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The Last Dance II: The Show Must Go On
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 162
By Asura.Splendid 2018-09-12 07:02:45
Leviathan.Katriina said: »Its PK spam at 1k.
If you spam Rudra with Sari offhand its 4497.568
That’s more like i was expecting it to be with the new Augs. When I use Terp I never straight up PK spam. I always get AM3 up and spam Rudras for longer fights. Really short fights I prefer Aeneas as things (like Sky gods) don’t last long enough for AM3 to make that much of a difference.
Is Sari offhand better with Terps in this case than Twash?
 Leviathan.Katriina
サーバ: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 860
By Leviathan.Katriina 2018-09-12 07:07:22
Hmmm, it seems I forgot to remove the WSD from Terp XD [Stupid Main Hand onry SE Logic]
Its more like 3740.137
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 162
By Asura.Splendid 2018-09-12 07:09:31
3740.137 with PK spam? :3 Sorry for the questions. I’m just trying to make sure the numbers are accurately being reflected as Aeneas appears to be preferred by most of the community, the numbers reflect a bias towards that weapon. (I’m biased towards Terp, just want to exhaust all options before writing it off).
Leviathan.Katriina
サーバ: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 860
By Leviathan.Katriina 2018-09-12 07:12:09
I want Terp to be on Top too, and that number was with Rudra Spam.
Its really best to wait on Simulation.
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 162
By Asura.Splendid 2018-09-12 07:17:51
Ok ty. I’m looking forward to seeing the result. It’s kinda mind blowing that it would be that low.
By Rainemard 2018-09-12 08:13:47
Who's working on simulation atm? Does the person know how followup attacks work? Since most of us only speculated it's the same as raetic, nobody's actually tested it. Since SE made a translation error on path A and it looking like 50% double damage instead of 50% double attack, maybe it's better to test beforehand.
By Zyx1337 2018-09-12 08:56:32
Looks like I’ll have to get aeonic and empy then; I was really hoping terp would pull ahead. Guess I can’t make much use of this raetic kris +1 :/
By Rainemard 2018-09-12 11:14:34
@Katriina You've assumed follow-up attack will only proc on MH right now right? What's setan path B's placement if you DON'T offhand anything? Curious now, since we do have haste samba to get (close) to delay cap.
 Ramuh.Austar
サーバ: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10481
By Ramuh.Austar 2018-09-12 13:27:22
Who's working on simulation atm? Does the person know how followup attacks work? Since most of us only speculated it's the same as raetic, nobody's actually tested it. Since SE made a translation error on path A and it looking like 50% double damage instead of 50% double attack, maybe it's better to test beforehand. i am and it isn’t like i can’t change something later
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Siren.Kyte
サーバ: Siren
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3332
By Siren.Kyte 2018-09-12 13:29:26
Who's working on simulation atm? Does the person know how followup attacks work? Since most of us only speculated it's the same as raetic, nobody's actually tested it. Since SE made a translation error on path A and it looking like 50% double damage instead of 50% double attack, maybe it's better to test beforehand.
SE explicitly stated that it works the same.
By Rainemard 2018-09-12 13:32:06
Who's working on simulation atm? Does the person know how followup attacks work? Since most of us only speculated it's the same as raetic, nobody's actually tested it. Since SE made a translation error on path A and it looking like 50% double damage instead of 50% double attack, maybe it's better to test beforehand. i am and it isn’t like i can’t change something later Can't wait to see it, godspeed. If it's not too much trouble, can you simulate singlewield in addition to the other combos?
Ramuh.Austar
サーバ: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10481
By Ramuh.Austar 2018-09-12 13:37:55
i can but it won’t be a priority, dancer doesn’t have any strong shields to wear that i can think of off the top of my head. all the functions have been done i just have been working on a much more user friendly gui to have more control for the user
By ScaevolaBahamut 2018-09-12 14:41:19
Ok ty. I’m looking forward to seeing the result. It’s kinda mind blowing that it would be that low.
It is really surprising that it's so far off; frankly kind of enough for me to just say screw it.
Is the assumption here that the player is spamming one WS, so the Rudra sim gets the benefits of self-SCs and the PK sim does not?
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サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 162
By Asura.Splendid 2018-09-12 14:47:10
Ok ty. I’m looking forward to seeing the result. It’s kinda mind blowing that it would be that low.
