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By Bahamut.Baconwrap 2014-07-04 12:49:48  
Bahamut.Wordlifee said: »
Hobby Lobby also pays VERY well allowing their employees to pay for their drugs.

You assume all drugs are affordable w/o insurance.
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By Triffle 2014-07-04 13:08:19  
Bahamut.Baconwrap said: »
Bahamut.Wordlifee said: »
Hobby Lobby also pays VERY well allowing their employees to pay for their drugs.

You assume all drugs are affordable w/o insurance.

I think the guy assumes that these people don't have homes or need to buy food, clothing and other essentials. xD
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 Odin.Jassik
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-07-04 13:11:14  
Bahamut.Baconwrap said: »
Bahamut.Wordlifee said: »
Hobby Lobby also pays VERY well allowing their employees to pay for their drugs.

You assume all drugs are affordable w/o insurance.



In this case, it is irrelevant how much they cost, the issue is that they are allowed to pick and choose which kinds of medicine they will offer based on the religious beliefs of the owner(s). Fanatical Christians could decide they don't want to cover any medicine because it violates their religious beliefs. Who is going to validate the convictions of companies that deny coverage based on religion? Who is going to determine when religion is used as a front to save money? What if I as a business owner decided that I wouldn't provide health insurance beyond diagnostics because any actual care would be tampering with God's plan?
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 Bismarck.Bloodrose
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By Bismarck.Bloodrose 2014-07-04 13:14:00  
"pays very well" as compared to who?

Many employers offer what they call "Competitive wages" in the context that they competitively pay the minimum amount required to hire and retain their employees, often times little more than the federal or state mandated minimum wage.
 Odin.Jassik
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-07-04 13:15:35  
Bismarck.Bloodrose said: »
"pays very well" as compared to who?

Many employers offer what they call "Competitive wages" in the context that they competitively pay the minimum amount required to hire and retain their employees, often times little more than the federal or state mandated minimum wage.

Hobby Lobby pays almost double the minimum wage. At least in this case, they aren't a crooked company, it's the broader implications that people don't seem to comprehend.
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By Bismarck.Bloodrose 2014-07-04 13:27:25  
Odin.Jassik said: »
Bismarck.Bloodrose said: »
"pays very well" as compared to who?

Many employers offer what they call "Competitive wages" in the context that they competitively pay the minimum amount required to hire and retain their employees, often times little more than the federal or state mandated minimum wage.

Hobby Lobby pays almost double the minimum wage. At least in this case, they aren't a crooked company, it's the broader implications that people don't seem to comprehend.
That puts the payment plan into a much better context, however, even at almost double the minimum wage, are the employees able to get enough hours or shifts to make it noteworthy?
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By Bahamut.Baconwrap 2014-07-04 21:27:59  
Odin.Jassik said: »
In this case, it is irrelevant how much they cost

Yeah I know. I was just addressing @Wordlifee logic that Hobby Lobby pays their employees enough to afford medications the company refuses to cover.

Additionally, OTCs are pretty cheap in comparison to some prescription medication. Most family's can't afford to dish out $2000-3000 a month on medication because it conflicts with the morals of hypothetical religious company, regardless of how much they are getting paid.
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By Leviathan.Andret 2014-07-04 21:43:29  
I don't think the issue is about Hobby Lobby. It's purely about how companies can abuse this ruling. If a company is for-profits then its primary goals would be cutting costs and raising revenue. The ruling allows companies to adopt religious practices that allow them to cut down costs that normally would violate some laws.

If you turn yourself evil and start thinking from the point of a for-profit company then you can see a lot of holes to exploit from this. A company can be any religion, it does not have to be the religion of its board members and it does not have to be a recognizable religion or even an actual religion. It could invent its own religion and impose its view into its own code of conduct and exploit that to reduce costs.

