Capping Out Taeon Augments For The Most Efficiency

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フォーラム » FFXI » Jobs » Beast Master » Capping out Taeon Augments for the most efficiency
Capping out Taeon Augments for the most efficiency
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By KnifeKatRengar 2016-01-21 06:23:59  
Just simple question.

Assuming my Pet is dead during an event, because I do not have sufficient funds yet to supply myself with Muslims, nor my Reward Timer is up...

Lets say I die, right after I Call Beast. Or Bestial Loyalty. And all my timers are down. At that point, I am entirely useless.

Unless, I have a TP set during the downtime on timers.

I already have what I am going to use, however my real question is the following in regard to augments:

Assuming I will not be graced with having a 3-4-Song Bard, and only will be obtaining Haste II from a RDM in another party, and I have 26(Cap I think?) in Gear...

How much Dual Wield do I need to compensate to cap out my attack Delay.

I am under the knowledge that the Haste/Song/Magic/Gear/DW "Haste" is 80% Total.

So, with 26% Haste in Gear, and Haste II being 30, that brings us to 56% So far.

I will most likely always be /NIN to events in the LS I am in. While it is useless due shadows being always wiped by AOE...its for the Dual Axes. I have a dedicated WHM.(I'm saying this so people don't suggest different SJs, or gear etc.)

I just need to know how much in DW+??numberhere?? to cap out at the total 80% Cap.

Assuming the Augments on Taeon for Dual Wield is 1% per +1 on an Augment.

Appreciate any insight on this. I just do not want to cap out over the 80% mark, when I could supplement the over-used Dual Wield that doesn't add anything to my 80% Cap for TA Augments instead. Which would be more efficient.
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By Cerberus.Tidis 2016-01-21 06:51:03  
Well assuming 25% DW from /NIN, capped gear haste and haste 1, you would need 42% more DW in gear.
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By KnifeKatRengar 2016-01-21 09:54:55  
Cerberus.Tidis said: »
Well assuming 25% DW from /NIN, capped gear haste and haste 1, you would need 42% more DW in gear.

80% is the max. You're saying 25% is the DW you get from /NIN?

So 26% Gear Haste. + Haste II(30%), is 56% Haste so far. That leaves 24% left. Wouldn't just having /NIN cover it completely, if DW is a 25% Delay Decrease(Not considering your weapon delay.)
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By Cerberus.Tidis 2016-01-21 09:57:49  
You say you have Haste II? Sorry missed that one, I was factoring in regular Haste, in that case it's 31% DW.

Basically it's not a case of doing Gear Haste + Magic Haste + DW = Delay reduction, the formula is:

1 - DW x ((1024- Gear Haste - Magic Haste - JA Haste)/1024) = Delay reamaining

So as I say with your set up you need 31% DW to add to your 25% /NIN DW for 56% so...

1 - 0.56 x (1024 - 256 (Gear Haste) - 300 (Haste II)) / 1024 =

0.44 x 468 / 1024 = 0.201 (3dp) delay remaining
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By KnifeKatRengar 2016-01-21 10:01:10  
Cerberus.Tidis said: »
You say you have Haste II? Sorry missed that one, I was factoring in regular Haste, in that case it's 31% DW.

That still brings it into the situation as above. Haste II and Gear Haste puts me at 56. Leaving 24% Left. Wouldn't /NIN DW3(25%) Cap me out at my max possible attack rate? Since 25% of the "Haste" is missing?

And adding DW+% would be pointless in gear?
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By Bismarck.Ihina 2016-01-21 10:02:44  
Haste cap is 25%, but you need 26% in gear to hit it, because fractions.

The answer is 31-32%, depending on how SE does the rounding. I think most people assume 31%
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By Cerberus.Tidis 2016-01-21 10:04:35  
Since new posts I'll mention I edited my previous post explaining why you need 31% DW
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By KnifeKatRengar 2016-01-21 10:13:53  
Cerberus.Tidis said: »
Since new posts I'll mention I edited my previous post explaining why you need 31% DW

Could you simplify that. I am not too good with crunching numbers.

