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Denver students walk out of school in protest
Bismarck.Magnuss
サーバ: Bismarck
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Posts: 28615
By Bismarck.Magnuss 2014-09-25 14:51:32
No! This was MY idea!
By Ramyrez 2014-09-25 14:55:57
You could call me Juan Sanchez Villa-Lobos Ramirez.
I mean, it's a mouthful, but.
It'd be new. And true to the naming impetus.
Ragnarok.Nausi
サーバ: Ragnarok
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Posts: 6709
By Ragnarok.Nausi 2014-09-25 15:07:16
Are you really stipulating that advances in medical technology justify the increase? Does that mean that millions have been shortchanged by the system since before these advancements?
By Ramyrez 2014-09-25 15:10:24
Are you really stipulating that advances in medical technology justify the increase? Does that mean that millions have been shortchanged by the system since before these advancements?
I believe that 1) you're underestimating the amount of children now receiving SSI benefits thanks to that court ruling I mentioned. 2) due to technological (ability to access/awareness) and medical advancements, yes the numbers have increased, and 3) Yes, said technology can also make fraud, and learning about how to try to con your way through the process, easier.
There's certainly fraud and inappropriate use of SSD/SSI out there.
But I'm also sure it's a significantly smaller number than you think.
I think you're not properly accounting for the fact that many of those people from 1997 are still alive and receiving benefits...and then many who have begun receiving benefits since are added to that. Those aren't two entirely seperate groups of people; there is significant overlap.
Bahamut.Milamber
サーバ: Bahamut
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Posts: 3691
By Bahamut.Milamber 2014-09-25 15:11:21
Are you really stipulating that advances in medical technology justify the increase? Does that mean that millions have been shortchanged by the system since before these advancements? People live that may have otherwise died? Or at least lived longer?
Bahamut.Milamber
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Posts: 3691
By Bahamut.Milamber 2014-09-25 15:12:44
What really shoild be asked is:
What is an acceptable level of fraudulent activity?
サーバ: Asura
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Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-09-25 15:13:16
There's certainly fraud and inappropriate use of SSD/SSI out there.
But I'm also sure it's a significantly smaller number than you think. I think that it's a much larger number than you think.
The reason why I say this is because when there is businesses actively seeking people to apply for SSI disability benefits, then you know for a fact that it is abused at a high rate.
It's even worse when said businesses do not even hide the fact that they are out to commit fraud either......
By Ramyrez 2014-09-25 15:13:59
Would love to stay and continue this chat, but I do actually have to dash. Enjoy. I'll be back tomorrow to grace you all with the Overwhelming Gospel of Madness of the Great Cthulhu.
サーバ: Asura
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Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-09-25 15:14:58
What really shoild be asked is:
What is an acceptable level of fraudulent activity? Zero.
And anyone who disagrees with me should state (for the record) why it is not only ok to steal from anyone, but acceptable and even encouraged to do so.
I know Jet's reasoning, and I'm sure he would be one of the first to counter this post too. But seriously.
サーバ: Asura
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-09-25 15:15:32
Would love to stay and continue this chat, but I do actually have to dash. Enjoy. I'll be back tomorrow to grace you all with the Overwhelming Gospel of Madness of the Great Cthulhu. Wimp. Spaghetti Monster > all.
Ragnarok.Nausi
サーバ: Ragnarok
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Posts: 6709
By Ragnarok.Nausi 2014-09-25 15:17:00
What really shoild be asked is:
What is an acceptable level of fraudulent activity? That's the crux of it,
Whats acceptable is 0 fraud. I don't make it a habit of paying for fraudulent services. If a auto mechanic screws me or you over with fraudulent services we each demand restitution.
Except not when its a good liberal cause like disability. Then we must not question the fraud, less we're a racist, sexist, bigot, or otherwise don't care about the needy.
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Leviathan.Chaosx
サーバ: Leviathan
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Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-09-25 15:22:21
Back in June when I was crunching all the numbers, there was one number that I could not find exact details on.
Non-civilian U.S. Population: 70,361,000.
Not all of that can possibly be military personal. Even rounded up there were currently 2 million people employed in the military. That would mean each one would have be a family (mother + father) of about 17 children to account for this number.
Illegal immigration came to mind, but even those figures are around 12 million, although that was done in 2006.
I suppose if you add up military + illegal immigration + all members of government and judiciary system and their families maybe that would account for that.
