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Random Politics & Religion #06
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2016-06-06 13:51:33
I guess the appropriate question now is this:
Do you wonder why you automatically feel a certain way when faced with a situation or do you not even notice it?
Watching a male punch a female, even in cases that they deserve it, always got a flash of anger from me. I noticed it, I questioned it, I sought answers, and I discovered my inner psych. I also know that not many people do that, which is a shame in my opinion.
How about you? Have you questioned it, or do you not even notice it?
For me, gender matters less than the context and relative size of the people involved. Men are generally larger and stronger than women, so the psychological component is pretty similar to seeing a large person hit a smaller person. That's an interesting point of view.
I have noticed that, even for a half-of-a-second in cases where a woman plays a villain, I do get angry at the man for hitting/damaging/killing her.
サーバ: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10394
By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2016-06-06 13:53:16
Quote: Asura.Kingnobody said: »
I guess the appropriate question now is this:
Do you wonder why you automatically feel a certain way when faced with a situation or do you not even notice it?
Watching a male punch a female, even in cases that they deserve it, always got a flash of anger from me. I noticed it, I questioned it, I sought answers, and I discovered my inner psych. I also know that not many people do that, which is a shame in my opinion.
How about you? Have you questioned it, or do you not even notice it?
Randomly seeing people hit eachother provokes a 'break it up mentality' here. Seeing a random guy hit a woman, especially in some domestic dispute is doubly troublesome since it probably means worse abuses at home. Statistics etc. Seeing some women get hit by guys after being provoking, mocking and spitting? No sympathy here. Seeing someone get jumped or sucker punched? Yeah, sympathy goes out.
I refuse to give women a pass for behavior they know is wrong. You can't pretend to be innocent and defenseless and at the same time be a provocateur. That ain't how life works. It's the same way that seeing a guy talk a lot of ***and get put in the ground is hilarious. Don't write checks your *** can't cash.
By Jassik 2016-06-06 14:41:30
I think the number of assaults committed by women against men go largely undocumented. Men are often ashamed or unwilling to report for the same reason women are more likely to be considered the victim in an altercation. It's a societal preconception based on historic gender roles. That doesn't make it right by any stretch of the imagination, but women and men are different physiologically, so there will always be some inequality in their roles, at least in a biological sense.
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Ragnarok.Nausi
サーバ: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6709
By Ragnarok.Nausi 2016-06-06 16:20:50
Welcome to the world of unintended (and not surprising to some) consequences.
Quote: Haines senior Nattaphon Wangyot–who self-identifies as a girl–advanced to the state finals in the 100-meter and 200-meter events. He won fifth place in the 100-meter dash and third place in the 200-meter. In both events, he competed against girls as young as ninth grade.
One of the girls Wangyot beat out for a slot at the state meet, Hutchison runner Emma Daniels, took issue with allowing a male athlete to compete in girls events.
“I’m glad that this person is comfortable with who they are and they’re able to be happy in who they are, but I don’t think it’s competitively completely 100-percent fair,” she told a local CBS station.
Another runner, Peyton Young (who competed in a different event) took a similar position. “I don’t know what’s politically correct to say, but in my opinion your gender is what you’re born with,” she told the Alaska Dispatch News.
“It’s the DNA. Genetically a guy has more muscle mass than a girl, and if he’s racing against a girl, he may have an advantage.”
Alaska allows each school to decide whether to let boys compete in individual girls’ events. According to the Alaska Dispatch News, Wangyot’s district doesn’t even require boys to undergo hormone therapy before competing in girls’ events.
“For the purposes of gender identification for interscholastic activities, the district will consider the gender identity based on the student’s consistent declaration of gender identity, their actions, attitude, dress and mannerisms,” the policy states.
Wangyot — who immigrated from Thailand in 2014, according to the Alaska Dispatch News — also played on the girls’ volleyball and basketball teams.
Alaska Family Action president Jim Minnery, organized a protest against forcing teenage girls to compete against male athletes.
“We are here today as a voice from the community to ensure that female athletes are not denied the playing opportunities and scholarships otherwise available to them and to make the playing field even again,” he said.
Minnery argued that “Allowing students to play on teams of the opposite sex disproportionately impacts female students, who will lose spots on a track, soccer and volleyball teams to male students who identify as female.”
