The Great Debate: Week 1

Veering off-course...

I believe schooling should support learning in both a social and intellectual aspect. More importantly, they should be teaching you how to learn and offering you basics. Altana knows that my High School and College were completely different. I've never done any research, any computer-related things(didn't have my first computer until a couple of years ago), and most importantly, no long papers.

On-course...

If what I'm understanding is correct: When people have uniforms, they want to be individuals, but when given the freedom to choose, they want to be like everyone else. Is this ironic to anyone else?

Also, and I don't know the ages of the posters, but what about the "children?" I mean, a lot of kids probably wouldn't understand the money thing, or get anything that's been mentioned. I mean, how would making them do one thing affect their growth into adulthood?

Lots of questions, and not much debate.. Ah well.

Honestly socializing is a huge part of learning in high school. However, it ends up being mostly the wrong kind of socializing in a lot cases. Picking on the weak, making fun of different people, etc.

IMO, it's really not until college where the real learning of socializing begins.

I didn't go to a high school in a city, I went to a high school in the sticks of Northern NJ, so we had 2 black kids, one Asian, the rest white. So speaking from that point of view, it's when I went to college where I finally was around many different races, religions, creeds, etc. That where I learned what real socializing with people different is about.

However, I'm sure there's a point to made for high schools in cities where you are exposed to different people earlier on.

/em another 2 cents from me

But as for the OP, uniforms, as long as I don't have to wear the tie or the sweater, I wouldn't have mind it. But do girls really have to wear skirts all the time? I'm a uniform school noob, so do they have a choice to wear pants/slacks, etc.?

Been trying to keep up with this thread. It's very interesting to hear other people's views.

Here is something that I have seen unanswered:



Yes, unless maybe, you're in some overly posh and strict school, however, the schools that I attended required uniforms, allowed us the option. This is not the 50's. In England, the school allowed us [girls] to wear either black trousers or a black or gray KNEE-HIGH skirt, accompanied with black nylons, and black dress shoes. It was very much the same thing, in one of the high schools I attended here in my home country: navy blue trousers, which had the school's logo on it, or the school's red and navy blue kilt. In 2004, the rules required all girls who wore the kilt were to wear them with tights, because too many people were bending over and showing their thongs. Not very lady-like if you ask me. ;(

Generally, though, the uniforms are much more casual here in NA. My last year of high school, the girl's trousers were remade so they were better fitting on a girl and so they were more lax, felt like PJ bottoms, but not as baggy!

Of course all schools are different, but I think a lot of places have ruled out skirts only for girls unless you're in a super-duper private school or some sort.

Not it my school they didn't have the option :p, I didn't mind :D

Well your school is weird!

Pants ftw!

I didn't like freezing my butt off during winter. <_<

But I loved it. :P

I would just have to say no. It's not right to force people to wear something. Pretty soon we'll be told more stuff to do, then more and more. It's already happening in America in my opinion.

Clothing hasn't hurt anyone. I was very poor throughout my education and never had anything remotely "cool". You'll get over it.

Just quickly, from my experience there have always been choices for the girls on what they wanted to wear - skirts, shorts, pants, slacks etc. My schools had uniforms that still gave people a lot of choice.

Uniforms are only restrictive if the rules that govern the monitoring of the uniforms are. And if that's the case it wouldn't matter if the school had uniforms or not as the governing school body would be strict regardless.

To me it's about allowing the kid to be a kid and giving them the opportunity to learn and grow into an adult without being too restrictive. To me uniforms don't restrict choice but give the child something else to think about other than, "What am I going to wear today?" and more about the learning and socializing aspect of school.

What's interesting to see is that the majority of people that did wore uniforms think they are a good idea while people who didn't tend to sway either way.

I think it's important to remember that schools are supposed to be a place of learning, even if we didn't want to while we were there, and certain types of clothing can have a detrimental impact on that learning - re: "skanks", curse words. A uniform should be put in place to create an even level of learning for all students and not to restrict or create conformity. Using it as a tool is wrong and means you fail at building respect through other means.

