Cor And Dual Wield.

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フォーラム » FFXI » Jobs » Corsair » Cor and dual wield.
Cor and dual wield.
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 Shiva.Eightball
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By Shiva.Eightball 2015-03-18 17:12:33  
So I have seen some Cors using more DW+ gear than I use and I had always thought DW+ was more for DOT meleeing somthing cor dosent really excell at, when augmenting Taeon pieces for melee I have tried to avoid DW+ and go for STP or TA or DA, am I missing out on somthing by using less DW?
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By Pantafernando 2015-03-18 17:15:33  
Shiva.Eightball said: »
am I missing out on somthing by using less DW?

dps
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 Shiva.Eightball
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By Shiva.Eightball 2015-03-18 17:25:04  
Pantafernando said: »
Shiva.Eightball said: »
am I missing out on somthing by using less DW?

dps

The DPS I would get is minimal compared to the extra tp I would get stacking somthing else like STP or DA to WS more often, at least this is my reasoning. Has anyone tested to see which puts out more dmg?
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By Pantafernando 2015-03-18 17:27:46  
Shiva.Eightball said: »
Has anyone tested to see which puts out more dmg?

Spreadsheet.
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By Kooljack 2015-03-18 17:28:56  
i think that's what their saying, in any situation you're not magic haste capped; i think it's safe to say dual wield is dps superior

two sets needed minimum for frontline dd to be make the most efficient dps with this new gear. i haven't even started on any taeon pieces yet. i'm still slowly working on second set of acro
 Shiva.Eightball
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By Shiva.Eightball 2015-03-18 17:38:07  
K so I've never used spreadsheets for anything, do they take into account switching gear for WS and all that crap? Or are you just saying I will do more DPS strait meleeing?
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By mortontony1 2015-03-18 17:46:11  
-80% delay reduction then stack on as much multi attack as you can, still using gun to WS to max dps.
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By Pantafernando 2015-03-18 17:46:38  
Shiva.Eightball said: »
do they take into account switching gear for WS and all that crap?

Yes.
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 Odin.Jassik
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By Odin.Jassik 2015-03-18 18:06:08  
Anyone who says cor doesn't excel at dual wielding and meleeing is doing it wrong in 99% of situations.
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 Shiva.Eightball
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By Shiva.Eightball 2015-03-18 18:21:12  
It does not excel at doing DOT this way is what I said.
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By Pantafernando 2015-03-18 18:41:22  
Shiva.Eightball said: »
It does not excel at doing DOT this way is what I said.

Cor can not excel in white dmg like other jobs that can sub better jobs (war, sam), but white dmg is important if youre considering melee. But if you really think white dmg as cor is bad, i sugest you to sub sam and stand back just shooting, as for your logic, dw+ will reduce your dmg, so you better of without any. Cor at least has few jas for ranged attacks, while no ja for melee.
 Shiva.Eightball
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By Shiva.Eightball 2015-03-18 18:56:09  
The way I understand cor is, I am not meleeing to do dmg but rather to gain tp so I can spam WSs, +DW doesn't help spam WSs but TA DA and STP do, which is why I am talking about it here, I try to add more of the stats I just mentions over DW to increase Tp flow rather than increase white dmg.
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By mortontony1 2015-03-18 19:03:41  
...why doesn't DW increase WS frequency?
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By Pantafernando 2015-03-18 19:06:17  
Shiva.Eightball said: »
The way I understand cor is, I am not meleeing to do dmg but rather to gain tp so I can spam WSs, +DW doesn't help spam WSs but TA DA and STP do, which is why I am talking about it here, I try to add more of the stats I just mentions over DW to increase Tp flow rather than increase white dmg.

Youre just considering dw reduces your tp gained.

It also reduces your attack delay.

Youre overestimating the tp loss and understimating the attack delay reduction. Spreadsheet will always point a positive relationship between total dmg and attack speed.
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 Odin.Jassik
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By Odin.Jassik 2015-03-18 19:08:17  
Shiva.Eightball said: »
The way I understand cor is, I am not meleeing to do dmg but rather to gain tp so I can spam WSs, +DW doesn't help spam WSs but TA DA and STP do, which is why I am talking about it here, I try to add more of the stats I just mentions over DW to increase Tp flow rather than increase white dmg.

