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 Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2016-06-21 14:47:04  
Cerberus.Pleebo said: »
Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Pew did a study back in 2007 or 2008 where they polled every Muslim country in the world. There are tens if not hundreds of millions of Muslims who think throwing gays off of rooftops (or otherwise killing them for being gay) is appropriate. Do you think the Islamic world has moderated since then or gotten more radical.

He study has been shared numerous times in p&r
Then you shouldn't have much of a problem linking it again.

Remind me later will ya? I just can't be bothered doing it on my phone.
 Sylph.Dravidian
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By Sylph.Dravidian 2016-06-21 14:48:04  
Cerberus.Pleebo said: »
Shiva.Eboneezer said: »
Valefor.Sehachan said: »
Granting asylum to people escaping warzones is very simply the humane things to do.
If you were luving in a wartorn zone you'd be wishing to be accepted into peaceful countries too.

I absolutely agree. I just happen to favor the lives of US citizens over taking a risk of undocumented / poorly vetted refugees from areas of the world that are ranked at the top of terrorist activity. Especially terrorist activity that has specifically labeled us as targets. I wish there were other avenues. From what I've read, there are plenty of areas in their own country that they could be relocated to. With the help of the UN, could we not find a way to support/secure their stay there? Even if it were just long enough to where we could establish some kind of reliable information about who they are and info about their past? Right now, all we have to go on is based on the documents that they hand us. I'm not really excited about the validity of our intel on them at all. I'm not completely against accepting refugees, however I am completely against blindly accepting refugees from areas where many people have pledged to kill Americans. For me, Trump gets the nod in this regard vs Hillary wanting to blindly allow 65,000 into the US.
You've casually dismissed the vetting process solely because it adheres to the pants-wetting fear that Trump is selling. It takes years to complete and is carried out by multiple agencies. No one is getting in here blindly. They're subjected to the highest level of scrutiny of anyone trying to get into the country.

Yeah I agree. We have no illegal immigrants in the US.
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By Ramyrez 2016-06-21 14:50:18  
Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Have we talked about the trump assassination was perpetrated by an ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT?

The guy was British, and it's funny because most of the British people I know -- while not big on Trump, because they're super liberal -- are actually pretty anti-Hillary and "meh" Trump. To them he's just another piece of ***American politician, where she's a war-mongering murderer.
 Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2016-06-21 14:52:13  
Sylph.Dravidian said: »
Cerberus.Pleebo said: »
Shiva.Eboneezer said: »
Valefor.Sehachan said: »
Granting asylum to people escaping warzones is very simply the humane things to do.
If you were luving in a wartorn zone you'd be wishing to be accepted into peaceful countries too.

I absolutely agree. I just happen to favor the lives of US citizens over taking a risk of undocumented / poorly vetted refugees from areas of the world that are ranked at the top of terrorist activity. Especially terrorist activity that has specifically labeled us as targets. I wish there were other avenues. From what I've read, there are plenty of areas in their own country that they could be relocated to. With the help of the UN, could we not find a way to support/secure their stay there? Even if it were just long enough to where we could establish some kind of reliable information about who they are and info about their past? Right now, all we have to go on is based on the documents that they hand us. I'm not really excited about the validity of our intel on them at all. I'm not completely against accepting refugees, however I am completely against blindly accepting refugees from areas where many people have pledged to kill Americans. For me, Trump gets the nod in this regard vs Hillary wanting to blindly allow 65,000 into the US.
You've casually dismissed the vetting process solely because it adheres to the pants-wetting fear that Trump is selling. It takes years to complete and is carried out by multiple agencies. No one is getting in here blindly. They're subjected to the highest level of scrutiny of anyone trying to get into the country.

Yeah I agree. We have no illegal immigrants in the US.

Pleebo meanwhile subscribes to the same "pants wetting" rhetoric of "guns are bad" propagated by the left ad nauseum.
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By fonewear 2016-06-21 14:52:50  
Guns are bad drugs are bad so don't do guns !
 Sylph.Dravidian
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By Sylph.Dravidian 2016-06-21 14:53:42  
Ramyrez said: »
I wonder how many people afraid of extremely unlikely terrorist attacks smoke, drink, eat fatty/terrible foods, own guns, drive, or see even one other person every day.