The thing is though, we will always have people in positions of power that will try to abuse that power, which in turn creates negative beliefs of certain ideas - like uniforms, but we shouldn't attach the stigma to uniforms but instead focus on the real issue which is the lack of an adult showing respect to a child or young adult. The old saying of respect your elders should always be true but one has to earn respect.

~~~~~~

Just wanted to say again, I'm really impressed by the responses that people have posted. In terms of the off-topic stuff, some of it relates but the really in-depth things I think should probably be discussed another time unless you want to carry it on in game or PM, that's the whole idea of these threads, to promote discussion and enjoyment of discussion. Thank you for everyone that has contributed, feel free to continue to post and I will start to take some PM's for the next topic while this raps up.

That's cool then.

Well I was never opposed to uniforms, or for them. Our school didn't have that policy. But now knowing the majority of the facts about this issue, I wouldn't mind it if it did happen to me, or if I had kids who were subjected to it. But in either circumstance, no ties please ;P, and as for the sweaters, if my kids wanted to wear them go for it, but sweaters aren't for me, I'll just wear the dress shirts xD


That reminds me of some shoes I bought one time in middle school, 6th grade I believe. They were like $20 shoes, but really fancy looking almost looked like the air nikes that were popular at the time. Only thing though the no name brand name was all over the shoes. When I first wore them people would sarcastically comment on them, "WOW! Those are some awesome shoes!" "Where can I get a pair of them?" My response, "Pathmark for only $5". (it's a grocery store for people who don't know what Pathmark is). After about a week, maybe even less, that was the end of that, and no one cared anymore.



Agreed for the most part this was a very civilized discussion and definitely should have more of them!

The next challenge is to have another civilized discussion, but about a more controversial topic. If we can continue this level of tolerance of different opinions, there may be hope for the internet yet! ;D

If not, there's always porn. LOL!

Dress code, yes
Uniforms, no

I had to learn how to tie a tie at the age of 11, Chaosx and it's not that bad. xD

Only thing that was annoying was having to do the very top button on my blouse. ><

I still have trouble with ties. I'm a failure.

Me too =)



^This.

As for my take on school uniforms? I personally did not go to a school that had such an enforcement, so I have no experience in having to wear any kind of uniform. However, I would of been open to the idea. I'm an oddball, I actually enjoyed the learning aspect in school and it was my favorite and only part I liked, besides my music classes :D Most everyone was caught up in the socializing aspect, which was nice for lunchtime imo but when it got time to schoolwork, I worked my butt off and really resented the ones who misbehaved in class or had no respect for teachers or authority. I made friends/acquantinces with every "clique" and I was just my own person. As for clothes? Unless you came to school in rags (literally) you were going to atleast resemble someone else. You had the preps wearing all the Abercrombie, goths/punks wearing all black and the nerds/"middle class" wearing stuff like Old Navy. This is supported by Aramina's above quote. Almost everyone atleast resembled someone or a "group." The only thing I see uniforms doing is limiting your options. Given the choice, 99% of people would just fall into a category anyway.

That said, it's foolish to judge someone based on their clothes, especially in ones youth and teenage years - At that age nobody is who they appear to be, I was suprised over and over again. As one becomes older, they are more aware of who they are and more importantly, aren't afraid to express it. So yay to that :D

Don't worry, I'm sure I would have some issues with a tie, since I haven't worn one in 10 years? Geeze, didn't realize it's been that long. >.<

wearing skirts in the winter seems unsafe. :-/ you could really get some cold weather injuries for having mandatory skirt days. i'm sure they will change that rule once someone dies or gets hurt though.

i'd like to have the next topic be this:

why is it that the boy scouts of America, which is a private organization, get to set their own rules about not accepting atheists and homosexuals but they use public money and lands? sorry but i get pissy when my tax dollars are spent on brain washing young boys with hate.

just a thought :P

I would wear my PJ bottoms under my uniform bottoms during -30C weather. ;-; Fine times, walking to school in blizzards, lol.

There's a show called Penn & Teller: *** that had an episode about this.

What I found most interesting about this topic is that, I was in the boy scouts until about summer after 6th grade. At the time I was in it for the fun, camping and such. But then they started to put pressure on me about getting merit badges and all that other stuff. Needless to say it stopped being fun, so me and a bunch of people I was friends with quit.

While I was in cub scouts - boy scouts I had no idea that did not accept Atheists. Gays, probably I mean where I grew up gay bashing was a huge thing, so it kind of came with the territory. But NO Atheists?! WOW!

I just memorized all the stuff about god and country they had you memorize and never put to much thought into it.

Anyway I think I was about 9-10 years old when I so called became an Atheist. Back then though I didn't realize that's what realizing god doesn't exist meant. For me it was more like this doesn't make any sense, seems most likely not possible, and decided that god or gods don't really exist.

I had a friend back then who was a religious type, and after weeks of him telling me about god and such, reading his children bible, almost convincing me to tend church one time, which I never did, I was just like, wow I'm not going swing this way.

I didn't even know what the word Atheist meant until I was 17 and got hit by a drunk driver. While I was in the hospital, the police officer who first came to the scene and doctor were like wow, I can't believe only your face got hurt (from the airbag). They said I should have had broken my leg or had more serious injuries then what happened. The Doctor said something like thank god you only had broken nose and nothing else. And I gave him a blank look, and was like, god?, god had nothing to do with this, I just moved my legs and body to the side in time as to not avoid more injuries. Then when the Officer started to ask me about my name, address, etc., one of his questions was what religion are you? I said None. None? Yeah none, I don't believe in any of that stuff. He laughed and said well I guess none qualifies as a religion, but you should know that's called an Atheist. LOL!

