Gear Discussion/Help SAM

So you post a parse that's not even using the same weapon, with a guy who probably doesn't have 5 iki merits (And yes you need 5 for polearm) and the rest I don't know without full gear setups. But the first thing that strikes me is your accuracy is a full 14% higher than his. Switching out hauby alone shouldn't cause that big a gap, especially since he's using Aces vs your Askar. So without full gear setups, something strikes me as being fishy about that parse.

I gave a very specific case where askar comes out ahead and you totally ignore it, thanks for playing.

And I didn't ignore the one person who actually posted math, I responded about why his calculations were incorrect like I was hoping SOMEONE could do with mine, but unfortunately noone has been able to yet because you're all so convinved about it already.

Btw, does the parse show how many atks by each person? Just out of curiosity.

Like I said though, when you're doing math, you rely on everything, you rely on your acc being 95% in the same way, you can't do theoretical stuff without assuming things will happen close to their expected percentages.

I'm not sure what you mean in this line about 4 hit builds, could you try and rephrase it? lol

And it does take math, because sometimes what you think is common sense may not neccesarily be right, or else the world would still be flat.

I swear I've typed this like 5 times already, but this like totally ignores the real point. I'm saying that by using a Askar+haste piece(normally dusk hands) will beat using hauby/store tp piece (normally hachi hands) under VERY specific circumstances, aka 4 iki merits and I guess it was assumed it should be GK as you gear stp totally differently for polearm.

The real point is that you're wrong. You didn't even know you need to wear Chivalrous Chain during TP phase if you're using askar body to maintain a 6-hit. I was the one that showed you the math, and you're *** ignoring THAT. You're wrong, just plain wrong. It's not going to happen, you're WRONG.

You have to be a *** to get through to people who aren't going to see the light no matter what. You have to bash their face in until they start losing faith in their own ideals, but it's just a shame I'm arguing with someone who doesn't have a damn brain in the first place.

And sure, using polearm is skewing the argument. It just shows how badly Askar Korazin -CAN- effect your accuracy. I've never heard of an accuracy boost to Zanshin attacks either, which makes me think he's padding his argument with "japanese testimonial" just to try to make himself look smart. I've dealt with SAM's that have had Ikishoten merited. They flat suck. I don't need to argue this anymore, the fact that anyone's even listening to him makes me sick. I'll go back to KI now, where the real SAM's discuss the job. Want some real info without idiots spewing IkishotenOMG? Come see us.

... I just noticed Tarowyn's SAM is level 25. You all gonna keep listening to him now?

No, I replied to that by saying, if you just add store tp to the WS either in the form of hachi feet or AF+1 legs (realized recently AF+1 legs work good for this, wasn't in my original reply) you maintain it with minimal/zero loss of ws dmg (unless you're using like hachiryu legs or something). I've pointed out, this is not the ACTUAL 6 hit build I use, it's a theoretical one that is not super hard to get that I put out because the one I use is rather unusual. You can say I'm wrong all you want, but until you can say where the math is wrong, it's just baseless assumptions

Now can you respond to what I said about the parse? lol

Because everyone's so hard up on getting perfect acc and noone bothers to actually CHECK how zanshin works. On the other hand, you also don't have any evidence it DOESN'T have an acc boost. The Japanese have tested, but you're just conveniently ignoring it and saying oh well, all my friends think it doesn't, that's so much more reliable. Like I've said before, if you can prove the math wrong go ahead and do it, but the problem is you CAN'T because you either don't understand it well enough or just don't bother because you're too set in your ways.


Seriously, also responded to this before, does noone have multiple chars in your world?

Edit:
Truthfully, half the reason I started this conversation was because I feel like there's a lot of misinformation on zanshin out there, so if this causes even one person to go out and test and post their results showing I'm RIGHT about proc rate/acc, that's already a win for me.

No, the parse doesn't show how many attacks by each person. Honestly, I couldn't care if he had iki merits. It wouldn't have made up the 14% accuracy difference. Why? Because even if you rounded that down to 75% Accuracy... He'd be missing one out of four. Add in your "theory" of a 25% accuracy buff to each missed swing with Zanshin, it's not going to make it up. What if you miss again? Where you missed that SECOND time, putting your accuracy rating even lower, the SAM who isn't gearing to miss just got TP and WS'd.