Pffft, what a bunch of transphobic bigots. Damn right he "may", keep that privilege in check.
Seriously though, in all this PC transgender BS, it's pretty clear women dis-proportionally suffer from it's effects. What's up with this liberal war on women?
Ragnarok.Nausi
サーバ: Ragnarok
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Posts: 6709
By Ragnarok.Nausi 2016-06-06 16:23:00
I think the number of assaults committed by women against men go largely undocumented. Men are often ashamed or unwilling to report for the same reason women are more likely to be considered the victim in an altercation. It's a societal preconception based on historic gender roles. That doesn't make it right by any stretch of the imagination, but women and men are different physiologically, so there will always be some inequality in their roles, at least in a biological sense.
Careful there, you just made the case the inequality isn't inherently "bad".
Valefor.Sehachan
サーバ: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 24219
By Valefor.Sehachan 2016-06-06 16:25:27
it's pretty clear women dis-proportionally suffer from it's effects You're a man. I'm a woman.
Yet you're the one bitching here while I'm completely fine.
How strange. Avoid the stupid addendums please.
Ragnarok.Raenil
By Ragnarok.Raenil 2016-06-06 16:28:40
I think the number of assaults committed by women against men go largely undocumented. Men are often ashamed or unwilling to report for the same reason women are more likely to be considered the victim in an altercation. It's a societal preconception based on historic gender roles. That doesn't make it right by any stretch of the imagination, but women and men are different physiologically, so there will always be some inequality in their roles, at least in a biological sense.
Careful there, you just made the case the inequality isn't inherently "bad". Social inequality isn't the same as having an inherently different biological build.
Good job blabbing about nothing.
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Cerberus.Pleebo
サーバ: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9720
By Cerberus.Pleebo 2016-06-06 16:41:52
Pffft, what a bunch of transphobic bigots. Damn right he "may", keep that privilege in check.
Seriously though, in all this PC transgender BS, it's pretty clear women dis-proportionally suffer from it's effects. What's up with this liberal war on women? The only people suffering when transgendered people are treated respectably are the bigots. Hormone therapy would essentially neutralize the inherent sex-based differences in musculature. Not every organization has rules based around that but it would effectively dispel the concerns over unfair advantages. From what I'm reading, no one even realized nor cared this particular athlete was transgender until the concern trolls of some conservative activist group started bitching protesting.
Bahamut.Ravael
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 13640
By Bahamut.Ravael 2016-06-06 16:55:25
The only people suffering when transgendered people are treated respectably are the bigots. Hormone therapy would essentially neutralize the inherent sex-based differences in musculature.
Depends on the event, as size and skeletal structure could afford advantages. And what about the places that don't require hormone therapy? I'd say that the girls who lose spots to "girls" that are boys in all but name suffer too.
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Valefor.Sehachan
サーバ: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 24219
By Valefor.Sehachan 2016-06-06 17:03:53
I've said in a past thread, but (professional)sport is the only area where I think drawing the line for trans is difficult. Because gender divisions exist solely based on the different physical structures of men and women(although many exceptions that break the gender "tendencies" exist). I'd say if someone is on hormonal therapy it should be fine; even though for some activities the different skeletal builds could have an impact, but then again there are vastly different bodied people even in the same natural gender.
So yeah, to me if someone is on hormones already then it can be switched over.
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Bahamut.Ravael
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 13640
By Bahamut.Ravael 2016-06-06 17:15:47
I've said in a past thread, but (professional)sport is the only area where I think drawing the line for trans is difficult. Because gender divisions exist solely based on the different physical structures of men and women(although many exceptions that break the gender "tendencies" exist). I'd say if someone is on hormonal therapy it should be fine; even though for some activities the different skeletal builds could have an impact, but then again there are vastly different bodied people even in the same natural gender.
So yeah, to me if someone is on hormones already then it can be switched over.
It needs to be more regulated, imo. Obviously not all transgender people are doing it to cheat in sports, but there ought to be some medically acceptable standard to keep things fair.
It's a painfully grey area when you consider that Beefy McBeefcakes who got ripped as a dude before taking hormone replacement therapy is still going to have an advantage over a woman who never had the testosterone jump-start to ever achieve such muscle. I'd rather see transgender sport leagues to make sure things are 100% fair, but obviously it could prove difficult to fill teams like that in areas with low populations.