In the same sense. What would the equivalent of TA to DW Ratio be?

Because if I need 31% DW to cap out, and lets say 1 TA is 2%-3~5% DW, I would rather supplement that, just because I am not loosing TP I would be loosing due to having TA instead.(Even though I know TA and DA does not count towards that cap, its basically the same thing. I am told 1% DA is the equivalent to 2% DW. So assuming if 1 TA is 2% DA, then 1 TA is 4% DW.?)

So if that is true, I would have to put DW+5% on every single piece of Taeon, and even then, that would be 29%(Since Feet give you 4% as well).

Would rather not have to remove Windbuffet Belt, or supplement an Earring for additional TA if possible.
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2016-01-21 10:15:27  
~55% DW with Haste II.

Remember that Haste and DW are separate terms, rather than simply added together. Additionally, 26% in gear haste is used to hit the 25% gear cap since haste is expressed in fractions of 1024 and actual values tend to be slightly under their expected integer values.

With Haste II you're at 256/1024 (gear) + 307/1024 (spell) = 563/1024, or 54.98% delay reduction. Close enough to 55% for our purposes.

(1-0.55)*(1-x)=0.2, where x is your DW%. A little algebra will give you an answer just over 0.55 (~0.556). Too much and you just lose TP/hit, so you're generally best off erring on the low side in such cases.

Quote:
What would the equivalent of TA to DW Ratio be?
There's really no simple answer for this. Very few stats ever interact in such a simple manner. Context (other gear in this case) matters.
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By dustinfoley 2016-01-21 10:49:42  
TA doesnt translate directly into DW. Unless you wanna look at it in a purely swings/minute type thing and ignore the rest.

Without knowing your current weapons/delay its hard to get any more exact. So here is an example:

200 delay with haste 2 and /nin = .33 delay reduction, aka delay of 60 -> 1 swing / second...60 swings per minute.

With capped delay it would be 90 swings per minute.

To get 90 swings per minute with haste 2 /nin, you would need any 1 of the follow. Honestly DW is the easiest option,
1) 50% DA
2) 25% TA
3) 31 % DW
4) 12.5% QA
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By KnifeKatRengar 2016-01-21 10:50:16  
Fenrir.Nightfyre said: »
~55% DW with Haste II.

Remember that Haste and DW are separate terms, rather than simply added together. Additionally, 26% in gear haste is used to hit the 25% gear cap since haste is expressed in fractions of 1024 and actual values tend to be slightly under their expected integer values.

With Haste II you're at 256/1024 (gear) + 307/1024 (spell) = 563/1024, or 54.98% delay reduction. Close enough to 55% for our purposes.

(1-0.55)*(1-x)=0.2, where x is your DW%. A little algebra will give you an answer just over 0.55 (~0.556). Too much and you just lose TP/hit, so you're generally best off erring on the low side in such cases.

Quote:
What would the equivalent of TA to DW Ratio be?
There's really no simple answer for this. Very few stats ever interact in such a simple manner. Context (other gear in this case) matters.

Now one person says 31% in +DW and the other says 55. Are you saying 55% TOTAL including /NIN?


Other thing is:

One person saying one thing, one another. Who is actually correct.

Quote:
TA doesnt translate directly into DW. Unless you wanna look at it in a purely swings/minute type thing and ignore the rest.

Without knowing your current weapons/delay its hard to get any more exact. So here is an example:

200 delay with haste 2 and /nin = .33 delay reduction, aka delay of 60 -> 1 swing / second...60 swings per minute.

With capped delay it would be 90 swings per minute.

To get 90 swings per minute with haste 2 /nin, you would need any 1 of the follow. Honestly DW is the easiest option,
1) 50% DA
2) 25% TA
3) 31 % DW
4) 12.5% QA
I want to look at it as this:

Lets say 1 TA is 4% DW. I would rather want that 1 TA, because the 4% DW I'd get, would make me loose my TP I'd gain vs me attacking more rounds.
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By dustinfoley 2016-01-21 10:54:51  
From where you currently stand, you need a total of 55% dual wield to cap delay reduction, you already have 25%, so you need 30~31% more to cap it.