My point is that this job is MUCH better if you gear it properly, tell Ikishoten to screw itself, get an NQ haub, and most of all... Have fun. You're going to be much happier if you parse 93% accuracy rather than if you end up with 84% and said "I STILL GOTS MOAR TP THAN U DID WHEN I MISSED THAT FIRST OEN!"

Do you not realize how stupid relying on something that's not even going to come into play 50% of the time? Even if it's 40%, and you have say... 85% accuracy, you're missing fifteen out of 100. You're only going to have Zanshin proc on 6 of those 15 missed swings. So, you could have just had a normal 6-hit, with normal accuracy gear, and not missed those in the first place. Do you not see how the Iki route is useless when you're doing the rest of the job to it's full potential?

Called it, whoop whoop. \o/

I remember this one when HQ Hauby and Osode were endlessly compared for WS and because everyone was so super positive of the math it was just assumed that Hauby was most definitely tops due to the accuracy, even pre-stat buff because KI said so. And then I believe it was Hakamaru with ALLAH that discovered the WS accuracy boost. lol The details may be fuzzy or even wrong as I think it's assumed all things end-game come from BG or Rukenshin, but the point being it's very easy to "know you're right" ..until you aren't! Taro's given the specifics on his claims and it is by no means an "Askar > Hauby" argument of generalities, it's that Askar works best for him in [i]his situation[/u] and his combination of merits. The whole argument is to prove why that is, if I'm not mistaken.

Hakamaru posts on KI as well. And sure, it may be optimal for him in his situation. I'll give you that. It's still not the situation of 90% of the Samurai who have access to Rajas ring where he doesn't, and still wear Askar Korazin because "OMGZ DOUBAL ATTACK!" I'm fearing the worst when someone spews this information, because people who don't know better are going to just grab that Korazin and think they're leet, when in fact they could have done it better in the first place.

And taro, would you mind posting your information in regards to Zanshin? I can have it translated. I'm interested to see this.

Sorry, been busy all day :(

RE: Zanshin/Ikishoten

If you are at 90% = 1/10 * 4/10 * 19/20 = +3.8% accuracy from Zanshin.

If you are at 95% = 1/20 * 4/10 * 19/20 = +1.9% accuracy from Zanshin.

At 20% = 4/5 * 4/10 * 1/4 = +8% accuracy from Zanshin.

These can be synonymous with total damage increase honestly.

To compare TP gain,

Assume 16.7 TP/hit, and with 5/5 Ikishoten you'll receive 31.7 TP/hit (+15).

Assuming you are at 90% accuracy with both, over the course of 1000 hits:

With Ikishoten:
900 hits of 16.7tp + 38 hits of 31.7tp = 16234.6tp

Without:
938 hits of 16.7tp = 15664.6tp

Therefore 5/5 Ikishoten at 90% accuracy is (16234.6-15664.6)/15664.6 = +3.64% WS frequency. Multiply that by the WS damage/TP damage ratio coefficient for SAM and you get 3.64 * 0.6 = ~+2.2% damage. Not very significant ;x

Askar vs NQ Hauby this time!

Gonna make this fullish:

Dusk Gloves [Attack +5 Haste +3%] + Askar Korazin [STR+5 Attack+12 DA+2%] vs Hachiman Kote [STR+4] + Haubergeon [STR+5 DEX+5 Attack+10 Accuracy+10].

Attack5 + Haste3 + STR5 + Attack12 + DA2 vs STR4 + STR5 + DEX5 + Attack10 + Accuracy10

STR5 Attack17 Haste3 DA2 vs STR9 Attack10 DEX5 Accuracy10
STR5 Attack20.75 Haste3 DA2 vs STR9 Attack16.75 DEX5 Accuracy13.75
Attack4 Haste3 DA2 vs STR4 DEX5 Acc13.75

DEX is hard to quantify so we'll leave it out ;x

Attack4 Haste3 DA2 vs STR4 Acc6.875%

Dealing with "linears",

Attack4 = ~4/425 * 0.4 = ~0.376% damage, slightly more depending on level of mob.
DA2 on /war = 2/117 = +1.71% raw damage, multiplied by your accuracy of ~83% for landed ones = 0.83 * 1.71 = 1.41% damage.