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Ragnarok.Raenil
By Ragnarok.Raenil 2016-06-06 17:29:44
I don't see how it's any more unfair than having an cis-woman with an unusual biological disposition towards height/stength taking part in a sport.
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Bahamut.Ravael
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 13640
By Bahamut.Ravael 2016-06-06 17:43:08
I don't see how it's any more unfair than having an cis-woman with an unusual biological disposition towards height/stength taking part in a sport.
It's simple. For a clear example, look at some of the strength-based Olympic sports. Shot put world records for men and women are pretty close, actually, around 23 meters... until you realize that men use a 16-pound shot while women use an 8.8. Yeah, mother nature isn't very fair when it comes to biological dispositions(Kenyans in marathons ring a bell), but a woman born to shot put that's breaking world records would still probably lose to the dude who got last place in the Olympics that year if she was forced to use a 16-pound weight. There's that much of a difference.
Cerberus.Pleebo
サーバ: Cerberus
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Posts: 9720
By Cerberus.Pleebo 2016-06-06 17:44:52
I think a rule based on a minimum hormone treatment interval is a good compromise between recognizing a potential issue, basing the solution around science, and not excluding a minority group. Mr. Beefcakes can't maintain any potential advantage he had before hormone treatment because the body can't maintain it without proper testosterone levels. The biology just doesn't work that way.
There's no way to truly equalize fairness because variation is going to exist both between and within sexes that is inherently going to make some individuals better than others. As it stands now, the transgendered aren't dominating any woman's sports, which is what one would expect if a cis male was competing. That's not definitive proof by any means but it does support the biology in an applied context.
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Valefor.Sehachan
サーバ: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 24219
By Valefor.Sehachan 2016-06-06 17:46:14
I think a rule based on a minimum hormone treatment interval is a good compromise between recognizing a potential issue, basing the solution around science, and not excluding a minority group. Mr. Beefcakes can't maintain any potential advantage he had before hormone treatment because the body can't maintain it without proper testosterone levels. The biology just doesn't work that way. This is pretty much what I was thinking too.
Hormones are key here.
Valefor.Sehachan
サーバ: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 24219
By Valefor.Sehachan 2016-06-06 17:48:27
Though I wonder if the hormonal therapy still allows for proper doping controls? I'm not sure how they work so I'm not jumping the gun.
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Bahamut.Ravael
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 13640
By Bahamut.Ravael 2016-06-06 17:55:32
I think a rule based on a minimum hormone treatment interval is a good compromise between recognizing a potential issue, basing the solution around science, and not excluding a minority group. Mr. Beefcakes can't maintain any potential advantage he had before hormone treatment because the body can't maintain it without proper testosterone levels. The biology just doesn't work that way.
There's no way to truly equalize fairness because variation is going to exist both between and within sexes that is inherently going to make some individuals better than others. As it stands now, the transgendered aren't dominating any woman's sports, which is what one would expect if a cis male was competing. That's not definitive proof by any means but it does support the biology in an applied context.
Eh, at least you recognize that there is no way to equalize fairness here. But there is still merit in the argument that someone trying to maintain muscle after taking female hormones is going to have an advantage over someone who has to try to build from the ground up without ever having the same amount of testosterone.
But yeah, we're at least close to being on the same page here (for once). I certainly don't have the credentials to determine the specifics of how much hormone therapy would be needed, but the answer should definitely be greater than zero to prevent incidents like in the story above.
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By Jassik 2016-06-06 18:34:38
I think the number of assaults committed by women against men go largely undocumented. Men are often ashamed or unwilling to report for the same reason women are more likely to be considered the victim in an altercation. It's a societal preconception based on historic gender roles. That doesn't make it right by any stretch of the imagination, but women and men are different physiologically, so there will always be some inequality in their roles, at least in a biological sense.
Careful there, you just made the case the inequality isn't inherently "bad".
Inequality exists in many forms and for many different reasons. Beings develop specializations that makes them inherently unequal. Native Africans have developed darker skin to better tolerate the more direct sunlight. Many of the specializations are no longer useful or necessary, but they still exist biologically. The problem with inequality comes about when people use those specializations as justification to disadvantage a group. Women traditionally raised the children back when men hunted for food. Men were stronger and larger because their lifestyle favored those traits. We're not hunter gatherers anymore, so the societal stigma of men staying at home or women having a career, simply because their physiology is different is stupid.