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Bahamut.Milamber
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3691
By Bahamut.Milamber 2014-09-25 15:31:41
What really shoild be asked is:
What is an acceptable level of fraudulent activity? That's the crux of it,
Whats acceptable is 0 fraud. I don't make it a habit of paying for fraudulent services. If a auto mechanic screws me or you over with fraudulent services we each demand restitution.
Except not when its a good liberal cause like disability. Then we must not question the fraud, less we're a racist, sexist, bigot, or otherwise don't care about the needy. The cost to attain a 0% fraud system is absurd, and easily costs far more than the defauded amount once you reach a particular threshold.
A goal of 0% is laudable. A requirement for it is insanity.
サーバ: Asura
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Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-09-25 15:41:56
What really shoild be asked is:
What is an acceptable level of fraudulent activity? That's the crux of it,
Whats acceptable is 0 fraud. I don't make it a habit of paying for fraudulent services. If a auto mechanic screws me or you over with fraudulent services we each demand restitution.
Except not when its a good liberal cause like disability. Then we must not question the fraud, less we're a racist, sexist, bigot, or otherwise don't care about the needy. The cost to attain a 0% fraud system is absurd, and easily costs far more than the defauded amount once you reach a particular threshold.
A goal of 0% is laudable. A requirement for it is insanity. Wait, what?
So, you are saying that the federal government shouldn't even try to cut/eliminate fraud because you think it's impossible?
You do realize that there are already laws and regulations in place to prevent fraud, but since our current administration has made it a habit to ignore those laws and regulations, fraud is more prevalent because of it.
But if they follow the law, fraud would be greatly reduced, reduced enough to make zero fraud sustainable.
I guess governmental fraud is encouraged in Denmark.
Lakshmi.Zerowone
サーバ: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6949
By Lakshmi.Zerowone 2014-09-25 15:56:41
Ooook sooo you're saying that not only is zero % fraud obtainable, but sustainable in a country with a population of 350M.
Now this is an opinion/idealized belief I hope.
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By Bloodrose 2014-09-25 16:01:52
Ooook sooo you're saying that not only is zero % fraud obtainable, but sustainable in a country with a population of 350M.
Now this is an opinion/idealized belief I hope. Actually, I think he's saying "if criminals followed the letter of the law, there wouldn't be any more crime"
By Jetackuu 2014-09-25 16:02:04
What really shoild be asked is:
What is an acceptable level of fraudulent activity? Zero.
And anyone who disagrees with me should state (for the record) why it is not only ok to steal from anyone, but acceptable and even encouraged to do so.
I know Jet's reasoning, and I'm sure he would be one of the first to counter this post too. But seriously. I'll counter your post, but because your asserted combined premises are totally out of whack.
While wanting 0% fraud is fine, it's definitely not a realistic situation, nor cost effective to maintain.
You're speaking of idealism when I like to work more with realism.
Who encourages anyone to steal from anyone? are you losing your mind?
The question that should be asked (and can be determined rather easily actually) is what level of fraud do we want to actually spend time combating until we're actually in the red by combating it?
This is the voter ID *** all over again.
By Jetackuu 2014-09-25 16:03:17
What really shoild be asked is:
What is an acceptable level of fraudulent activity? That's the crux of it,
Whats acceptable is 0 fraud. I don't make it a habit of paying for fraudulent services. If a auto mechanic screws me or you over with fraudulent services we each demand restitution.
Except not when its a good liberal cause like disability. Then we must not question the fraud, less we're a racist, sexist, bigot, or otherwise don't care about the needy. The cost to attain a 0% fraud system is absurd, and easily costs far more than the defauded amount once you reach a particular threshold.
A goal of 0% is laudable. A requirement for it is insanity. Wait, what?
So, you are saying that the federal government shouldn't even try to cut/eliminate fraud because you think it's impossible?
You do realize that there are already laws and regulations in place to prevent fraud, but since our current administration has made it a habit to ignore those laws and regulations, fraud is more prevalent because of it.
But if they follow the law, fraud would be greatly reduced, reduced enough to make zero fraud sustainable.
I guess governmental fraud is encouraged in Denmark. What in particular has this "administration" done to circumvent regulations that are supposed to prevent fraud?
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-09-25 16:06:04
I love how so many people just give up on even the simplest tasks.
"Oh noes, it's too hard to follow the law, so let's break it!"
By Jetackuu 2014-09-25 16:17:27
I love how so many people just give up on even the simplest tasks.
"Oh noes, it's too hard to follow the law, so let's break it!" Again with deducing something that had nothing to do with what we were talking about.
/slowclap
If you think there's something simple about getting rid of human corruption then you have a hard dose of reality yet to sink in.