FROM WHERE YOU CURRENTLY ARE:
4 TA = 5 DW

If you gain DW/other buffs this will change.
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By KnifeKatRengar 2016-01-21 11:17:00  
dustinfoley said: »
From where you currently stand, you need a total of 55% dual wield to cap delay reduction, you already have 25%, so you need 30~31% more to cap it.

FROM WHERE YOU CURRENTLY ARE:
4 TA = 5 DW

If you gain DW/other buffs this will change.

Where is your backup information to show that 4 TA is the equivalent to 5 DW. That just looks like random numbers written down.
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2016-01-21 11:35:43  
KnifeKatRengar said: »
Are you saying 55% TOTAL including /NIN?
Yes. Tidis was only counting gear DW.

Quote:
Lets say 1 TA is 4% DW. I would rather want that 1 TA, because the 4% DW I'd get, would make me loose my TP I'd gain vs me attacking more rounds.
I won't speak as to whether your preference is correct or not (again, context matters), but this difference in behavior is part of why accurately equating TA to DW is not a straightforward task. However, it is worth noting that DW still increases your TP gain per unit time in situations where you don't exceed the delay cap.

Start with a 288 delay axe for example. 288 delay=17+(288×489÷2000)=87 TP/hit. 87*60/288=18.125 TP/sec or 1087.5 TP/min.

Add a second 288 axe and DW3, new delay is 216: 69 TP/hit, 19.167 TP/sec, 1150 TP/min.

55% DW total: 129.6 delay. We're below 175 delay now, new formula: 32+((129.6-12)×11÷64)=52 TP/hit, 24.074 TP/sec, 1444.444 TP/min.

That <175 delay formula changes things up a bit, because TP/time starts to scale noticeably faster below that point. For dual 288 axes, you drop below that threshold at 40% total DW.
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By Leviathan.Vow 2016-01-21 11:36:56  
This is a list of haste buff combinations and the amount of dual wield required
to cap delay reduction. Dual wield values are based on NIN's native dual wield,
so you'll need to tack on the difference for other jobs. Buffs are in the order
haste > geo-haste > samba > march, so a search for geo-haste (with a dunna equipped),
an unmerited samba, and haste would be H + G(D) + S1.

Your text to link here...
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By dustinfoley 2016-01-21 11:42:01  
KnifeKatRengar said: »
dustinfoley said: »
From where you currently stand, you need a total of 55% dual wield to cap delay reduction, you already have 25%, so you need 30~31% more to cap it.

FROM WHERE YOU CURRENTLY ARE:
4 TA = 5 DW

If you gain DW/other buffs this will change.

Where is your backup information to show that 4 TA is the equivalent to 5 DW. That just looks like random numbers written down.


From my earlier post:
1) 50% DA
2) 25% TA
3) 31 % DW
4) 12.5% QA

25 TA = 31 DW -> 4 TA ~5 DW
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2016-01-21 11:47:20  
That's not an accurate comparison. You've given no consideration to WS frequency or baseline hits/round.
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By dustinfoley 2016-01-21 11:58:58  
On a side note, people are trying very hard to help you and you are making it very hard to want to help you.

Try being less rude when people give answer and try actually reading the posts you are replying to and quoting. I get your not great with math, but if you are not going to read peoples posts, dont bother replying to them. If one person says you need 55% DW TOTAL and another say you need 31% more...that is the same thing. Neither person is wrong.

Same when it comes to TA and DW being non-equivalent. There are tons of factors and they are not going to be a solid 1:4 always no mater what ratio.

Going from (0.33) delay reduction to (0.2) delay reduction requires adding 31% DW as stated numerous times before by multiple people.

In the range of .31 -> .2, 4-5TA ~5-6 DW as long as we are only talking about swings per minute, if you go by tp/second its going to be different.