Inequality is a broad subject, and the way I'm using it isn't necessarily the way feminists do.
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Asura.Saevel
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9910
By Asura.Saevel 2016-06-06 21:00:33
I think a rule based on a minimum hormone treatment interval is a good compromise between recognizing a potential issue, basing the solution around science, and not excluding a minority group. Mr. Beefcakes can't maintain any potential advantage he had before hormone treatment because the body can't maintain it without proper testosterone levels. The biology just doesn't work that way.
There's no way to truly equalize fairness because variation is going to exist both between and within sexes that is inherently going to make some individuals better than others. As it stands now, the transgendered aren't dominating any woman's sports, which is what one would expect if a cis male was competing. That's not definitive proof by any means but it does support the biology in an applied context.
Eh, at least you recognize that there is no way to equalize fairness here. But there is still merit in the argument that someone trying to maintain muscle after taking female hormones is going to have an advantage over someone who has to try to build from the ground up without ever having the same amount of testosterone.
But yeah, we're at least close to being on the same page here (for once). I certainly don't have the credentials to determine the specifics of how much hormone therapy would be needed, but the answer should definitely be greater than zero to prevent incidents like in the story above.
It's not just the amount of free Test, male skeletal systems are denser and able to withstand more punishment. Around the age of seven to ten a males brain will start generating far more testosterone then normal which cause's the bones to grow more dense. In turn this causes the human to be more capable of taking physical stress and injury. Gender reassignment surgery won't change any of that.
The Sochi Winter Olympics demonstrated this with their Co-ed courses that resulted in incredibly high female injury rates.
Asura.Saevel
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9910
By Asura.Saevel 2016-06-06 21:05:43
Sparth, I'm sure you agree that seeing a male getting punched/shot is emotionally different than seeing a female getting punched/shot, at least at a social standpoint.
Men have always been protective towards women since the Stone Age. To see abuse towards women, we instinctively anger towards the abuser. Even in a good vs. evil situation where we know that woman deserves it, some piece of our mind gets pissed off (even for just a second) when the woman gets it.
That's just human nature.
Get away from here with your hate speech bio-truths! Only real-truths and new-facts will be accepted, anything else is heresy against the politically accepted faith.
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Siren.Mosin
By Siren.Mosin 2016-06-06 22:10:35
Yes, we were once monkeys, that's why we have the incessant need to fling proverbial ***.
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Caitsith.Zahrah
By Caitsith.Zahrah 2016-06-06 22:34:43
Yes, we were once monkeys, that's why we have the incessant need to fling proverbial ***.
Oh! What bizarre new revelation is this. How many times has it been reiterated with tangible studies on how men's testosterone is determined by women's reactions? Hormonal influence? What is this? It's been stated many times but I suffer from short term memory loss!
***! It gets tiring.
[Mod Edit: Requested - AnnaMolly]
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Caitsith.Zahrah
By Caitsith.Zahrah 2016-06-06 22:36:49
Rooks, can I get awesome post-ribeye wine tipsy edits? Fuuuuck, man!
Garuda.Chanti
サーバ: Garuda
Game: FFXI
Posts: 11402
By Garuda.Chanti 2016-06-07 09:26:45
Major news sources said that Hillary has all the deligates she needs.
This before polls opened today for primaries in 8 states....
Hillary Clinton clinches Democratic presidential nomination
CNN
Why the AP called it for Clinton
Politico
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Forum Moderator
サーバ: Excalibur
Game: FFXIV
Posts: 25993
By Anna Ruthven 2016-06-07 16:08:12
...and Sanders is still fighting. I hope when I get old, I'm that stubborn.
"Uhh, AnnaMolly, you lost. You can't win."
"*** you! I'm still gonna try."
Bahamut.Ravael
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 13640
By Bahamut.Ravael 2016-06-07 16:24:17
Yeah, that's smart. Calling it early has never been seen as a really stupid mistake before now.
Way to go, media giants. Just go ahead and turn even more people against you.
Node 285
Happy Memorial Day.
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