Lakshmi.Flavin
サーバ: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 18466
By Lakshmi.Flavin 2014-09-25 16:17:58
What really shoild be asked is:
What is an acceptable level of fraudulent activity? That's the crux of it,
Whats acceptable is 0 fraud. I don't make it a habit of paying for fraudulent services. If a auto mechanic screws me or you over with fraudulent services we each demand restitution.
Except not when its a good liberal cause like disability. Then we must not question the fraud, less we're a racist, sexist, bigot, or otherwise don't care about the needy. The cost to attain a 0% fraud system is absurd, and easily costs far more than the defauded amount once you reach a particular threshold.
A goal of 0% is laudable. A requirement for it is insanity. Wait, what?
So, you are saying that the federal government shouldn't even try to cut/eliminate fraud because you think it's impossible?
You do realize that there are already laws and regulations in place to prevent fraud, but since our current administration has made it a habit to ignore those laws and regulations, fraud is more prevalent because of it.
But if they follow the law, fraud would be greatly reduced, reduced enough to make zero fraud sustainable.
I guess governmental fraud is encouraged in Denmark. I beleive he was saying that the cost to acheive such a goal would outweigh the benefit of acheiving said goal. Kind of like spending a billion to stop a hundred mil in fraud.
I don't see anywhere that he said they shouldn't try to eliminate fraud nor did he say that they should do nothing to stop it.
He even stated that the ideal was worthy of praise...
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Lakshmi.Zerowone
サーバ: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6949
By Lakshmi.Zerowone 2014-09-25 16:29:13
That's exactly what Milamber said but it went over the head of some our argumentative and one dimensional posters.
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Lakshmi.Zerowone
サーバ: Lakshmi
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Posts: 6949
By Lakshmi.Zerowone 2014-09-25 16:31:12
Ooook sooo you're saying that not only is zero % fraud obtainable, but sustainable in a country with a population of 350M.
Now this is an opinion/idealized belief I hope. Actually, I think he's saying "if criminals followed the letter of the law, there wouldn't be any more crime"
How can a criminal be a criminal if they do not commit a crime?
Just something to ponder with respect to the vocabulary used.
Then to follow up the train of thought:
If no one commits a crime then what's the point of law enforcement or any form of oversight?
If these things do not exist how would we be sure if crimes/fraud occur?
Leviathan.Chaosx
サーバ: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-09-25 16:45:38
It's not a crime unless you get caught.
By Bloodrose 2014-09-25 16:49:04
Ooook sooo you're saying that not only is zero % fraud obtainable, but sustainable in a country with a population of 350M.
Now this is an opinion/idealized belief I hope. Actually, I think he's saying "if criminals followed the letter of the law, there wouldn't be any more crime"
How can a criminal be a criminal if they do not commit a crime?
Just something to ponder with respect to the vocabulary used.
Then to follow up the train of thought:
If no one commits a crime then what's the point of law enforcement or any form of oversight?
If these things do not exist how would we be sure if crimes/fraud occur? The vocab was intentional.
But, since people like to shy away from their own group's fraudulent activities, or use "That law isn't enforceable!" or "I don't agree with that law" as excuses to break the law, well...
You get the idea.
Then again, the amount of fraudulent disability claims have actually gone down since the Clinton Era, more people are living longer lives, but accident rates, due to lazy employers creating working conditions in the workforce that would otherwise see them shut down, and committing fraud by bribing health inspectors, or by using expired products etc. against the health code violations of each individual state that cause more food poisoning and death in growing numbers every year...
But it's somehow the liberals' fault for these conservatives running the show. Particularly when just as many, if not more of the jobless conservative supporters defraud the system.
The argument that people receiving welfare that they have big screen TV's, while they sit at home doing *** all, shows just how out of touch with reality some people are.
Many of them can't find jobs because of where they live - i.e. the job market in their area is almost 0. Meaning there's an oversaturation of people looking for work in an area with minimal amount of jobs available.
"Well, get a better education, you can get a better job" is really *** stupid. Think of all the people who went to school to get a degree in their field of study, only to be stuck with tens of thousands, if not a hundred thousand dollars in debt, and unable to find work because there's no market for it.
Do you people even understand the concept of critical thinking when dealing with problems like this, where keeping the workforce maintainable and healthy, actually lines the pockets of the American people more than keeping them on disability? That it would increase American consumer faith in locally made and manufactured products, due to the higher quality working conditions provided, rather than the subpar ones that would never pass federal or state standards, which are already very, VERY loosely monitored, and thus unable to be as strictly enforced as they should be?