STR4 = ~1/80 * 0.4 = 0.5% damage.

So by base stats, Askar has an advantage of approximately 3.0% damage, factoring Ikishoten as showed below.

Factoring Ikishoten

At 90% accuracy, Ikishoten = +2.2% damage using the above math.
Using 83% accuracy for simplicity,

If you are at 83% = 17/100 * 4/10 * 19/20 = +6.47% accuracy from Zanshin.

With Ikishoten:
830 hits of 16.7tp + 65 hits of 31.7tp = 15921.5tp

Without:
895 hits of 16.7tp = 14946.5tp

= +6.52% WS frequency. Multiply that by the WS damage/TP damage ratio coefficient for SAM and you get 6.52 * 0.6 = ~+3.9% damage.

3.9% - 2.2% = 1.7% more damage from Ikishoten in Askar build than Haubergeon build.

Haste vs accuracy -- we will say with Haubergeon, the SAM has 90% accuracy which is reasonable.

... therefore increase in damage from NQ Hauby's evasion = 6.875 / 83.125 = ~8.27% damage.

After "taking away" Askar's base stats advantage, you are left with 8.27 - 3.0 = 5.27% resultant damage to compare with haste.

What base haste is required to beat this?

3/(100 - (x+3)) = 0.0527
3 = 0.0527(100 - x - 3)
3 = 5.27 - 0.0527x - 0.1581
x = 40.1%~

Therefore if Dusk Gloves takes you from 41% => 42%, Askar build will win. Any less accuracy than that, and you need more haste to overcome. This is with a NQ Haubergeon.

Conclusions

Note the above figure which is indeed doably low is if you merit your build around Askar (ie, 5/5 Ikishoten)... I also neglect to take into account food choices, if the Haubergeon SAM decides to eat something potent.

If you do not have Ikishoten, the Haste required before Dusk Gloves is 55% or greater for the Askar build to win.

3/(100 - (x+3)) = 0.07
3 = 0.07(100 - x - 3)
3 = 7 - 0.07x - 0.21
x = 54.1%~

This also assumes that you will have those accuracy figures and critically that Zanshin proc rate is 40% when we consider Ikishoten.

Basically, reaffirms the statement to use Haubergeon unless you are wasting some of its accuracy or building SPECIFICALLY for an Askar build. If you have Usukane Feet, Askar is fairly useless even at capped accuracy levels.

Yes, I know a lot of the math is not strictly accurate... it's meant to just be a model. You can't manipulate percentages in the way I have for instance, though the difference will be small.

Well, one thing that bothered me is based on how we generally calculate acc, the 14 acc drop from hauby shouldn't equal a 14% drop in accuracy, should only be 7%, so I was wondering about his other tp gear, lol. And the reason I asked about his number of hits is I was wondering how much haste he has, whether he was actually trading acc for store tp intelligently or if he was just gimpinng it up.

It does kind of sound silly in theory, but like I said, the math actually backs it up. If the math is wrong, that's cool, but if it's actually right, it's interesting information to know. And in actual practice, you can't really cap accuracy on everything anyways, so in stuff like merits you can wear askar/dusk and benefit from it, fighting something like kirin/odin/whatever, you can use hauby/hachi/whatever acc and you'll still get benefit from iki. I posted somewhere above that if you're falling below 78% acc, then you definitely want to still add acc (78% being the lowest point where the 25% boost gets you to 95% acc). But above that the math is saying, more haste = good. I guess if you don't believe the acc boost it's hard to come to a common ground on this, anyone feel like testing? lol

Gonna start with correcting some assumptions, the way you calculate the effectiveness of tp is kinda weird, overall tp is not so much an issue as modifying the tp needed to get to 100% tp. If you look at my calculations this is covered, including taking into account the fact that you can overtp if the zanshin hit occurs on the last hit. Another thing, it looks like you don't understand how iki works. It doesn't give you just meritx3 tp straight out (12/15), it gives you that amount then multiplied by your STP (17.5/21.9). That and that is the only reason using iki even takes hits off your 6hit. On that note, you don't need 5 iki merits for GK, if you want the benefit on polearm you do, but that's up to each person depending on how much they use polearm.