Because I'm pretty sure every one of those things is considerably more likely to kill you, statistically speaking.

Must live in perpetual fear of everything. That's rough.

Interesting enough, I succesfully drove home while eating some fatt food with a concealed weapong to immedately smoke and drink on my porch and
Ramyrez said: »
I wonder how many people afraid of extremely unlikely terrorist attacks smoke, drink, eat fatty/terrible foods, own guns, drive, or see even one other person every day.

Because I'm pretty sure every one of those things is considerably more likely to kill you, statistically speaking.

Must live in perpetual fear of everything. That's rough.

Oh this argument. Yeah, then we should just open more doors to harm people. While we are at it we should let the rapists and murders go. Chances of them actually doing anything to YOU is statistically lower than everything you listed.
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 Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2016-06-21 14:54:04  
Ramyrez said: »
Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Have we talked about the trump assassination was perpetrated by an ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT?

The guy was British, and it's funny because most of the British people I know -- while not big on Trump, because they're super liberal -- are actually pretty anti-Hillary and "meh" Trump. To them he's just another piece of ***American politician, where she's a war-mongering murderer.

Do you think if a tea partier tried to assassinate Clinton, it would be more than 30 minutes before we knew about it?
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 Sylph.Dravidian
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By Sylph.Dravidian 2016-06-21 14:56:46  
My post got messed up. Honestly no idea what happened lol.
 Siren.Mosin
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By Siren.Mosin 2016-06-21 15:00:20  
Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Pleebo meanwhile subscribes to the same "pants wetting" rhetoric of "guns are bad" propagated by the left ad nauseum.

I've never been witness to this claim in 3-4 years hanging around this stupid site.
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 Sylph.Jeanpaul
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By Sylph.Jeanpaul 2016-06-21 15:01:51  
Sylph.Dravidian said: »
My post got messed up. Honestly no idea what happened lol.
Ya quoted twice, chief, a mod might come by and fix it for ya.

The point Ramy was making is that the threat of terrorism is highly emotional despite the significantly lower frequency when compared to things we can anticipate and more easily mitigate like poor health or natural hazards.
 Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2016-06-21 15:03:02  
Siren.Mosin said: »
Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Pleebo meanwhile subscribes to the same "pants wetting" rhetoric of "guns are bad" propagated by the left ad nauseum.

I've never been witness to this claim in 3-4 years hanging around this stupid site.

Which claim specifically? Pleebo certainly loves him some more gun control.
 Ragnarok.Raenil
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By Ragnarok.Raenil 2016-06-21 15:04:01  
Sylph.Dravidian said: »
Ragnarok.Raenil said: »
Your family is significantly more likely to be blown away by some random natural born white Christian than it is by a Muslim immigrant.

Or literally any other racial/religious demographic.

Source for this? Or do you just assume every murderer that isn't Muslim is a devout practicing Christian?
-63% of the United States population is White.
-76% or so of the United States population is Christian.
-At least 43% of all violent crimes are committed by White Americans. 8% of crimes have no race attributed.
-83% of White Americans murdered were murdered by another White American.

-Islamic practitioners make up 0.9% of the population.
-Muslims fall into the 12% of violent crimes committed by every demographic that isn't White/Black/Latino.

While it's an assumption, like yours, mine is backed by hard numbers and statistics from the FBI.

I will throw you a bone though. If you're a Black American, chances are you'll be killed by a Black Christian before a White Christian. Both of which are still massively more likely to occur than being killed my a Muslim.

Besides, who said anything about devout Christians? A devout Christian wouldn't murder someone in the first place.