It is really surprising that it's so far off; frankly kind of enough for me to just say screw it.
Is the assumption here that the player is spamming one WS, so the Rudra sim gets the benefits of self-SCs and the PK sim does not?
Yeah it would be super surprising. I know that there are so many factors that go into calculating the numbers, but augmented Terp is what—2 damage less than augmented Aeneas? It’s missing the TP bonus. We know that helps Rudra. I honestly can’t believe it would be that low either. Right now without augments, I parse very high if not top DPS in various endgame things with Terp.
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 162
By Asura.Splendid 2018-09-12 14:55:21
Ok ty. I’m looking forward to seeing the result. It’s kinda mind blowing that it would be that low.
It is really surprising that it's so far off; frankly kind of enough for me to just say screw it.
Is the assumption here that the player is spamming one WS, so the Rudra sim gets the benefits of self-SCs and the PK sim does not?
Yeah it would be super surprising. I know that there are so many factors that go into calculating the numbers, but augmented Terp is what—2 damage less than augmented Aeneas? It’s missing the TP bonus. We know that helps Rudra. I honestly can’t believe it would be that low either. Right now without augments, I parse very high of not top DPS in various endgame things with Terp.
I guess I should also add that my experiences are all with food buffs, Saber dance, Haste Samba, Marches/Min, Chaos/SAM rolls, Fury/Frailty. A lot of times during the course of a fight I’m gaining TP so quickly that I’m getting Darkness chains in between other DPS. But again, I’m not entirely sure what the math is taking into account.
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By ScaevolaBahamut 2018-09-12 15:13:35
Ok ty. I’m looking forward to seeing the result. It’s kinda mind blowing that it would be that low.
It is really surprising that it's so far off; frankly kind of enough for me to just say screw it.
Is the assumption here that the player is spamming one WS, so the Rudra sim gets the benefits of self-SCs and the PK sim does not?
Yeah it would be super surprising. I know that there are so many factors that go into calculating the numbers, but augmented Terp is what—2 damage less than augmented Aeneas? It’s missing the TP bonus. We know that helps Rudra. I honestly can’t believe it would be that low either. Right now without augments, I parse very high of not top DPS in various endgame things with Terp.
I guess I should also add that my experiences are all with food buffs, Saber dance, Haste Samba, Marches/Min, Chaos/SAM rolls, Fury/Frailty. A lot of times during the course of a fight I’m gaining TP so quickly that I’m getting Darkness chains in between other DPS. But again, I’m not entirely sure what the math is taking into account.
Sure, but buffs affect both equally, right? It shouldn't make (much of) a difference in a relative comparison.
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サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 162
By Asura.Splendid 2018-09-12 15:51:09
Ok ty. I’m looking forward to seeing the result. It’s kinda mind blowing that it would be that low.
It is really surprising that it's so far off; frankly kind of enough for me to just say screw it.
Is the assumption here that the player is spamming one WS, so the Rudra sim gets the benefits of self-SCs and the PK sim does not?
Yeah it would be super surprising. I know that there are so many factors that go into calculating the numbers, but augmented Terp is what—2 damage less than augmented Aeneas? It’s missing the TP bonus. We know that helps Rudra. I honestly can’t believe it would be that low either. Right now without augments, I parse very high of not top DPS in various endgame things with Terp.
I guess I should also add that my experiences are all with food buffs, Saber dance, Haste Samba, Marches/Min, Chaos/SAM rolls, Fury/Frailty. A lot of times during the course of a fight I’m gaining TP so quickly that I’m getting Darkness chains in between other DPS. But again, I’m not entirely sure what the math is taking into account.
Sure, but buffs affect both equally, right? It shouldn't make (much of) a difference in a relative comparison.
Yeah—-you’re absolutely right. I’m just super biased towards the weapon. Seeing it underperform might be “let’s quit the game” territory for me. I guess I could just switch to Aeneas if the math checks out. >:
 Asura.Sechs
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10086
By Asura.Sechs 2018-09-12 16:05:17
Ok ty. I’m looking forward to seeing the result. It’s kinda mind blowing that it would be that low. There are Pros about Terps which slightly change the way you play DNC, offer additional flexibility and depth of gameplay.