Truthfully I feel like combining it the way you're doing makes it really makes it unneccesarily complicated while at the same time taking away from it's accuracy, that's why I split it into dot and tp to begin, it's more straightforward that way. Also, the whole dot/ws dmg ratio thing really only is applicable to merit mobs, ws dmg ratios will tend to be much higher for hnm's and what not.

I can kind of understand that, but at the same time, people will do go "OMGZ DOUBAL ATTACK" anyways so, lol. My situation is a little different, but it should apply to the fairly standard eq build I posted above, something which is kind of mid range difficulty to get. I guess I just wanted to show that iki merits did have a place, that even the hated askar body could be put to good use in the proper situation. It just happens that it's also what I use, lol.

I hope this link works since it's a search, but here's a link to some of the testing. There might be more on other threads, but whoever is gonna translate can look through it. This is essentially a searchable record of all the japanese testing threads.

http://bdbk.s41.xrea.com/pastlog/test/read.php?bbs=verify&key=1150979541&nofirst=true&search=%8Ec%90S&andor=AND

If that doesn't work, just have the person search for 残心 from this page.

http://bdbk.s41.xrea.com/pastlog/verify/

Edit:
487, 489, 563 have the most pertinent information. Test cases are a little small unfortunately, I'd have to look more to see if further testing was done later.

Btw, it's not just a 14 accuracy drop from Haub to Askar Korazin. You also have to drop PCC for Chivalrous Chain, making it a 19 accuracy drop. That's still 8%, at bare minimum. I mentioned that earlier in the thread before the shitstorm.

***, forum ate post. lol Damn that's a giantmathwall if I've ever seen one. D:

Totally agree with you actually, but I don't think you, myself or anyone else should care too much about some random guy that doesn't want to sift through the details and see the reasons behind why people are making certain decisions. I had something a bit lengthier written out before, I'll just say that if players aren't going to take the time to research and analyze their own situation individual to them then they deserve to be the low-end of whatever job they play.

I hate to see it though. I'll see Xxcloudstrifexx running around Whitegate. He's wearing his Askar Korazin... Then I see Shinsoku... Then I see him TP'n in a Flame Ring later... Then I notice he's got a *** Speed Belt. Or a Cerberus Mantle +1. Or even Usukane Sune-ate combined with a Hachiman Domaru. I've seen it too much, I wish the endless spam of morons would just end, thus my frustration with things like this thread. It ends up steering people the wrong way, because the idiots will think this thread is pro-Korazin, when in fact it's not fully.

And I'm going to try to figure out the info on that japanese page, hope I can translate it decently.

I responded by saying you can leave out Chiv and just use AF+1 legs or Hachi feet though. And was the guy in the parse actually using Chiv? And that guy had a 14% drop, that's pretty massive, lol. Was he tping in str rings or something?

Man Taro, you're full of it, when 40% > 60% I'll change my view. Since 40 being a smaller % in my view is the same as believing the world is flat.

I'm not making hypothesis, I'm pointing out straight facts. With less acc in an uncapped acc situation (most endgame/meriting) you're going to miss more, that doesn't take rocket science to understand. With a less than 40% chance to hit a zanshin (which is rounding up.. it's probably closer to 35% with your lack of acc) you're not going to tp faster the majority of the time. Wait why am I even saying 'yours'? You don't even have the job leveled.

Anyways you should at least hide your levels before posting on a job you don't even have leveled. Idc if you claim it's another character, with the flaws everyone's pointed out in your ideas I could only come to the conclusion it's a bought account anyways.

The whole not wanting to bring Japanese parses thing yet claiming them to be your support is bs until proven otherwise. For all we know you're just another 13yr old trying to cover up a lie.

And tbh askar isn't worth the trouble of getting even if it's better 5% of the time unless you have DRG or Amanomurakumo and no Usukane haramaki.

But yeah, this zanshin dependence reminds me of ppl that use to try to glorify Shinsoku's tp drain. Anyways I'm done responding to that Taro guy until he comes out with one of his 'Japanese parses'.

I can kinda understand that, see sams walking around in full askar and stuff and I'm just like, that's great. It doesn't bother me too much unless I actually have to party with them though.

