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George Takei vs Hobby Lobby
Bahamut.Ravael
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 13641
By Bahamut.Ravael 2014-07-08 13:19:40
Wait, so I can ignore Supreme Court rulings because they "don't have the authority to make it"? Or does that only apply to rulings certain people don't like?
And here's this, since I paged and apparently it's a thing now:
It's page 9. Let's go nuts!
By Jetackuu 2014-07-08 13:24:01
@ Jetackuu
Accept that they did and it wont be overturned any time soon. Our Government is very easy to figure out. If it makes money for some larger contributing entity its getting passed and it will be ratified via Supreme Court. It doesn't matter left or right conservative or Liberal blue or Red at the end of the day you and your rights do not mean jack squat unless you have the money to backup said rights. I'm aware of what they did, and the state of the nation. Doesn't mean I can't *** about it.
By Jetackuu 2014-07-08 13:25:29
Wait, so I can ignore Supreme Court rulings because they "don't have the authority to make it"? Or does that only apply to rulings certain people don't like?
And here's this, since I paged and apparently it's a thing now:
It's page 9. Let's go nuts! You can ignore any ruling that equates them to treating the Constitution like a ball of wax, as they weren't given that authority.
@Nausi: it's hilarious to hear you try to talk of the Constitution when you yourself don't understand it.
By Jetackuu 2014-07-08 13:28:58
Oh go whine someplace else about the outrage at the government picking up the tab. I have said in many-a-subject that the ACA & the slow march towards single payer is the wrong direction since before 2008 simply because it's not your neighbors responsibility to pay for your healthcare. This is not the topic at hand.
The US being founded on a constitution and a bill of rights, congress and the president cannot pass a law confiscating guns nor ordering the quarrying of troops in private homes nor (insert amendment here). Laws passed that violate these principles are not valid and are nullified by the fact that they do not align constitutionally with our founding principles.
I know it may seen old and busted to follow such "traditional" principles but trust me, you'll be happy in the future that they're still there, if they are.
It is the duty of a society to protect the well being of it's citizens.
Good thing that healthcare laws don't violate but instead enforce those principles.
I don't recall any quartering of troops, but the plethora of anti-gun/arms laws on the books are all unconstitutional, as they're all infringement/encroachment upon the rights of gun owners.
Bahamut.Ravael
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 13641
By Bahamut.Ravael 2014-07-08 13:32:10
You can ignore any ruling that equates them to treating the Constitution like a ball of wax, as they weren't given that authority.
No, you can't. I don't agree with a lot of their rulings, that doesn't mean I'm allowed to pick and choose which ones I have to obey. If I employ people, can I pretend the ACA doesn't exist because I personally think it's unconstitutional? Well, sure, but can I ignore any legal actions used against me as a result? Um, no.
By Jetackuu 2014-07-08 13:33:39
You can ignore any ruling that equates them to treating the Constitution like a ball of wax, as they weren't given that authority.
No, you can't. I don't agree with a lot of their rulings, that doesn't mean I'm allowed to pick and choose which ones I have to obey. If I employ people, can I pretend the ACA doesn't exist because I personally think it's unconstitutional? Well, sure, but can I ignore any legal actions used against me as a result? Um, no. I can if I want, just as Nausi can keep being a neocon loon if he wants.
edit: and you're comparing unlike things, like I've said many times: companies are people, and I can think what I want, as I'm a person, not a company.
By driderk 2014-07-09 07:59:25
I am so sick of this stupid idea that this ruling is opening the door for Muslim companies to impose Sharia law on its employees.
If we must do a Muslim analogy, how about this one. A Muslim company is forced to provide lunch for its employees, and they want to only provide Halal foods. However they are forced to provide non-Halal, but it was ruled that they don't have to provide pork. Employees can still bring pork for lunch if they wish. If the company tried to stop an employee from eating pork or fired them for it, that employee would take them to court and win.
Then again, everyone needs food to survive and no one needs birth control to survive, so maybe it isn't that accurate of an analogy. My personal beliefs are that everyone should have access to free birth control. Hell put tax payer funded bowls of condoms at the post office and arm federal agents with pill pez dispensers if it allows people to avoid having offspring they don't truly want, but I also understand not everyone agrees with my views.