Of course, a smart company would squeeze this exploit slowly and avoid anything public or direct confrontation with other laws. You don't have to use your new power directly, you can and should always use it as leverage or pressure. Then you combine it with other rights, laws and powers to get your way. Employees without strong power of bargaining (no union or strong labor laws) will most likely caved since they can't afford lawsuits on their own, unless the company squeezes really hard.

You can say that some of this is stupid to do as it might harm the company in the long run. But if you think about it, how many companies can see further than 2 years ahead? In fact, most of them tend to favor short term gains over long term lost.
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By Triffle 2014-07-04 22:35:23  
Remember those religious people who don't go to doctors and trust the good ol' lordy lord to heal them. What happens when one of those runs your work place? :D
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 Asura.Echandra
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By Asura.Echandra 2014-07-04 23:35:47  
Triffle said: »
Remember those religious people who don't go to doctors and trust the good ol' lordy lord to heal them. What happens when one of those runs your work place? :D

you don't have anything to worry about, the lord will show you the right path to walk and you will be saved. pray harder.
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By Triffle 2014-07-05 02:02:35  
Asura.Echandra said: »
Triffle said: »
Remember those religious people who don't go to doctors and trust the good ol' lordy lord to heal them. What happens when one of those runs your work place? :D

you don't have anything to worry about, the lord will show you the right path to walk and you will be saved. pray harder.

I've always seen that written, but I never understood what it meant. How do you pray harder? Do you have to pray about the same thing multiple times, yell it out loud, think it so hard you're on the verge of an aneurysm or screw your eyes tight shut, hold your hands together and take a stance like you're trying to reach Super Saiyan mode or pass a meal from that all you can eat steak buffet?

Either way that seems to be the equivalent of whining to your father for something and I don't know about you, but when I whined as a kid for toys I never got them. I'd have to earn them via chores.
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2014-07-05 03:12:48  
^This. I hate to sound harsh, but it seems selfish to turn down the miracle of modern medicine and demand a more divine solution to a health problem. I just don't get the reasoning.
 Odin.Zicdeh
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By Odin.Zicdeh 2014-07-05 03:45:28  
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
^This. I hate to sound harsh, but it seems selfish to turn down the miracle of modern medicine and demand a more divine solution to a health problem. I just don't get the reasoning.

Well, if the more reasonable Christians throw a ***fit out of the loss of a nebulous blob of cells that is a zygote, how ***fitty do the crazier ones get when you abort millions and millions of God's little miracles with an antibiotic pill. Bacteria is life too!
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 Odin.Jassik
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-07-05 08:31:25  
Odin.Zicdeh said: »
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
^This. I hate to sound harsh, but it seems selfish to turn down the miracle of modern medicine and demand a more divine solution to a health problem. I just don't get the reasoning.

Well, if the more reasonable Christians throw a ***fit out of the loss of a nebulous blob of cells that is a zygote, how ***fitty do the crazier ones get when you abort millions and millions of God's little miracles with an antibiotic pill. Bacteria is life too!

Only human life is sacred. The Earth is here for us to use (destroy). It all stems down to what I call megalomaniacal humility and selfish selflessness. In many ways, religion in general is not all that different from psychological disorders in function and manifestation. Imaginary friends, irrational rage, circular logic, etc.
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By fonewear 2014-07-05 08:36:32  
How does an actor get taken seriously is a more interesting question than a hypothetical question about Sharia Law.
 Lakshmi.Zerowone
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By Lakshmi.Zerowone 2014-07-05 08:56:24  
You keep trying to discredit his stance by calling him an actor. Does this also apply to the way you perceive actor turned president Ronald Reagan?
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 Valefor.Tsurara
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By Valefor.Tsurara 2014-07-05 10:09:24  
fonewear said: »
How does an actor get taken seriously is a more interesting question than a hypothetical question about Sharia Law.