If you think ISIS and similar groups are devout Islamic practitioners, you're severely misguided. That's akin saying some guy who blew up Notre-Dame Cathedral is a devout Catholic.
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 Cerberus.Pleebo
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By Cerberus.Pleebo 2016-06-21 15:04:36  
Sylph.Dravidian said: »
Yeah I agree. We have no illegal immigrants in the US.
Obviously I'm referring to refugees since that was the central discussion.
Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Pleebo meanwhile subscribes to the same "pants wetting" rhetoric of "guns are bad" propagated by the left ad nauseum.
I don't have a strong opinion on the gun debate because I think it's a more futile argument than most others we have here. And I haven't said anything remotely like what you're saying.
 Sylph.Dravidian
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By Sylph.Dravidian 2016-06-21 15:09:26  
Sylph.Jeanpaul said: »
Sylph.Dravidian said: »
My post got messed up. Honestly no idea what happened lol.
Ya quoted twice, chief, a mod might come by and fix it for ya.

The point Ramy was making is that the threat of terrorism is highly emotional despite the significantly lower frequency when compared to things we can anticipate and more easily mitigate like poor health or natural hazards.

I can see that point.

Btw, towards some of my argument. I believe in helping people where you can, including refugees. I don't believe any group of people should be cut off from being able to enter the US, though I wish they were better at weeding at the bad ones. I like to play devils advocate sometimes. I really enjoy these conversations.
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 Sylph.Dravidian
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By Sylph.Dravidian 2016-06-21 15:13:03  
Ragnarok.Raenil said: »
Sylph.Dravidian said: »
Ragnarok.Raenil said: »
Your family is significantly more likely to be blown away by some random natural born white Christian than it is by a Muslim immigrant.

Or literally any other racial/religious demographic.

Source for this? Or do you just assume every murderer that isn't Muslim is a devout practicing Christian?
-63% of the United States population is White.
-76% or so of the United States population is Christian.
-At least 43% of all violent crimes are committed by White Americans. 8% of crimes have no race attributed.
-83% of White Americans murdered were murdered by another White American.

-Islamic practitioners make up 0.9% of the population.
-Muslims fall into the 12% of violent crimes committed by every demographic that isn't White/Black/Latino.

While it's an assumption, like yours, mine is backed by hard numbers and statistics from the FBI.

I will throw you a bone though. If you're a Black American, chances are you'll be killed by a Black Christian before a White Christian. Both of which are still massively more likely to occur than being killed my a Muslim.

Besides, who said anything about devout Christians? A devout Christian wouldn't murder someone in the first place.

If you think ISIS and similar groups are devout Islamic practitioners, you're severely misguided. That's akin saying some guy who blew up Notre-Dame Cathedral is a devout Catholic.

So the answer is yes. You do assume any murder that isn't a Muslim is a devout practicing Christian.
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By Anna Ruthven 2016-06-21 15:15:11  
Wanna know how to get rid of all illegal immigrants? Because I know how and it's very simple.

Just open up the borders and let them come and go as they please, that way it's not illegal.
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By fonewear 2016-06-21 15:15:41  
Ragnarok.Raenil said: »
Sylph.Dravidian said: »
Ragnarok.Raenil said: »
Your family is significantly more likely to be blown away by some random natural born white Christian than it is by a Muslim immigrant.

Or literally any other racial/religious demographic.

Source for this? Or do you just assume every murderer that isn't Muslim is a devout practicing Christian?
-63% of the United States population is White.
-76% or so of the United States population is Christian.
-At least 43% of all violent crimes are committed by White Americans. 8% of crimes have no race attributed.
-83% of White Americans murdered were murdered by another White American.

-Islamic practitioners make up 0.9% of the population.
-Muslims fall into the 12% of violent crimes committed by every demographic that isn't White/Black/Latino.

While it's an assumption, like yours, mine is backed by hard numbers and statistics from the FBI.

I will throw you a bone though. If you're a Black American, chances are you'll be killed by a Black Christian before a White Christian. Both of which are still massively more likely to occur than being killed my a Muslim.

Besides, who said anything about devout Christians? A devout Christian wouldn't murder someone in the first place.

If you think ISIS and similar groups are devout Islamic practitioners, you're severely misguided. That's akin saying some guy who blew up Notre-Dame Cathedral is a devout Catholic.