All of these plentiful aspects contribute indirectly to your efficiency as a DNC and, most of all, to your personal pleasure playing the job.
This can't be measured with a DPS number by a spreadsheet.
Never forget about that.
(I don't own a Terps btw, not biased towards it but I think it's quite a splendid weapon)
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 Asura.Eiryl
By Asura.Eiryl 2018-09-12 16:12:42
It can't be measured in dps by a spreadsheet because the only thing that matters is dps. remember it doesnt matter how fun or safe it is, if it takes 1 extra second to kill an enemy it's absolute garbage.
サーバ: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2011
By Phoenix.Dabackpack 2018-09-12 17:36:04
It can't be measured in dps by a spreadsheet because the only thing that matters is dps. remember it doesnt matter how fun or safe it is, if it takes 1 extra second to kill an enemy it's absolute garbage.
your ability to keep party members from dying, remove status ailments, stun lethal TP moves when needed increases the party's DPS by a lot tbh
Asura.Eiryl
By Asura.Eiryl 2018-09-12 17:37:20
Phoenix.Dabackpack said: »It can't be measured in dps by a spreadsheet because the only thing that matters is dps. remember it doesnt matter how fun or safe it is, if it takes 1 extra second to kill an enemy it's absolute garbage.
your ability to keep party members from dying, remove status ailments, stun lethal TP moves when needed increases the party's DPS by a lot tbh
Yeah, but your parse is all that matters bruh
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Asura.Sechs
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10086
By Asura.Sechs 2018-09-12 17:42:00
Phoenix.Dabackpack said: »It can't be measured in dps by a spreadsheet because the only thing that matters is dps. remember it doesnt matter how fun or safe it is, if it takes 1 extra second to kill an enemy it's absolute garbage.
your ability to keep party members from dying, remove status ailments, stun lethal TP moves when needed increases the party's DPS by a lot tbh Also less time spent to get steps. Each time you use a step it's a dps loss, technically.
Terps, in theory, should be better than other weapons in this aspect.
Not sure the Spreadsheet takes this into account.
Just like it doesn't take account how you can ride Fandance, compensating the loss of MA from Saber Dance with AM3.
Sort of.
I mean, it just offers much more than pure DPS, so I don't think considering DPS exclusively is a good way to measure what a table DNC can bring on the table.
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By SimonSes 2018-09-12 18:12:40
Phoenix.Dabackpack said: »It can't be measured in dps by a spreadsheet because the only thing that matters is dps. remember it doesnt matter how fun or safe it is, if it takes 1 extra second to kill an enemy it's absolute garbage.
your ability to keep party members from dying, remove status ailments, stun lethal TP moves when needed increases the party's DPS by a lot tbh Also less time spent to get steps. Each time you use a step it's a dps loss, technically.
Terps, in theory, should be better than other weapons in this aspect.
Not sure the Spreadsheet takes this into account.
Just like it doesn't take account how you can ride Fandance, compensating the loss of MA from Saber Dance with AM3.
Sort of.
I mean, it just offers much more than pure DPS, so I don't think considering DPS exclusively is a good way to measure what a table DNC can bring on the table.
I haven't used Saber Dance in ages on DNC. Every time I bring DNC I definitely take advantage of waltzes and not being able to use them with Saber Dance is just a big no for me. I use Fan Dance 99% of the time and I actually only have Aeneas and Twashtar, so it's not because i'm biased toward Terpsi.
EDIT: Can you please post the results with Fan Dance instead of Saber Dance? 60%DA assumed in that sheet test is super biased towards Aeneas/Twashtar.
サーバ: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1052
By Shiva.Arislan 2018-09-12 18:30:58
It can't be measured in dps by a spreadsheet because the only thing that matters is dps. remember it doesnt matter how fun or safe it is, if it takes 1 extra second to kill an enemy it's absolute garbage.
Um, no.
Not sure why people insist on treating this game like it's a *** time trial. Speed =/= success. Winning parse is meaningless if you lose the fight. Zerging doesn't work if people end up flat on their ***.
Use your abilities. Use your -DT sets. Use mechanics to your advantage. Use your Terps. If it means upping the margin of error in a fight, do it. An extra second, or a few minutes, doesn't matter if it helps to ensure that everybody goes home happy the first time.