Guess they never should have let me in the scouts... lol!

The last time I had to tie ties was my very first job at CVS when I was 16. And me and my friend worked there, so they for the most part had us always working on the same schedule since either my mom or his mom drove us. Funny part was my mom didn't know how to tie a tie, the only person who did was my friend's mom. For the 6 months we worked there his mom always tied our ties, maybe about the last month I finally was able to tie it myself.

Next time I was faced with this problem was almost 10 years later, and I couldn't do it again. Funny thing is, girls seems to know how to tie ties better than guys. So I ended up having my friend tie it again, and she definitely did it a different way than from what I remember, but then again, who knows, lol! She only had to do it for me once, for a job interview and I got the job, only to find out people who actually worked at the place didn't wear ties. lol!

aren't there several different ways to tie a tie also?

i've never tied a tie and i probably never will, unless i want to be all sexy and tie one for a guy. im pretty sure theres more than one way to tie a tie though so it could get confusing.

Yeah there most likely is more than one way.
It's hot having a girl tie a tie for you, even if it's you're friend's mom, LOL!

And then when I was 26 (Im 28 now btw lol) another woman to the rescue again! Only this time she was around my age, lol.

Taking PM's for next debate topic, if I don't receive any by the end of the day I'll post up one myself.

Living in England we have to wear uniform and I think its a good idea, makes you look smart, everyone wears the same. Problem was my school was terrible at being strict and everyone wore it slobby with ties not done up to top, girls usually just wore it in clevage. If worn properly I think it is a very good thing.

I have just started sixth form where we dont have to wear uniform and it is a pain having to think what I got to wear every day. I miss uniform.

I'm all for school uniform(maybe because I didn't have a choice, school = uniform in England), but the ties have got to go. Hated hated hated wearing ties, still do.

White shirt, black blazer/sweater, black trousers, black shoes...yeah, looks good!

To answer OP, I'd have to say no. The reason for school uniforms (In my opinion) are so that people won't come to school in TShirts that have obscene things (Curse words, naked people, ect) on them. So enforce a dress code, but not a strict one, such as uniforms. The PUBLIC school that I go to now requires both girls and boys to wear colared (sp) shirts. That way, you don't have any people going out of line with skimpy clothes and such, but you still have a way to look good.

i say no. i went to school with uniforms and it was horrible. This is my opinion.

No matter whether it is right or wrong, every kid should grow up with those little stepping stones of learning and growing up. Kids should get made fun of, picked on, get in fights, get hurt on the swing, fail a class, get dumped by their bf/gf/both if they are young and experimental. i mean this reason is why i think Michael Jackson was so crazy. now i love michael jacksons music but he was a wierd guy. I think this comes from being rich and sheltered since he was 5yrs old or w/e. im prolly wrong but still. i think every kid should grow up with the same privilages and failures as the next. School uniforms remove the individual out of people and honestly hurts the parents even more. My mom struggled to afford to get us school uniforms AND clothes to go and play in. We didnt have money for that. If the school systems are going to make kids wear uniforms they should also supply the kids with the uniforms free of charge

We need more people like you.

is that sarcasm or you serious? imma assume serious. Kids need to learn how to grow and overcome adversity without mom holding there hand. Mom should step in but never fight the battle.

Totally serious. I see the constant interferences and coddling as a major problem in our current society.

i nearly got suspended in grade school on a few occasions because of this.

went to ye olde catholic school from first to eighth grade. Navy blue pants, white button/collared shirt, navy blue tie, black/brown shoes.

yeh yeh yeh, keeps everyone on the same level, blah blah blah. doesnt really work that great. saw little to no point to it, other than the controlling of children wearing outrageously labeled designer clothing. even though it still happened with kids wearing the pricier designer gear to suit the dress code.

and you'll always have the same few ppl who circumvent those rules, or find loopholes. yes, i wore my white shirt, blue pants every school day, but i was also rocking the grateful dead tie-dye undershirt. one week before we graduated, they introduced the "White undershirt" rule.

I know there's a sense of tradition along with the school colors, and what-not. but it's making the school system seem just like the prison system. same thing, everyday, bland. convicts wear the same thing, everyday. bland, but for a specific reason. Ok, you can show your associated gang colors, etc with no strict dress adherence code. But there are hundreds of ways for gangs to show affiliation that will just end up perpetuating itself as it does in the penal system. that said... let the kids wear their *** jeans and designer shirts. just pull them damned pants up, i don't wanna see the crack of yer ***.

edit: i am also on the same terms as saiji above. The world of butt whoopin, switches, paddles, etc are almost long gone, and hte world is in a sorrier state for it imo.

seeing the degenerate society we are fast becoming... I don't think the "Time-outs" are doing the trick, as i see my institutions young adult population increase. If mama woulda whooped your ***, you might not have raped/shot/robbed that chick/dude on the street. instead ur *** might have gotten a job, bc you broke your dads favorite table and needed to pay for it. The ideologies of this world are falling ot teh wayside in fear of punishment over trivial issues.

Yes there is a difference between beating the living piss outta your 5 year old, and giving him/her a good old fashioned spanking. Turn my country into a softer whinier place to live, please. i beg it. /facepalm