 Garuda.Chanti
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By Garuda.Chanti 2014-07-05 10:23:45  
fonewear said: »
How does an actor get taken seriously is a more interesting question than a hypothetical question about Sharia Law.
By speaking seriously about things that are important to some people.
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By Phoenix.Xantavia 2014-07-05 14:28:43  
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
^This. I hate to sound harsh, but it seems selfish to turn down the miracle of modern medicine and demand a more divine solution to a health problem. I just don't get the reasoning.
It reminds me of an old joke. A man is trapped on his roof while the town is flooding. A boat comes by to save him and he responds "The lord will save me". The water rises and another boat comes by. Once again, the man says "The lord will save me". Water rises some more and this time a helicopter comes to his aid. He refuses once again, saying "The lord will save me". The water rises and the man drowns. In heaven, the man asks God "Wasn't I a good man? Why did you let me drown?" God responds "I sent you 2 boats and a helicopter. What else do you want."
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 Asura.Triffle
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By Asura.Triffle 2014-07-05 17:46:52  
Phoenix.Xantavia said: »
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
^This. I hate to sound harsh, but it seems selfish to turn down the miracle of modern medicine and demand a more divine solution to a health problem. I just don't get the reasoning.
It reminds me of an old joke. A man is trapped on his roof while the town is flooding. A boat comes by to save him and he responds "The lord will save me". The water rises and another boat comes by. Once again, the man says "The lord will save me". Water rises some more and this time a helicopter comes to his aid. He refuses once again, saying "The lord will save me". The water rises and the man drowns. In heaven, the man asks God "Wasn't I a good man? Why did you let me drown?" God responds "I sent you 2 boats and a helicopter. What else do you want."

Reminds me of something else. If God isn't personally saving the children starving in Africa and the people dying in the Middle-East from suicide bombers, then he probably won't save you from the flu that you have no matter how many times you ask.
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 Bahamut.Baconwrap
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By Bahamut.Baconwrap 2014-07-05 18:01:45  
fonewear said: »
How does an actor get taken seriously is a more interesting question than a hypothetical question about Sharia Law.

I understand your point, but he isn't the typical Hollywood actor turned activist. Takei is quite articulate compared to people like Tom Cruise lol
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 Phoenix.Mikumaru
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By Phoenix.Mikumaru 2014-07-05 19:37:46  
Leviathan.Andret said: »
I don't think the issue is about Hobby Lobby. It's purely about how companies can abuse this ruling. If a company is for-profits then its primary goals would be cutting costs and raising revenue. The ruling allows companies to adopt religious practices that allow them to cut down costs that normally would violate some laws.

If you turn yourself evil and start thinking from the point of a for-profit company then you can see a lot of holes to exploit from this. A company can be any religion, it does not have to be the religion of its board members and it does not have to be a recognizable religion or even an actual religion. It could invent its own religion and impose its view into its own code of conduct and exploit that to reduce costs.

Of course, a smart company would squeeze this exploit slowly and avoid anything public or direct confrontation with other laws. You don't have to use your new power directly, you can and should always use it as leverage or pressure. Then you combine it with other rights, laws and powers to get your way. Employees without strong power of bargaining (no union or strong labor laws) will most likely caved since they can't afford lawsuits on their own, unless the company squeezes really hard.

You can say that some of this is stupid to do as it might harm the company in the long run. But if you think about it, how many companies can see further than 2 years ahead? In fact, most of them tend to favor short term gains over long term lost.
This is the exact point that Takei and other political/legal pundits are pointing out. While anti-contraception supporters only see a victory for thier cause they fail to see that the supreme court has in fact not only said a company/business/corporation can claim religious beliefs/freedom but that these beliefs/freedoms trumps those of actual people.
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By Fumiku 2014-07-06 09:14:53  
Odin.Jassik said: »
Bahamut.Baconwrap said: »
Bahamut.Wordlifee said: »
Hobby Lobby also pays VERY well allowing their employees to pay for their drugs.

You assume all drugs are affordable w/o insurance.