Leviathan.Redherring
サーバ: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 162
By Leviathan.Redherring 2014-07-09 08:40:41
I am so sick of this stupid idea that this ruling is opening the door for Muslim companies to impose Sharia law on its employees.
If we must do a Muslim analogy, how about this one. A Muslim company is forced to provide lunch for its employees, and they want to only provide Halal foods. However they are forced to provide non-Halal, but it was ruled that they don't have to provide pork. Employees can still bring pork for lunch if they wish. If the company tried to stop an employee from eating pork or fired them for it, that employee would take them to court and win.
Then again, everyone needs food to survive and no one needs birth control to survive, so maybe it isn't that accurate of an analogy. My personal beliefs are that everyone should have access to free birth control. Hell put tax payer funded bowls of condoms at the post office and arm federal agents with pill pez dispensers if it allows people to avoid having offspring they don't truly want, but I also understand not everyone agrees with my views.
you can replace that with something else like Scientology and antidepressants.
Bismarck.Ramyrez
サーバ: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4746
By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-07-09 08:44:45
no one needs birth control to survive
Inaccurate.
The vast majority of women do not need birth control to survive.
For some women, child birth carries an extremely high chance of lethality. My mother is one of them. After I was born the doctor straight-up told her that having more children would be highly ill-advised and carried a very real possibility of death for both her and the child.
So unless you expect monogamous, married women to just cut off sexual relations with her husbands, your blanket statement is not applicable.
I realize you just said you're perfectly ok with birth control, but try not giving any more ammo to the religious fruitcakes than you have to.
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By fonewear 2014-07-09 09:00:16
no one needs birth control to survive
Inaccurate.
The vast majority of women do not need birth control to survive.
For some women, child birth carries an extremely high chance of lethality. My mother is one of them. After I was born the doctor straight-up told her that having more children would be highly ill-advised and carried a very real possibility of death for both her and the child.
So unless you expect monogamous, married women to just cut off sexual relations with her husbands, your blanket statement is not applicable.
I realize you just said you're perfectly ok with birth control, but try not giving any more ammo to the religious fruitcakes than you have to.
I take birth control because it is flavored like chocolate.
Ragnarok.Nausi
サーバ: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6709
By Ragnarok.Nausi 2014-07-09 09:41:29
It is the duty of a society to protect the well being of it's citizens.
Especially when it protects them from themselves.
...it's for the greater good!
Bismarck.Ramyrez
サーバ: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4746
By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-07-09 09:42:39
It is the duty of a society to protect the well being of it's citizens. Especially when it protects them from themselves. ...it's for the greater good!
Garuda.Chanti
サーバ: Garuda
Game: FFXI
Posts: 11457
By Garuda.Chanti 2014-07-09 15:30:13
Two things relating to the hobby lobby case:
Gitmo Detainees Cite Hobby Lobby in New Court Filing - Mother Jones, left leaning source.
Lets see how well the Religious Freedom Restoration Act flies when used by Moslems.
Also, Hobby Lobby Supporter Recreates Iconic Gaza Jihadist Image.
By Jetackuu 2014-07-09 15:35:50
You know, I almost sympathize with the "liberal" agenda of "anti-gun" when I see stupid *** like that, from WV, go figure.
Bahamut.Ravael
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 13641
By Bahamut.Ravael 2014-07-09 15:46:24
If I stopped supporting a cause every time someone made a fool of his or her self, I would have nothing left to support.
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By Jetackuu 2014-07-09 15:49:21
If I stopped supporting a cause every time someone made a fool of his or her self, I would have nothing left to support.
I just think a 27 year old woman would have something better to with her time.
I also wasn't really serious, but the sheer absurdness is mind boggling.
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By fonewear 2014-07-09 15:54:26
It is the duty of a society to protect the well being of it's citizens.
Especially when it protects them from themselves.
...it's for the greater good!
Also know as the Hitler excuse !
By fonewear 2014-07-09 15:55:40
If I stopped caring every time someone made a fool of his or her self, I would have nothing left to post.
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Valefor.Sehachan
サーバ: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 24219
By Valefor.Sehachan 2014-07-09 15:58:37
Judging from the pic I would assume she was joking about it.
By Jetackuu 2014-07-09 16:01:53
Judging from the pic I would assume she was joking about it.
Unless she's a satirist, from what I read she's a bit of a radical conservative. The comparison wasn't her doing, again from what I read. Idk, and if it is satire, it typically means somebody is that nuts to really believe it.