If you drop your nin sub, you now need .55 dw to cap and only have haste II. without sub nin, you need over 100% TA rate to reach the same number of swings per minute as 55% dw.
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By dustinfoley 2016-01-21 11:59:38  
Fenrir.Nightfyre said: »
That's not an accurate comparison. You've given no consideration to WS frequency or baseline hits/round.

I said as long as you only go by swings per minute and even said its not accurate just a close approximation.
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By KnifeKatRengar 2016-01-21 12:03:46  
Fenrir.Nightfyre said: »
KnifeKatRengar said: »
Are you saying 55% TOTAL including /NIN?
Yes. Tidis was only counting gear DW.

Quote:
Lets say 1 TA is 4% DW. I would rather want that 1 TA, because the 4% DW I'd get, would make me loose my TP I'd gain vs me attacking more rounds.
I won't speak as to whether your preference is correct or not (again, context matters), but this difference in behavior is part of why accurately equating TA to DW is not a straightforward task. However, it is worth noting that DW still increases your TP gain per unit time in situations where you don't exceed the delay cap.

Start with a 288 delay axe for example. 288 delay=17+(288×489÷2000)=87 TP/hit. 87*60/288=18.125 TP/sec or 1087.5 TP/min.

Add a second 288 axe and DW3, new delay is 216: 69 TP/hit, 19.167 TP/sec, 1150 TP/min.

55% DW total: 129.6 delay. We're below 175 delay now, new formula: 32+((129.6-12)×11÷64)=52 TP/hit, 24.074 TP/sec, 1444.444 TP/min.

That <175 delay formula changes things up a bit, because TP/time starts to scale noticeably faster below that point. For dual 288 axes, you drop below that threshold at 40% total DW.


So, technically in that same regard, I would want Augments to look something like this:

Haste: +26% From Taeon Gear alone.
Haste II: 30% (Now 56).
DWIII: 30%-meaning I need 15% DW to reach the cap.

So Augments on the Feet: Acc+20/Atk+20. Dual Wield+5%, DEX+10(or)STR+7/DEX+7(Which I think is better imo anyways). Feet Alone would give me 9% of the 15% I need. So having 5% more DW on another piece would cap me. Minus 1%. So having TA on the Body/Head/Legs(or)Hands would be fine. Since I would not need more DW Augments. I'd rather have the TA than waste a 1% Augment on DW.

This leaves open Windbuffet Belt+1 without needing the Sash for DW.

Nor do I have to rely on using Suppi, or the Dual Wield Earrings. Then I could use the Brutal Earring, and the Acc+12 Earring instead. Unless Acc is an issue then I can always add more acc.


Unless I sub DNC, sacrifice a single DW tier for the Acc Bonus from /DNC. But would that be more efficient vs the prior? Or would you be sacrificing too much DPS in Augments just trying to compensate for the DW you lost?
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2016-01-21 12:07:39  
DW3 is 25%, and as previously noted you need more than 15% in gear to cap...
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By KnifeKatRengar 2016-01-21 12:08:32  
Fenrir.Nightfyre said: »
DW3 is 25%, and as previously noted you need more than 15% in gear to cap...

Then I don't know how I could cap it. If the DW+ is direct % Increases, and you need 55% DW, how would I know when its capped then. Since its (from a quick glance): You're missing 15% Dual Wield.

>_>; tldr; - How much DW in Gear would I need to make up the missing % I need to cap out at 55%.
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2016-01-21 12:10:04  
25+?=55
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By KnifeKatRengar 2016-01-21 12:11:28  
Well I feel stupid now. I will blame it on poor sleep. And misreading what I typed.

So even if I had DW+5 on every single piece, and 4% on Feet. I am still missing 1% DW. I would be okay with this.
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By dustinfoley 2016-01-21 12:26:31  
If you have 5 on head/body/hands/legs and 4 on feet, thats 24/31%

Not capped, but good enough.
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By KnifeKatRengar 2016-01-21 15:18:43  
Not making it hard on people wanting to help me. I just simply wished to see validated tests/proof, as I am not the one to take anyone's word for something...since we all can come in here and say whatever we want to troll if that so ever be the case.(Since it is with some people)

ItemSet 341367

Taeon Augments:

Acc+20/Atk+20 - All Pieces.