Lakshmi.Zerowone
サーバ: Lakshmi
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Posts: 6949
By Lakshmi.Zerowone 2014-09-25 18:08:53
Preaching to the choir.
Cerberus.Pleebo
サーバ: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9720
By Cerberus.Pleebo 2014-09-25 18:35:44
Back in June when I was crunching all the numbers, there was one number that I could not find exact details on.
Non-civilian U.S. Population: 70,361,000.
Not all of that can possibly be military personal. Even rounded up there were currently 2 million people employed in the military. That would mean each one would have be a family (mother + father) of about 17 children to account for this number.
Illegal immigration came to mind, but even those figures are around 12 million, although that was done in 2006.
I suppose if you add up military + illegal immigration + all members of government and judiciary system and their families maybe that would account for that. Civilian non-institutional population
Your (uncited) number includes the institutionalized population along with those on active military duty.
By daoming 2014-09-25 19:15:02
So uh are we gonna talk about the students or are we going to wave around our wannabe political shlongs all day? I want a news update here people.
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サーバ: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 8022
By Shiva.Viciousss 2014-09-25 19:17:51
So uh are we gonna talk about the students or are we going to wave around our wannabe political shlongs all day? I want a news update here people.
So go find one?
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By daoming 2014-09-25 19:19:40
So uh are we gonna talk about the students or are we going to wave around our wannabe political shlongs all day? I want a news update here people.
So go find one?
I found it, I'm just intrigued that this thread that is titled for Denver students, is more focused on whatever the hell they're talking about with the populations and whatnot.
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Quote: Denver area students walk out of school in protest
Students protest outside of Ralston Valley High School, Tuesday, Sept. 23, 2014, in Arvada, Colo.
ARVADA, Colo. (AP) — Hundreds of students walked out of classrooms around suburban Denver on Tuesday in protest over a conservative-led school board proposal to focus history education on topics that promote citizenship, patriotism and respect for authority, in a show of civil disobedience that the new standards would aim to downplay.
The youth protest involving six high schools in the state's second-largest school district follows a sick-out from teachers that shut down two high schools in the politically and economically diverse area that has become a key political battleground.
Student participants said their demonstration was organized by word of mouth and social media. Many waved American flags and carried signs, including messages that read "There is nothing more patriotic than protest."
"I don't think my education should be censored. We should be able to know what happened in our past," said Tori Leu, a 17-year-old student who protested at Ralston Valley High School in Arvada.
The school board proposal that triggered the walkouts in Jefferson County calls for instructional materials that present positive aspects of the nation and its heritage. It would establish a committee to regularly review texts and course plans, starting with Advanced Placement history, to make sure materials "promote citizenship, patriotism, essentials and benefits of the free-market system, respect for authority and respect for individual rights" and don't "encourage or condone civil disorder, social strife or disregard of the law."
The proposal from Julie Williams, part of the board's conservative majority, has not been voted on and was put on hold last week. She didn't return a call from The Associated Press seeking comment Tuesday, but previously told Chalkbeat Colorado, a school news website, that she recognizes there are negative events that are part of U.S. history that need to be taught.
Students protest outside of Ralston Valley High School, Sept. 23, 2014, in Arvada, Colo.
"There are things we may not be proud of as Americans," she said. "But we shouldn't be encouraging our kids to think that America is a bad place."
A student demonstrator, Tyrone G. Parks, a senior at Arvada High School, said Tuesday that the nation's foundation was built on civil protests, "and everything that we've done is what allowed us to be at this point today. And if you take that from us, you take away everything that America was built off of."
The proposal comes from an elected board with three conservative members who took office in November. The other two board members were elected in 2011 and oppose the new plan, which was drafted in response to a national framework for teaching history that supporters say encourages discussion and critical thinking. Detractors, however, say it puts an outsize emphasis on the nation's problems.
Tension over high school education has cropped up recently in Texas, where conservative school board officials are facing criticism over new textbooks. Meanwhile, in South Carolina, conservatives have called on an education oversight committee to ask the College Board, which oversees Advanced Placement courses, to rewrite their framework to make sure there is no ideological bias.
The College Board says the outline provides a balanced view of American history, and officials plan clarify instructions to teachers to make that clear by the end of the month.
Participating students were not punished, school district spokeswoman Lynn Setzer said. They will receive unexcused absences unless their parents call to relay permission for missed classes, Setzer said.
Superintendent Dan McMinimee has met with some of the students and renewed his offer to continue discussions on the issue. "I respect the right of our students to express their opinions in a peaceful manner," he said. "I do, however, prefer that our students stay in class."
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