Valefor.Sehachan
サーバ: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 24219
By Valefor.Sehachan 2014-07-09 16:03:16
Thought it was self-irony or something idk.
By driderk 2014-07-09 17:56:56
no one needs birth control to survive
Inaccurate.
The vast majority of women do not need birth control to survive.
For some women, child birth carries an extremely high chance of lethality. My mother is one of them. After I was born the doctor straight-up told her that having more children would be highly ill-advised and carried a very real possibility of death for both her and the child.
So unless you expect monogamous, married women to just cut off sexual relations with her husbands, your blanket statement is not applicable.
I realize you just said you're perfectly ok with birth control, but try not giving any more ammo to the religious fruitcakes than you have to.
You kind of disprove that it is a true need by citing other options your mother could go with in your example, making my original statement still accurate, until you can actually prove it wrong. I was unable to find one example of birth control being the only option in a life or death medical scenario. Also why can't daddy wrap it up or get a vasectomy? Not to mention if it was really life or death and the pill isn't even 100% effective if taken properly, mom would kind of be risking her life with each romp.
Again I am pro choice and think birth control should be provided to anyone who will take it, but I am not seeing the injustice here.
By Cua 2014-07-09 18:24:48
And on the 8th day, God created Hobby Lobby.
Bismarck.Ramyrez
サーバ: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4746
By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-07-09 18:46:34
no one needs birth control to survive
Inaccurate.
The vast majority of women do not need birth control to survive.
For some women, child birth carries an extremely high chance of lethality. My mother is one of them. After I was born the doctor straight-up told her that having more children would be highly ill-advised and carried a very real possibility of death for both her and the child.
So unless you expect monogamous, married women to just cut off sexual relations with her husbands, your blanket statement is not applicable.
I realize you just said you're perfectly ok with birth control, but try not giving any more ammo to the religious fruitcakes than you have to.
You kind of disprove that it is a true need by citing other options your mother could go with in your example, making my original statement still accurate, until you can actually prove it wrong. I was unable to find one example of birth control being the only option in a life or death medical scenario. Also why can't daddy wrap it up or get a vasectomy? Not to mention if it was really life or death and the pill isn't even 100% effective if taken properly, mom would kind of be risking her life with each romp.
Again I am pro choice and think birth control should be provided to anyone who will take it, but I am not seeing the injustice here.
I'm sorry. I was under the impression that a vasectomy was a means of birth control.
Condoms break or otherwise fail. And yes, the pill isn't 100% effective. Which is yet another reason why morning-after medication availability is vital.
Forcing someone to carry an unwanted pregnancy through to term because of a contraceptive failure, rape, or a simple error in judgment is inappropriate. If they choose to do so based on their personal beliefs, fine. But the morning-after methodology is not an abortion no matter how hard some religious zealots bang their drum. And, for that matter, even an actual abortion should be available without a bunch of ill-meaning zealots attacking you for having it.
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Odin.Liela
サーバ: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10191
By Odin.Liela 2014-07-09 19:55:30
I have avoided the heck out of this thread, so if this link has already been posted, please disregard.
13 Reactions to the Hobby Lobby Case That Are Completely Misinformed:
http://www.cosmopolitan.com/politics/news/a28069/hobby-lobby-lies/
(Sorry that it's Cosmopolitan >.> but it's worth taking the 5 minutes to read and understand anyways.)
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 5381
By Bahamut.Baconwrap 2014-07-09 20:13:52
Nothing wrong with Cosmo!
By fonewear 2014-07-09 20:43:25
Bahamut.Baconwrap said: »Nothing wrong with Cosmo!
By fonewear 2014-07-09 20:44:50
I have avoided the heck out of this thread, so if this link has already been posted, please disregard.
13 Reactions to the Hobby Lobby Case That Are Completely Misinformed:
http://www.cosmopolitan.com/politics/news/a28069/hobby-lobby-lies/
(Sorry that it's Cosmopolitan >.> but it's worth taking the 5 minutes to read and understand anyways.)
Needs more 358 ways to please your man while being a strong independent woman !
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サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 5381
By Bahamut.Baconwrap 2014-07-09 20:49:03
I have avoided the heck out of this thread, so if this link has already been posted, please disregard.