The basic breakdown is that haste > dual wield > multi-attack > STP assuming you aren't going over haste cap and accuracy is capped. At least for COR, yes, you are meleeing to gain TP for WS, the same as every other melee job, some are biased more to weaponskill damage, some are biased more to white damage, but damage is damage. Melee COR should be somewhere in the 60/40 split for melee to weaponskill damage as long as the mob isn't resistant.

I didn't mean to be rude about it, but DoT (damage over time) is used more as a measure of things like poison, DPS (damage per second) is used as a measure of direct damage. In this case, considering what COR adds to a party with steps and capping Dia with light shot, they add nearly as much DPS as so-called melee jobs, even beating some pretty handily.
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By Pantafernando 2015-03-18 19:15:27  
Btw, thats one of the uses of spreadsheet, as some people were discussing that in thfs guide but i prefered not to join that. If someone want to disbelieve spreadsheet or gear exactly acording to spreadsheet, its their own business, wrong are the people who criticize based in subjectives opinions.

But one thing for sure, if you want to conclude your hipothesys with in field testing, good luck, as you gonna need some stupid amount of practical testing to reach a safe conclusion, that no surprise, it should be the same as the spreadsheet point, for the simple fact that the one who did that spreadsheet knows (and put in use that knowledge) more about this game than me or you or 99,9% of people playing.
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 Shiva.Eightball
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By Shiva.Eightball 2015-03-18 19:41:06  
Well then ima need to try out spreadsheets.

Also I have seen ppl refer to them but never seen a link or anything on where to get, can you post link or somthing for the one you used for checking cor?
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By mortontony1 2015-03-18 19:48:11  
here
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By Pantafernando 2015-03-18 19:53:47  
https://docs.google.com/folderview?usp=drive_web&id=0B0A0wGYYRRdaZjdlNTdkNTEtMDMyYy00OTVmLWI4N2ItNDMwMDI1N2VkYWZk

You will just need to manually update the gear in the correct tab as the last update is from around WoE time. Its a bit of work, inputing a new line, typing all data, etc, but its not complicated.

First tab you can set you battle conditions like foe (fodder, tojil, serac rabbits etc), food, buffs, etc, probably melee, ranged mode and ws preferences.

Next tabs you can build your tp sets, ws sets, shooting sets, pre shot sets, etc. Below those set, there will be a field for estimated melee average, ws average and total average.

Basically just play with first tab, gear tabs and update the spreadsheet data adding new items. The others tabs will have Motenten calculations algorithm, i sugest you to not to mess with that, but its always nice to check that to see what hipothesis he used, etc.
 Phoenix.Capuchin
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2015-03-18 19:55:31  
mortontony1 said: »
-80% delay reduction then stack on as much multi attack as you can, still using gun to WS to max dps.

Exactly that.

Also, here's specifically what COR needs to cap delay reduction (all assuming capped equipment haste) in certain scenarios:

1) With capped magical haste and no JA haste (i.e. Haste Samba): DW+36%

2) Capped magical haste and /DNC Haste Samba: DW+24% (actually brings you to -79.96%, so close as to effectively say "capped")

3) Haste spell only, no marches (as in, you're not in the BRD party): DW+67% - i.e. all the damn DW gear you can use.

Above DW numbers are for trait PLUS gear.
* /DNC gives DW+15% (DWII trait)
* /NIN gives DW+25% (DWIII trait)

Going slightly over the needed amount of DW is fine. It reduces your TP/hit slightly but it's really insignificant if you needed DW+3% more to hit cap and you tossed on a DW+5 piece. The important thing is not to keep using DW gear once you're at cap when you could be using other good stuff instead (in particular multi-attack, such as TA+2% Taeon pieces)
 Sylph.Oraen
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By Sylph.Oraen 2015-03-18 20:03:17  
Also important to note that DW past the cap of delay reduction continues to reduce your TP gain without lowering delay, so you want to do all you can to minimize excess DW.