At least I've put enough disclaimers in this thread now that they can be pointed out if someone wants to use it as evidence for pure pro-askar, lol.

It was Tomoe, which has 480 delay. You don't need to even have ANY Store TP outside of merits to keep a 6-hit in that case. I personally have a 5-hit with Tomoe, lol.

And sure, you can use AF+1 legs or Hachiman Sune-ate, but isn't the point of your set being able to stay away from Hachiman anyways? I understand that's for the TP phase, sure. I still don't see this working, because I believe it forces you to WS in Korazin, does it not?

Actually, I just worked the numbers, you have to WS in both AF+1 legs and Hachiman Sune-ate to get a 6-hit out of this set without sacrificing both Rutter Sabatons and Shura Haidate(+1) or even Hachiryu Haidate. I WS in Hachiman Sune-ate though, because I use Hachi feet and Askar Manopolas. I'm actually about to change that to Dusk gloves, just because I've hit the spot where I don't need the accuracy on those anymore in most situations.

Truly, would you be so quick to give up the obvious boost that Kirin's Osode gives you for that 2% Double Attack? Now that I'm working with it, I won't trade it for the world.

Ahh, and just when I thought we were done with the mindless flaming.

Except 40% doesn't take into account the haste difference, hence math, hence read the whole thread again. And 3rd time now, multiple chars, SAM is lvled on a different char, lol.

The straight side by side parses don't exist as far as I'm aware of. Also as I've said before, parses are inherently reliable because of the human factor in them. I could totally skew a parse either way if I wanted to easily. And the only thing I've referenced Japanese sources on is the proc rate and acc bonus of zanshin which I just posted the link to the test results to.

Once more, the math takes into account the 40% proc rate, but STILL comes out ahead, so try and understand the math before you just keep repeating the same stuff.

You're not getting 40% zanshin hits guy. That would assume 100% hit rate on zanshins and sorry, that's not going to happen with your lacking acc.

I'd like to know how 3 haste is going to cover and beat out your lack of hit rate, and don't tell me zanshin is going to b/c given the activation rate and having to hit on that as well, that is total bs.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I meant, whether he was using any store tp to chop off another hit or not, considering the whole debate is about whether you want to sacrifice haste or acc to maintain an x-hit build.

Hrm, lemme review the numbers real quick just to see, let's see which of us is miscalculating, lol. I'm getting the following
Base TP: 11.5
TP hit: 11.5*1.46=16.79 round down to 16.7 (rajas+askar+brutal)
WS hit: 11.5*1.45=16.67 round down to 16.6 (rajas+af+1+brutal)

16.7*5 = 83.5
83.5+16.6 = 100.1

You getting something else?

No, I'm getting 40% * .95 which is 38% acc. And 95% zanshin acc is perfectly doable if you get a 25% boost to acc on zanshins. But as stated, this is all accounted for in the math already. So understand the math of it before you keep repeating yourself.

38% is still way lower than 1/2. You stated you're getting 2x the tp to make up for the misses, but you're hitting less than 1/2 the time with that bonus when you do miss. The 'math' doesn't add up there, so again until 40% > 60% it's flawed.

And to make my point perfectly clear, I could care less about askar part of this. I'm just trying to show you that your reliance on your bought account's zanshin is fail.

hahaha, it's so true, but honestly nothing I've ever said to anyone like that has ever changed their mind. At best I think I got someone to trade-up a Shinsoku for an Onimaru merely because they were going to make money off the swap. lol I do see your point.

He's said multiple times that he has multiple characters. Why would anyone argue on behalf of a specific job, gear and merit distribution if they didn't even have it in the first place? lol He also listed the Japanese sites he's making references to earlier, and they're merely information regarding Zanshin activation rate and accuracy boost, I think. Also, no not all of his Zanshin hits are making up the misses, but when they do connect they equate to double the TP of a normal hit, if that's what you're arguing, I'm not sure.

If you're switching off of Askar hands, why not swap to Hachi hands and use haste feet until you have Usu feet? Just out of curiosity.

Just not listening are you, the 12% you're missing is made up for and surpassed by the 3% haste. And I obviously understand this game far better than you since you can't even understand the math I put out.