The Last Dance II: The Show Must Go On

Whats everyone getting for self cures on dnc. I get cw3 900ish cw4 1300ish cw5 1700ish.

Ah, I only noticed the 41%+9% test case.

That's quite a silly way to do it and is definitely a bug.

Report pleaaaaase

I'm banned from the forums and my account is inactive anyway! Plus, only the localization team likes my reports!

I've reported it already. http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/47813-Waltz-potency-and-Potency-of-Waltz-effects-received-don-t-stack-correctly

SE really does not want people to report stuff.

@Wormfeeder I'll check numbers when I'm home. I'm in a meeting at work now. \o/

I'm not sure you would need (or even what gear you would change?) for different Waltz targets, but no. As far as I know there is no function that I've ever seen or found for that. I'm sure one could be made though.


3: 855
4: 1266
5: 1630

I don't stack Vit/Chr gear though, because I'm a lazy loser.

Another thing i just tested was Slither Gloves +1 vs Horos Bangles +1. Other W.Potency gear were applied. Target was myself.

Slither Gloves +1 = Waltz Potency +5, VIT+26, CHR+17 (43) - Set Waltz Potency = 51%
Waltz III = 912

Horos Bangles +1 = VIT+32, CHR+26 (58) - Set Waltz Potency = 46%
Waltz III = 930

The lack of stats of Slither makes Horos a stronger choice in spite of the presence of W. Potency, however Horos has Emnity +7, which has been putting me in trouble by getting hate from tankers when i use it successively.

Trying to find a mid term for that, two pieces stood out. Rawhide Gloves with VIT+34, CHR+19 (total of 53) and Umuthi Gloves with VIT+36, CHR+17 (again, total of 53). The result:
Waltz III = 924.
Now you would prefer using Rawhide because of highest charisma. While it doesn't matter to you, since it will be better for other players.

Probably a flawed test, given the bug reported above. Your 46% potency set (depending on your gear) is probably artificially at the 50% cap, due to the received effects not being calculated on the correct side of the equation. I'd be curious to see Taeon Gloves with 5% augment on your test, as they offer 30Vit 15Chr as well as the 5% Waltz Augment. Technically, you could even augment them with 10 more Chr or Vit if you wanted to really min/max.

I'm not sure that received counts towards the cap and anyway i wasn't using asklepian ring, remaining just the 6% of AF body. Given that there's a bug it won't work anyway and the effects of comparison are the same, i don't see the flaw here, but i might just be unable to, i'm not a specialist.

I work with two sets for waltz, one for HP below 50% (full 50% capacity) and another for above 50% (when potency isn't that urgent), wherein i'll replace relic head for anwig and compensate the loss of potency % with slither, making 44% (I mistakenly put 46% before, my bad). My concern here was for the first case, where i was using Horos Bangles +1 for max VIT+CHR, but having lots of enmity as rebound. I'm replacing that piece for one with a slighty decrease in waltz power, but less risky too.

I would like to have a taeon augmented just waltz and it would probably be the best hands option, but i'm honestly fed up with random augments and not willing to pay for it. At least not right now. I'll wait to see what the next escha zone will have to offer before expending millions on stupid random-result rocks.

Interesting approach.
Some would argue it's backwards, but obviously it's entirely dependent on your playstyle.

For me, if I'm under 50%HP then I'm not concerned about potency, I'm concerned with efficiency, and want Anwig so that I can get a 2nd cure off as soon as possible.

If I'm over 50% then I'm not at risk, and would rather have the potency, because the -2 seconds isn't a pressing issue.

I use to use an engaged vs disengaged set for waltz. Where if I'm not engaged use potency, if I am engaged, use anwig but these days, I full time Anwig, and use 2 pieces of Waltz Taeon to be at 48% with Anwig. Although as mentioned above I don't stack Vit/Chr because until I saw your results, I didn't think it was a big deal, but roughly 80 extra hp for a Waltz3 is interesting. I currently fill the empty slots with -dt for no real reason other than that if I'm curing myself, I assumed it to be the most beneficial option relative to my end goal.

What's a waltz?

Here's what you do. Don't use Mote's lua files. Write your own.

Now you create a three different arrays of sets. You have your Haste Array, for your basic TP sets varied on Haste values needed to hit attack speed cap, a second array which is two dimensional, based on a desired level of accuracy which is fixed between the sets, and which basic TP set is currently equipped, and then you have your -DT set.