As a devout Muslim I can attest to this 8% of the time.
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By fonewear 2016-06-21 15:16:24  
Anna Ruthven said: »
Wanna know how to get rid of all illegal immigrants? Because I know how and it's very simple.

Just open up the borders and let them come and go as they please, that way it's not illegal.

Do you work for the Obama administration cause it sounds like you do !
 Ragnarok.Raenil
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By Ragnarok.Raenil 2016-06-21 15:16:39  
Any? Nope. Most likely? Staticstics say it sure the *** is.
 Siren.Mosin
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By Siren.Mosin 2016-06-21 15:28:49  
Math is confusing. It's super easy to not like people that don't look like me.
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 Shiva.Eboneezer
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By Shiva.Eboneezer 2016-06-21 15:55:03  
Bahamut.Kara said: »
Tom Ridge resigned from the Department of Homeland Security in 2004. He is the former head of DHS but a lot has changed in 12 years. His knowledge is out of date.

Syria is different from Iraq in that we aren't running prisons where we are taking biometric data to test against.

So, no, we don't have biometric data from prisons. Does this mean that it was 100% safe when we admitted Iraq refugees? No.

So it wasn't 100% safe when we had way more data on Iraq refugees. Got ya, that's somehow supposed to make me feel better about trying to push 65000 refugees that we have much less information from? Also, I don't think any of these people are trying to say that they want 100% accuracy.

Bahamut.Kara said: »
However, this doesn't mean we have no information, it just means we don't have the information we had access too when we occupied a country for a decade. Just like when we accept refugees from other countries that are war-torn that we haven't occupied for a decade.

Correct, highly valuable information....like the name of who they say they are... You can deny it all you want to, and bring in someone from 2004, but no matter what you say, I'm going to take the advice given from the people that are tasked with the Syrian refugees today.
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By Blazed1979 2016-06-21 16:12:37  
I used to be strongly against Guns, I'm actually finding out right now that I'm neutral. I think all the recent footage of cops abusing their authority and office has swung me around to be pro-guns.
I mean if the cops act this bad when Americans still have the right to arms, what are they going to be like when the american people don't have guns?

It might be the news blowing things out of proportion, but every day it seems like there is some video of some cop acting like an SS trooper.
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 Bahamut.Ravael
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2016-06-21 16:16:50  
Ragnarok.Raenil said: »
Any? Nope. Most likely? Staticstics say it sure the *** is.

Your argument is practically meaningless, though. Okay, yeah, we're all super shocked that the demographical majorities commit a majority of the crimes. You've hammered the most obvious nail into the ground. Now give us something that actually creates meaningful comparison between the demographics.

You say that 63% of the country is white but only 43% of the violent crimes are committed by white Americans? That tells me that there are other demographics that have a higher violent crime rate per person. What are those demographics? How do they compare? What are the root causes?

The average person is far more likely to die from heart disease than from being mauled to death by a lion. That doesn't mean that you can let lions roam freely in the middle of a crowded city. Yeah this is an extreme example, but it makes the point that you can't just look at general, wide statistics and ignore functions of rate and pretend that you have a good argument.
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 Ragnarok.Raenil
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By Ragnarok.Raenil 2016-06-21 16:23:23  
I absolutely did. Violent crimes by Muslims are such an incredibly small number they don't get an individual data set.

Claiming we'll be letting even more terrorist flow in than we currently are (LOL) by not having a more stringent screening process then we currently do has no statistical validation. And to me, it looks like waste of resources that could be better spent dealing with internal issues, and causing needless suffering for people trying to escape a war torn country they want to part of.
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 Ragnarok.Raenil
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By Ragnarok.Raenil 2016-06-21 16:23:53  
want no part of*

Again, GDI Rooks.
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By fonewear 2016-06-21 16:25:15  
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Ragnarok.Raenil said: »
Any? Nope. Most likely? Staticstics say it sure the *** is.

Your argument is practically meaningless, though. Okay, yeah, we're all super shocked that the demographical majorities commit a majority of the crimes. You've hammered the most obvious nail into the ground. Now give us something that actually creates meaningful comparison between the demographics.