13 Reactions to the Hobby Lobby Case That Are Completely Misinformed:
http://www.cosmopolitan.com/politics/news/a28069/hobby-lobby-lies/
(Sorry that it's Cosmopolitan >.> but it's worth taking the 5 minutes to read and understand anyways.)
Needs more 358 ways to please your man while being a strong independent woman !
That's sexist!
EDIT: Seriously though I never knew Cosmo had a politics section lol.
Quote: There are some 50 cases brought by for-profit companies on this same issue still pending (and many more brought by other organizations), and many of the owners of those companies object to birth control altogether.
Quote: As an employee, you earn those benefits just like you earn your paycheck. And just like your boss has no business telling you how you can use your paycheck, he or she shouldn't be able to pick and choose which services, medications, or procedures are covered in your health insurance benefits.
Makes some pretty valid points.
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By fonewear 2014-07-09 20:54:00
I didn't know anyone bought Cosmo I thought they just read it while waiting in line at the checkout.
Wow he isn't giving up!
George Takei: What if Muslims Owned Hobby Lobby and Tried Imposing Sharia Law on Employees?
Quote: I’ve often said that these conservatives wading into the tricky waters of claiming “religious freedom” to justify breaking (or passing) laws should really be careful what they wish for. It’s advice I’d give to all of those conservatives who are celebrating the Supreme Court’s Hobby Lobby ruling.
And based on his brilliant response to that ruling, George Takei seems to be an individual who understands this as well.
Posting his response on the website for his play Allegiance, Takei made several fantastic points concerning not only the hypocrisy of this ruling, but the dangerous precedent it could set going forward.
Takei wrote, “The ruling elevates the rights of a FOR-PROFIT CORPORATION over those of its women employees and opens the door to all manner of claims that a company can refuse services based on its owner’s religion.”
“Think about the ramifications: As Justice Ginsberg’s stinging dissent pointed out, companies run by Scientologists could refuse to cover antidepressants, and those run by Jews or Hindus could refuse to cover medications derived from pigs (such as many anesthetics, intravenous fluids, or medications coated in gelatin).” he continued.
And that’s the slippery slope for which this ruling potentially opens the door. Where will the line be drawn where you say to a company, “Sorry, but your religious beliefs aren’t protected?”
What if someone who owns a corporation is anti-vaccine? What if they then say it’s against their religious beliefs for their company to offer health care that covers vaccines? Based upon this Supreme Court ruling, they could theoretically be within their rights to claim that.
But the best point Takei made was in a direct shot at right-wing ignorance. He wrote, “In this case, the owners happen to be deeply Christian; one wonders whether the case would have come out differently if a Muslim-run chain business attempted to impose Sharia law on its employees.”
As we all know, when these conservatives talk about “religious freedoms” they’re really only referring to Christianity.
He also went on to make the point that Hobby Lobby has invested in companies which produce the morning after pill and it gets much of its inventory from China, a country where forced abortions are common.
In other words, they’re blatant hypocrites.
“Hobby Lobby is not a church. It’s a business — and a big one at that,” Takei continued. “Businesses must and should be required to comply with neutrally crafted laws of general applicability. Your boss should not have a say over your healthcare. Once the law starts permitting exceptions based on “sincerely held religious beliefs” there’s no end to the mischief and discrimination that will ensue. Indeed, this is the same logic that certain restaurants and hotels have been trying to deploy to allow proprietors to refuse service to gay couples.”
Once again, he’s absolutely right.
For some reason conservatives seem to think that a lack of options equates to “more” freedom. Before this ruling, women working at Hobby Lobby had the option to have access to these contraceptives. Now they won’t.
If the owners of Hobby Lobby reject specific types of contraceptives, that’s fine. They don’t have to use them. But now their beliefs are being imposed on women who might not share those same beliefs.
Take a good look, because that’s how an employer can determine an employee’s health care coverage. Because a woman working at Hobby Lobby now can’t get health care coverage for certain contraceptives, not because she’s against them, but because her employer is.
How exactly is that respecting her religious freedoms?
Takei also points out religion is a way many conservatives have tried justifying discrimination against homosexuals. These “religious freedom” bills that essentially give businesses the right to deny service to homosexuals based on their religious beliefs.
The bottom line is, religion has no place in government or in business. If someone wants to express their religious views to others, they need to start a church – not a for-profit corporation.
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