You will want to have the following haste sets: No Haste, 10% Haste, 15% Haste, 25% Haste, 30% Haste, 40% Haste, Capped Haste. Then, you create a series of sets, for each of those haste set sets that swaps out damage gear for accuracy gear in something like 5-10 accuracy intervals, until the sets all basically become the same at the absolute highest accuracy level, because you've equipped all of your accuracy gear. So if you go from having no haste to Haste II, you can switch from your 10% Haste Set (Haste Samba only), to your 40% Haste Set. And then when you notice your hit rate it not sufficiently high, you can increase your accuracy up in 5-10 accuracy intervals until you either put on all your accuracy gear and are still not hitting, or you've found, within 2.5% to 5% hit rate, the exactly amount of accuracy you need in your given situation.

Then, you have a third array, which is various levels of -DT gear. Your first one, obviously, is going to contain nothing but your Defending Ring, replacing your least DPS-impacting ring, which is probably Rajas for many people. From there, you will have various levels of DT, which could be done in 5 DT increments if you wanted (Start with Twilight Torque, then D Ring, then Torque and D Ring, then Torque, D Ring, Mollusca, then Torque and D Ring and Mollusca and Vocane which will let you cap MDT with plain old Shell V, increasing up through your various levels of PDT until you're in all your defensive gear.

Then, instead of having some complicated system of rules that autmoatically decides what sets you wear, you have three toggles. One cycles you through your TP sets, one cycle through those TP sets various accuracy set overlays, and one cycles through the DT set overlays, so that you, the player, can fine tune, min-max, if you will, your performance in a specific situation.

Then you go on and decide that's not enough, so you write a function that looks at what equipment you are wearing, and calculates your pre-buff accuracy per hand based on what weapons and equipment you are actually going to have on when you are engaged, since if you want to see what it is in your idle set you can just /checkparam.

So now you basically have 60/+ different gear sets. But that's not enough. There's lots of content you do routinely, and while there are various sets within those combinations that will do just fine, you want something TAILORED to your specific endeavor. You've spent dozens of hours killing the same six worms over and over for Job Points, you know exactly what accuracy you need to cap hit rate with Atoyac offhand, and you know exactly what buffs (and debuffs) you will be facing, so now you start custom designing specific gear sets for the things you do.

Then you sit down and realize you can do the exact same thing with gearswap with much less headache.

It's called min-maxing.

Think of it as a three dimensional array of gear sets. One index is Haste, one is Accuracy Desired, one is DT.

Since the possible haste values you will find yourself with are combinations of Haste Samba, Haste 1, Haste 2/GEO-Haste, and March, you can split them up into combinations of 10, 15, and 30 haste. So 0, 10, 15, 25, 30, 40, Cap.

So now you have 7 different base TP sets, split up by how much haste you have on you (and therefore how much dual wield you need in that set to achieve attack speed cap). Now you will have additional "layers" of accuracy gear that will get overlayed on top of these different sets. So since my accuracy tends to bottom out around 960, and I want to have it go up to roughly 1050 in gear, and I'm doing it in roughly 5 accuracy increments, that's 18 different version of accuracy sets for each of those 7 different haste values. It's not exactly 18*7 different sets, though, because they tend to run together at higher accuracy values.

Then there's the various -DT sets that get layered on top of that based on how much DT I want and how much damage/accuracy I'm willing to sacrifice to get it. If you're doing this as 5, 10, 15, 20, 27, everything, then that's six additional sets. So you come out with 18*7*6 different 'TP sets', based on extreme fine-tuning of dual wield, accuracy, and DT gear for the current situation.

You see, Cambion, the problem with you understanding me is not that I'm not min-maxed and don't know what I'm doing.

It's that I am autistically min-maxed in ways you can't understand.

[edit] Try checking out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Array_data_structure

I understood your post. You misunderstood my gif.

Whats the max acc for dnc. Im trying to reach atleast 1000 acc but cant seem to get over 920 with out sacrificing in ither areas. Taeon doesnt seem to want to give me any decent acc from stones.

Given the changes to Ternion Dagger +1, I was thinking Izhiikoh/Ternion+1 could be a very nice (altough inferior) alternative to the other "best in slot" daggers (Nibiru and Ipetam).

Any more articulated thoughts about this?

I hit something over 1100, but that's with Taeon/Rawhide and a *** of other "sacrifices" like breaking earring pairs for Zennaroi Earring.

The "max" should be somewhere around 1150, I guess.

Do you guys find yourselves actually using Dancer these days?

If so, what for?

Anything where you can place a generic DD. Moreso if you also need some of the cool buffs that DNC can provide compared to other DDs (steps, samba, occasional help with cures etc)

For me it's HTB and UNM, since on everything else I pretty much use only mage/support jobs (blame my LS for never calling me on DD! Q_Q)

Actual use cases for me are Escha T3 and HELM sometimes. Sure, it's not "optimal" by quite some margin, but we've been experimenting with less than "optimal" setups a lot for some lulz. Same for VD battlefields.