You say that 63% of the country is white but only 43% of the violent crimes are committed by white Americans? That tells me that there are other demographics that have a higher violent crime rate per person. What are those demographics? How do they compare? What are the root causes?

The average person is far more likely to die from heart disease than from being mauled to death by a lion. That doesn't mean that you can let lions roam freely in the middle of a crowded city. Yeah this is an extreme example, but it makes the point that you can't just look at general, wide statistics and ignore functions of rate and pretend that you have a good argument.

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 Asura.Sabishii
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By Asura.Sabishii 2016-06-21 16:28:19  
Blazed1979 said: »
I used to be strongly against Guns, I'm actually finding out right now that I'm neutral. I think all the recent footage of cops abusing their authority and office has swung me around to be pro-guns.
I mean if the cops act this bad when Americans still have the right to arms, what are they going to be like when the american people don't have guns?

It might be the news blowing things out of proportion, but every day it seems like there is some video of some cop acting like an SS trooper.


I don't get how having a less gun laws would solve the issue of police acting out of bounds. Would you threaten the officers with your own guns? You're gonna get shot/arrested. Would you shoot the officer when he draws his gun on you after you've drawn your weapon on him? Congratulations, you're a cop killer. Enjoy either dying via bullets to your vulnerable areas, or getting arrested and spending the rest of your productive life in jail.

No way you can get off of pointing a gun a cop. Doesn't matter if the cop is busting your chops or if he has a good reason to. It just gives him the (rightful) reason to arrest you. Because you're threatening an officer of the law with a gun. You just made him in the right by pointing a gun at him.
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By Blazed1979 2016-06-21 16:41:51  
Asura.Sabishii said: »
Blazed1979 said: »
I used to be strongly against Guns, I'm actually finding out right now that I'm neutral. I think all the recent footage of cops abusing their authority and office has swung me around to be pro-guns.
I mean if the cops act this bad when Americans still have the right to arms, what are they going to be like when the american people don't have guns?

It might be the news blowing things out of proportion, but every day it seems like there is some video of some cop acting like an SS trooper.


I don't get how having a less gun laws would solve the issue of police acting out of bounds. Would you threaten the officers with your own guns? You're gonna get shot/arrested. Would you shoot the officer when he draws his gun on you after you've drawn your weapon on him? Congratulations, you're a cop killer. Enjoy either dying via bullets to your vulnerable areas, or getting arrested and spending the rest of your productive life in jail.

No way you can get off of pointing a gun a cop. Doesn't matter if the cop is busting your chops or if he has a good reason to. It just gives him the (rightful) reason to arrest you. Because you're threatening an officer of the law with a gun. You just made him in the right by pointing a gun at him.

Using my imagination - I can't see a couple of cops strolling up to a person's house without a warrant and entering his house if he has a firearm and makes it known to them.

Cops drive up to an estate or some form of private property knowing that the owners/residents/employees/security have firearms =/= cops profiling an african american driver.

My point was that IF COPS are THIS brutal, knowing that the citizenry of the US have the rights to arms, what would they be like without any possibility of reprisal.

Sorry but if I lived in the US I would have a ***ton of guns in my house, with clear as day warning signs that tresspassers would be shot. I'd have another sign that said "Cops stay the *** out unless you have a warrant. I will shoot on sight ALL illegal tresspassers be they cops or gangsters".

As far as I know that would be my right as a citizen. It is most certainly my right in an arab muslim country. The state isn't allowed into my private residence or within my private property (that includes my person and my vehicle) without a warrant signed by a judge and the general attorney.

If a cop enters your house here without a warrant, his death is on him.
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 Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2016-06-21 16:57:15  
Anna Ruthven said: »
Wanna know how to get rid of all illegal immigrants? Because I know how and it's very simple.

Just open up the borders and let them come and go as they please, that way it's not illegal.


and you think i'm trolling?
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 Ragnarok.Hevans
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By Ragnarok.Hevans 2016-06-21 17:06:20  
people just really really hope that's what you're doing. the alternative...
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