In this case, it is irrelevant how much they cost, the issue is that they are allowed to pick and choose which kinds of medicine they will offer based on the religious beliefs of the owner(s). Fanatical Christians could decide they don't want to cover any medicine because it violates their religious beliefs. Who is going to validate the convictions of companies that deny coverage based on religion? Who is going to determine when religion is used as a front to save money? What if I as a business owner decided that I wouldn't provide health insurance beyond diagnostics because any actual care would be tampering with God's plan?


These are not medicine (For 99.9% of women).... These are used for personal life choices. The scope of the argument also prohibits them from using religion as way to not pay for medication. The courts disavowed these possibilities.

Also I think people are missing the big picture. The only reason I believe that Judge "Obito" let this go though is because he probably knew of the mandatory coverage when a company doesn't provide for it.

Everyone is covered though the laws of the ACA when a company doesn't approve. The Affordable care act is Affordable, Covers all my needs, and is Awesome! So if I don't like what my employer is offering! GUESS WHAT! I'll be damned! I CAN GO ON THE EXCHANGES AND FIND AN AFFORDABLE PLAN THAT FITS MY NEEDS!

So what are people still mad about?! Socialized medicine is making it's way though. People don't see that though, because they are too busy fighting for control of businesses they want control over. (even though it's not their business).
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By Fumiku 2014-07-06 09:17:08  
Asura.Triffle said: »
Phoenix.Xantavia said: »
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
^This. I hate to sound harsh, but it seems selfish to turn down the miracle of modern medicine and demand a more divine solution to a health problem. I just don't get the reasoning.
It reminds me of an old joke. A man is trapped on his roof while the town is flooding. A boat comes by to save him and he responds "The lord will save me". The water rises and another boat comes by. Once again, the man says "The lord will save me". Water rises some more and this time a helicopter comes to his aid. He refuses once again, saying "The lord will save me". The water rises and the man drowns. In heaven, the man asks God "Wasn't I a good man? Why did you let me drown?" God responds "I sent you 2 boats and a helicopter. What else do you want."

Reminds me of something else. If God isn't personally saving the children starving in Africa and the people dying in the Middle-East from suicide bombers, then he probably won't save you from the flu that you have no matter how many times you ask.

The ruling limits the scope. So this is nothing to worry about.
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By FaeQueenCory 2014-07-06 09:48:00  
This all ultimately stems from corporations being people...
If corporations aren't people, and thereby are not protected by the Bill of Rights... Cause... They aren't sentient, living entities... Cause they are things...
This would never have happened.
But since corporations are people now... And it appears are more of a person than the people working within it... They have freedom of religion, just like how they have freedom of speech.

Just that as with their freedom of speech not being speech, but is money... So too is their freedom of religion not the right to practice any goddamn religion it pleases... But to force the religious beliefs that "it holds" onto its employees...

Why does no one note how this violates the freedom of religion of the employee?
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-07-06 09:54:52  
FaeQueenCory said: »
This all ultimately stems from corporations being people...
If corporations aren't people, and thereby are not protected by the Bill of Rights... Cause... They aren't sentient, living entities... Cause they are things...
This would never have happened.
But since corporations are people now... And it appears are more of a person than the people working within it... They have freedom of religion, just like how they have freedom of speech.

Just that as with their freedom of speech not being speech, but is money... So too is their freedom of religion not the right to practice any goddamn religion it pleases... But to force the religious beliefs that "it holds" onto its employees...

Why does no one note how this violates the freedom of religion of the employee?

I don't see this actually violating employees freedom of religion, unless emergency contraceptives are a weekly sacrament for some church. It does put the company is a uniquely illegal position of being allowed to pick and choose what part of the law they want to follow and what parts they don't. In this arena, it gives companies greater rights than people. So long as they are required to pay an additional tax toward public coverage that their employees have access to, it wouldn't be that big of a deal. The issue is precedence. Companies have free speech and freedom of religion. What's to stop the next case being a business owned by Aryan Christians refusing to employ minorities based on religion?
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By fonewear 2014-07-06 10:08:42  
This thread is not to page nine your argument is invalid !
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