Capuchin kinda beat me to it.
 Shiva.Eightball
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By Shiva.Eightball 2015-03-18 20:41:31  
Ok well I'm not great at using the spreadsheet as its my first time but comparing my current set vs my current set with DW over TA I get

Current set with TA. 535.628 DPS
Current set with DW. 411.442 DPS
 Ragnarok.Afania
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By Ragnarok.Afania 2015-03-18 23:55:30  
Odin.Jassik said: »
Shiva.Eightball said: »
The way I understand cor is, I am not meleeing to do dmg but rather to gain tp so I can spam WSs, +DW doesn't help spam WSs but TA DA and STP do, which is why I am talking about it here, I try to add more of the stats I just mentions over DW to increase Tp flow rather than increase white dmg.

The basic breakdown is that haste > dual wield > multi-attack > STP assuming you aren't going over haste cap and accuracy is capped. At least for COR, yes, you are meleeing to gain TP for WS, the same as every other melee job, some are biased more to weaponskill damage, some are biased more to white damage, but damage is damage. Melee COR should be somewhere in the 60/40 split for melee to weaponskill damage as long as the mob isn't resistant.

I didn't mean to be rude about it, but DoT (damage over time) is used more as a measure of things like poison, DPS (damage per second) is used as a measure of direct damage. In this case, considering what COR adds to a party with steps and capping Dia with light shot, they add nearly as much DPS as so-called melee jobs, even beating some pretty handily.


The info of 60:40 WS white dmg ratio is incorrect according to some very old yorcia parse I had. It was 75:25. Compare many other melee jobs, cor does gain less dmg increase from DW and white dmg.

75:25 was without indi malaise nor additional mab storm buffs btw, WS would worth a lot more with those buffs.

Also I think you guys misunderstood op's question. He isn't saying DW and white dmg isn't important. He is asking if gearing for DW gains more dmg increase than gearing for store tp and TA, because cor is such a WS heavy job.
 Odin.Jassik
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By Odin.Jassik 2015-03-19 00:31:00  
Ragnarok.Afania said: »
Odin.Jassik said: »
Shiva.Eightball said: »
The way I understand cor is, I am not meleeing to do dmg but rather to gain tp so I can spam WSs, +DW doesn't help spam WSs but TA DA and STP do, which is why I am talking about it here, I try to add more of the stats I just mentions over DW to increase Tp flow rather than increase white dmg.

The basic breakdown is that haste > dual wield > multi-attack > STP assuming you aren't going over haste cap and accuracy is capped. At least for COR, yes, you are meleeing to gain TP for WS, the same as every other melee job, some are biased more to weaponskill damage, some are biased more to white damage, but damage is damage. Melee COR should be somewhere in the 60/40 split for melee to weaponskill damage as long as the mob isn't resistant.

I didn't mean to be rude about it, but DoT (damage over time) is used more as a measure of things like poison, DPS (damage per second) is used as a measure of direct damage. In this case, considering what COR adds to a party with steps and capping Dia with light shot, they add nearly as much DPS as so-called melee jobs, even beating some pretty handily.


The info of 60:40 WS white dmg ratio is incorrect according to some very old yorcia parse I had. It was 75:25. Compare many other melee jobs, cor does gain less dmg increase from DW and white dmg.

75:25 was without indi malaise nor additional mab storm buffs btw, WS would worth a lot more with those buffs.

Also I think you guys misunderstood op's question. He isn't saying DW and white dmg isn't important. He is asking if gearing for DW gains more dmg increase than gearing for store tp and TA, because cor is such a WS heavy job.

Unless QD is getting counted as melee damage, I don't see how our results could be that different. To be fair, I haven't parsed anything on COR recently and I was using deathlocke at the time.
 Cerberus.Reiden
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By Cerberus.Reiden 2015-03-19 00:40:38  
Well first thing is first, what are you soloing that you use cor/dnc or /nin? Otherwise if you're doing endgame content, then you probably have march x2 and haste, which you wouldn't need much DW.
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By Pantafernando 2015-03-19 03:09:45  
Ragnarok.Afania said: »
Odin.Jassik said: »
Shiva.Eightball said: »
The way I understand cor is, I am not meleeing to do dmg but rather to gain tp so I can spam WSs, +DW doesn't help spam WSs but TA DA and STP do, which is why I am talking about it here, I try to add more of the stats I just mentions over DW to increase Tp flow rather than increase white dmg.