Feet: DW+5(Total of 9% DW from natural DW on Feet)
Legs: DW+5
Hands: DW+5
Head: DW+5

DEX+7/STR+7 vs DEX+10. Maybe DEX+10 if I wanted to use



So thought about this set instead of the mess up top:

ItemSet 341386


This set would cap me out at the 31% needed. While only sacrificing about 4~Acc(Since I won't have zenn. Earring equipped.) But I added Olseni Belt to compensate for the loss of acc. Unless Windbuffet Belt would be better?

With this set I could have a single TA Augment on the Legs and still be capped out once I have Haste II Applied. (With Taeon Tabard), or if I used Mes(I think is better in acc situations by Faffy's BST Thread) - I'd be required to have DW+5 on Taeon Legs as well. Tradeoff would be 10 more attack, 10 more acc, and 2 DA.


Below is my WS Set based on Side-by-Side Comparisons of the Abjuration gear from Escha. Same with Valor Gear.

Compared the armor for Ruinator on Faffy's Thread Guide, vs the new gear to find the most optimal setup. I think his is for more a realistic setup. But I would like to think that I don't have to limit myself to just that~

ItemSet 341387

Valor Legs would have to have 15 STR Augment and preferred 30 Attack, but I think 30 Acc might be better for consistency. It would have to have 15 STR to beat out other options.

Lustratio Armor Set is all Augmented Along Path [A]. Feet might be better Augmented on Path [D]. (For the sake of more STR while adding DEX/Acc. Since other paths do not offer this.)
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By Sylph.Oraen 2016-01-21 16:11:57  
Don't forget about Eabani Earring, Suppanomimi, Patentia Sash, Reiki Yotai, or Shetal Stone as solid Dual Wield accessories.

I'd also highly suggest removing Hasty Pinion from your sets. Negative STP is a terrible stat to have, and you'll get much better mileage out of Ginsen.
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By KnifeKatRengar 2016-01-21 17:16:18  
Sylph.Oraen said: »
Eabani Earring

Better Mileage out of Ginsen, what about Hasty for WS -(Acc Purposes). Only thing I could think of for WS is C.Needle, unless you'd WS w/Ginsen as well.

I'd only ever use Suppi if I used any item for DW. I'm also sacrificing too much acc by removing Zenn.Earring from the TP set.

I can't get anything beneficial from Taeon beyond a TA Augment if I add more DW elsewhere. But then I am sacrificing 20 acc from Belt, 12 Acc from Earring, if I am using Sash, and Suppi, just to add TA Augments for Taeon. Specially when acc is an issue in the first place.

Some people say having more than 1200 Acc is too much, but I'd rather have more Acc, and make sure I am consistent, than risk my failed attempt at numbers - making my DPS substantially lower than it should be because I neglected Acc in slots it was needed in.
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By Sylph.Oraen 2016-01-21 17:41:47  
Amar Cluster, Cheruski Needle, and Floestone are all great STR WS pieces.

You need to consider opportunity costs when it comes to items. Let's say you only need 5% more DW to cap. You decide to use a 20/20 acc/atk and 5% DW Taeon body along with your Zennaroi earring. But if you dropped the Zennaroi for Suppa and instead used Mesyohi Haubergeon or Valorous Mail, you'd gain far more accuracy without sacrificing your DW. Always look at your gear from a holistic approach rather than separate pieces. Weigh the costs and benefits of each swap.

I agree that accuracy is very important, but there is definitely such a thing as too much. If you're 100 acc over cap, then that's simply wasting stats that could be far better used for multi-attack, crit rate, or STP gear.

If you're doing Ru'Aunn T1s 1200 is far more than necessary, but Reisen T1s are a different story. If you could give examples of content from which you're basing your accuracy requirements, it might be beneficial to help narrow down superior swaps.
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