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Asura.Eiryl
By Asura.Eiryl 2018-09-12 18:32:12
I know text is hard to denote sarcasm, even when it's obvious.
Ramuh.Austar
サーバ: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10481
By Ramuh.Austar 2018-09-12 19:25:12
Also less time spent to get steps. Each time you use a step it's a dps loss, technically.
Terps, in theory, should be better than other weapons in this aspect.
Not sure the Spreadsheet takes this into account. I don't think so, but it wouldn't be difficult to do in my simulation. It would also make setan a more entertaining offhand to terp too that way.
By SimonSes 2018-09-12 19:34:03
Leviathan.Katriina said: »If you think there is something up with that, Cell Q545/WeaponSkills is where the cumulative WSD for Set 2 Mythic.
If there is a mechanic to modify the weapon directly you're more than welcome to try it because I've checked Terp stats in all forms and they are identical [I didnt create Terp from scratch], and Ive added 15% WSD one time and the other time I added 45%. It got 3836.484.
Ok I will now make all you Terpsi users happy af.
You can thanks me in gil donations :D
Q545 is just regular WSD from gear and has nothing to do with Mythic bonus.
Mythic bonus is in E217/Data and it's lacking 45% and If for Augmented Terpsi.
Type this in there to fix it: Code =1+IF(Setup!C27="Pyrrhic Kleos",IF(OR(Gear!Y3="Terpsichore 90",Gear!Y3="Terpsichore 95"),0.15,IF(OR(Gear!Y3="Terpsichore 99",Gear!Y3="Terpsichore 119",Gear!Y3="Terpsichore 119 III"),0.3,IF(Gear!Y3="Terpsichore 119 III Aug",0.45,0))),0)
Now with that Pyrrhic avg damage rises to 20679 and whole DPS for Terpsi/twashtar to 5278.
You're welcome
Asura.Chiaia
VIP
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1656
By Asura.Chiaia 2018-09-12 20:34:19
Leviathan.Katriina said: »If you think there is something up with that, Cell Q545/WeaponSkills is where the cumulative WSD for Set 2 Mythic.
If there is a mechanic to modify the weapon directly you're more than welcome to try it because I've checked Terp stats in all forms and they are identical [I didnt create Terp from scratch], and Ive added 15% WSD one time and the other time I added 45%. It got 3836.484.
Ok I will now make all you Terpsi users happy af.
You can thanks me in gil donations :D
Q545 is just regular WSD from gear and has nothing to do with Mythic bonus.
Mythic bonus is in E217/Data and it's lacking 45% and If for Augmented Terpsi.
Type this in there to fix it: Code =1+IF(Setup!C27="Pyrrhic Kleos",IF(OR(Gear!Y3="Terpsichore 90",Gear!Y3="Terpsichore 95"),0.15,IF(OR(Gear!Y3="Terpsichore 99",Gear!Y3="Terpsichore 119",Gear!Y3="Terpsichore 119 III"),0.3,IF(Gear!Y3="Terpsichore 119 III Aug",0.45,0))),0)
Now with that Pyrrhic avg damage rises to 20679 and whole DPS for Terpsi/twashtar to 5278.
You're welcome needs to be tested that it actually is the same term as mythic bonus but for now it's probably better then adding it to the reg wsd area of the sheets.
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By SimonSes 2018-09-12 20:51:05
Well even if new augment isn't additive with Mythic bonus, the sheet was still broken because it didnt add even 30% to Pyrric Kleos that we have now, because the IF was lacking term "Terpsichore 119 III Aug".
Even if its still 30% only from Mythic bonus and 15% from augment goes to regular WSD, it still puts av gPyrrhic above 18k and dps above 4800. But I'm pretty sure it's just additive to mythic bonus.
Leviathan.Katriina
サーバ: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 860
By Leviathan.Katriina 2018-09-13 01:05:04
Thats wonderful! thanks Simon..
Consequently should add Rudra 10% to Twashtar III Aug? or its only exclusive to Terp?
I will develop another schedule after this confimration, also might need to look at [Setan C/Twashtar] combo since you get 25 s off clim rudra [want to see if it makes a valid option]
And most of you raised valid points in regards to all the variables connected to DNC DPS that aren't met in spreadsheet. Thats why once Austar is done with Sim we can all have a veridical picture of how DNC operates.
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