The basic breakdown is that haste > dual wield > multi-attack > STP assuming you aren't going over haste cap and accuracy is capped. At least for COR, yes, you are meleeing to gain TP for WS, the same as every other melee job, some are biased more to weaponskill damage, some are biased more to white damage, but damage is damage. Melee COR should be somewhere in the 60/40 split for melee to weaponskill damage as long as the mob isn't resistant.

I didn't mean to be rude about it, but DoT (damage over time) is used more as a measure of things like poison, DPS (damage per second) is used as a measure of direct damage. In this case, considering what COR adds to a party with steps and capping Dia with light shot, they add nearly as much DPS as so-called melee jobs, even beating some pretty handily.


The info of 60:40 WS white dmg ratio is incorrect according to some very old yorcia parse I had. It was 75:25. Compare many other melee jobs, cor does gain less dmg increase from DW and white dmg.

75:25 was without indi malaise nor additional mab storm buffs btw, WS would worth a lot more with those buffs.

Also I think you guys misunderstood op's question. He isn't saying DW and white dmg isn't important. He is asking if gearing for DW gains more dmg increase than gearing for store tp and TA, because cor is such a WS heavy job.

Given your post (yorcia/malaise) it sounds youre using wildfire or leaden, what makes this kind of bad example, because wopket is resistant to piercing dmg and weak to fire dmg (so youre tping with a resisted weapon and ws with bonus).

So, you cant really use that example to say 75:25.
 Shiva.Eightball
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By Shiva.Eightball 2015-03-19 08:55:47  
Afina thank you! Someone gets it lol.

The numbers I posted if I did it correct are just with haste 2 and 9% DW(+sub dnc) and somthing like 20%DA 13%TA 4%QA because I didn't see the buffs section before. When I added brd and cor buffs the split was more like 1200 to 850
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2015-03-19 09:13:03  
Remember, in the fairly common scenario where you're /DNC and have the buffs to cap magical haste (i.e. you're getting marches), you only need ~DW+9% to cap delay reduction. You can get that on a single piece of gear (DW+5% aug on Taeon feet, which also have the native DW+4%).

Is another DW+5% to hit delay cap more valuable than the alternative of TA+2%? Yes.

Does any more DW than that help you at all at the expense of ANY other beneficial stat? No.
 Shiva.Eightball
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By Shiva.Eightball 2015-03-19 11:05:42  
Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
Remember, in the fairly common scenario where you're /DNC and have the buffs to cap magical haste (i.e. you're getting marches), you only need ~DW+9% to cap delay reduction. You can get that on a single piece of gear (DW+5% aug on Taeon feet, which also have the native DW+4%).

Is another DW+5% to hit delay cap more valuable than the alternative of TA+2%? Yes.

Does any more DW than that help you at all at the expense of ANY other beneficial stat? No.


Earlier you said cor/dnc needs 24% DW to cap with full haste buffs. So what changed here?
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By Sylph.Oraen 2015-03-19 11:38:29  
Shiva.Eightball said: »
Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
Remember, in the fairly common scenario where you're /DNC and have the buffs to cap magical haste (i.e. you're getting marches), you only need ~DW+9% to cap delay reduction. You can get that on a single piece of gear (DW+5% aug on Taeon feet, which also have the native DW+4%).

Is another DW+5% to hit delay cap more valuable than the alternative of TA+2%? Yes.

Does any more DW than that help you at all at the expense of ANY other beneficial stat? No.


Earlier you said cor/dnc needs 24% DW to cap with full haste buffs. So what changed here?

The 24% included base trait as well as bonuses from gear.

15% base as /DNC, 9% from gear. I'd personally use Suppanomimi and 2TA Taeon feet.

This assumes that you're keeping Haste Samba up at all times, however.
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