Then, there's some content where actual job selection for DD doesn't matter. So when it's like "Skudo DD", I may or may not pick DNC.

So, despite the dramatic increase in Dancer DPS, our situation is essentially the same as it has always been. Could use a pimped out Dancer, but if you have another useful job you should probably be on that.


When I left, Terpsichore Dancer was pretty much top of the stack for melee DPS. Is our current situation a generic problem with melee DPS, or have other jobs overtaken us since then?

Skudo will have a clearer picture than mine, but my take on the current scenario is that the majority of people aren't particularly interested in DDs in general.
More specifically a lot of them completely ignore the potential of DNC, maybe because of the lack of enough competent DNC players around, or maybe because of the overflow of lolplayers compared to other jobs, or maybe because to be a good DNC it takes more work than SAM and MNK used to take in their respective periods under the spotlight? (Delve1 era, Delve2 era).
Maybe a bit of everything?

BLU is in a pretty good position as well damage wise atm.
But the main reason I think is that the players' interest moved from DD based setups with mage backup/support into mage based setups with DD used just to be SC openers.


Again, just my personal experience on that, not sure how everybody else feels about it.

It's quite a bit better than that, I think. If you need a DD of some sorts, a good DNC is a good choice for that. The biggest problem in my opinion is the lack of Pyrrhic Kleos <=> Pyrrhic Kleos skillchains, and by extension Pyrrhic Kleos <=> anything else of relevance, seeing how much damage skillchains can do these days. That's mostly a Derpsichore problem though, because non-Derps can just resort to Evisceration without losing much and actually closing/opening Darkness with Fudo/CDC.

That also leads to why I don't always get to DNC, despite its silliness: I can't create Liquefaction (and by extension Fusion/Light for Fire MBs) by myself without crippling my own damage. SAM and BLU can do that without even thinking about it. On the other hand, creating Darkness comes at a smaller price than for SAM or BLU (in my opinion).

For a lot of stuff, "melee DPS" can be neglected; melees essentially are just skillchain machines for people to dump their MBs. At least that's what the "almost ideal" setup dictates, with "ideal" being SCH using Immanence.

"Ideal" however is what your group can come up with and for some things, I actually think that in our group, I'm of more use on DNC than on another job of mine. Which, having GEO and SCH with rather strong nuking gear, is quite a feat, I suppose. Chances are that might be different, if I had Idris/Tupsimati, though.

Edit: I absolutely miss (and don't miss, at the same time) the short period of utter destruction single-wielding Derpsichore and spamming Rudra's Strom on DNC/WAR. Never has feeling OP been so ossum. >.>

Is Evisceration really that much worse than Pyrrhic Kleos for Terpsichore DNC?

Evisceration was harder to gear for. However, when I left (the last spreadsheet I have), Evisceration was only 5% behind PK at high pDIF (2.28 avg) and did 30% more damage than PK at low pDIF (1 avg). The break-even point was 2.05 avg pDIF.

Does anyone have a modern sheet?

The latest version I have: https://goo.gl/tk10gx

At any reasonable ratio, I've found that Pyrrhic Kleos is significantly better than Evisceration on average. Sure, Evisceration would pull off absurd spikes every now and then, but it's behind a good bit in the long run. I think the break-even point I've found some time ago was somewhere around 0.6 ratio, which is like the very low end of whatever is realistic.

On another note, is there anything else with Ternion Dagger (+1), except for adding DNC to it? Just so I don't think/say anything wrong.

Edit: Seeing that you only left "recently", no relevant changes have occurred since then. Which makes me doubt the current spreadsheet's correctness; I actually trust you more than that file. ;-p (Even though the qualitative results I get reflect the spreadsheet results rather well.)

The sheet is missing a Taeon crit set (Crit+3%, Acc/Atk+20, STR/DEX+7), which I find to be superior to other options for Evisceration (except for Rawhide path A body, apparently).

I get PK doing 10% more damage than Evisceration against the Soundsplitter bat with that extra gear and the default buffs/debuffs. Switched the mainhand to Terpsichore 119 and body to Rawhide D for both TP sets, but otherwise left them untouched. With capped pDIF, PK does 40% more damage than Evisceration. Parity is around an average noncrit pDIF of 0.9 (Tojil).

kk, added them. I'm not gonna upload a new version for now, seeing how I would have to do so again in less than 12 hours.

Random playing around seems to have the break-even point for non-Terpsichore at 1.8 ratio, in case someone's interested in that.

Looks like SE put Dancer on reforged Hecatomb. The Hecatomb pieces are pretty similar to the level 75 versions, but the Khepri reforge pretty much changes the purpose of every single piece.

Is there anything we can do with 9 FMs stored we couldn't already do with 7, or is the 1200 JP Gift pointless?