Jack Of All Trades: A Guide To Red Mage

So them giving RDM a self target only spell that gives them 33%+ TA sounds like they want RDM to be, "less melee oriented"?

And frankly you need to be more concise, you get so ranty that I don't even feel like responding to your verbosity, which might mistakenly lead people to believe you are correct. (Which I'm not saying you're wrong persay, it's just frankly overwhelming)

Maybe you are different in person, and it's VERY possible we might be quite friendly to one another in-game, I wouldn't know since we are on different servers... but I cannot ignore the way you come across here.

Frankly you say you don't think any adjustments should be able to change how a job is used in terms of party setups... The whole point of making adjustments is that when you feel they are needed they should have enough impact to be noticable. This is a fundamental difference in our ideals that I doubt we will reconcile.

lol wat

But 33% TA doesnt make dd a "standard" rdm pt role in endgame though. Rdm taking a dd spot is still limited to career rdms only.

This is unlike blu that if they ask to join pt, they get a dd slot by default.

I dont feel se intentionally push rdm into melee role. They may give melee stuff here and there, then it just stop at one point.

See that's exactly the issue... COR is so versatile you can't find content that they wouldn't be useful in, and they are tied to crucial buffs like Samurai Roll. This is why people say it's overpowered, it takes a DD slot AND a buffer slot in 1 party slot, the exact thing you're complaining about them doing to RDM... hence the comparison.

A little tangent that will help explain why people call that overpoweredness is, in Esports, like LoL and Overwatch, they determine how OP a champion or hero is based on their pick rate. COR in this content has a pick rate close to 100%.

And frankly who really cares if it's a little OP. I don't think they should nerf SMN either, but I also don't think RDM getting what essentially is a quality of life buff more than a damage buff also isn't a problem, or at least, not a big problem anyhow.

Besides, we all know they won't do it anyway, I just don't think you should get indignant for me wanting them to.

Because Im annoyed with certain discussion on forum turn into something personal. I perfer discussion to stay on topic rather than side track because I play cor.

Its impossible to discuss anything about jobs on forum rationally if all the reply I receive is "but cor......" 24/7 whenever I said something.


Are you implying im rude on the forum? Because I believe if Im ever rude, its usually because other people resort to emotional argument or aim toward people with their personal argument.

This is my first post and how is this rude in any way?


I just talk about my opinion on dw3 and the fact that Im against drastic change in ffxi then you all went angry mode because Im shitting on rdms cheerios.

You said:


and


Frankly I think sometimes you type your responses so fervently that you forget what you even said. You're the only one being emotional, and you're the only one resulting to ad-hominem style tactics.

I think my previous comment does a fine job of showing that you do, in fact, hold a double standard, despite claiming not to.

But no, I don't think you're a Red Mage hater, (nor would I really care if you were) I just think you're not looking at this objectively.

You're calling everyone else emotional, and saying their views are just flat out wrong, or claim that comparing one job to another is "irrational".

Pick rate is a worse issue in competitive games, I dont think same strict standard applies to pve game.

And even then, if se aim to lower cor pick rate to say, something like 40%, then the entire game design would need to be changed. I personally dont think its worth the effort anyways.

Think about it, cor is already used in endgame since 75 back when cor sub whm in endgame. Even if se lowers cor dps the job would still have pretty high pick rate no matter what, while community stop playing cor like se intent it to be because theyd just /whm all the time,

Its similar situation as geo, geo also has close to 100% pick rate, but its at the point that its impossible to change this without complete revamp of buff system. May as well just let it stay as it is and occassionally add battles that doesnt favor geo. I prefer it this way.


I dont think cor issue is identical to rdm doing multiple roles with no penality. Cor balance issue is MUCH easier to control with just a leaden nerf, or add darkness resist to nms.


If I "get indignant", then its certainly because you are being personal and played "but cor....." card, its probably not because I think you ask too much buffs for rdm lol.

I said all these after you side track first so....my emotional post was just resonating your emotions. My first post was perfectly claim.

I didnt say your pov about dw3 is "flat out wrong", I said you are asking from rdm players pov but not game designers pov. Its as objective as it can be.

The "you are wrong" comment is about the fact that you misunderstand my pov about job balance and cor. I dont have double standard nor I favor cor. If you think I do then you are wrong about my pov.


If my posts are ad-hominem style tactics, what about yours when you said I have double standard and "seem ok with cor"?

I should have said this back on page 43 of the guide, here goes.
Let's take this to the Dev Tracker-Discussion thread.

Or it could be the fact that those with a bias are the least likely to notice it.


The ad-hominem is more about you accusing people of being emotional, and that 1) being granted because you said so, and 2) that making their argument invalid, rather than tackling the argument itself. In debate it is called an informal logical fallacy. Another informal logical fallacy being used (and please don't think that I think you are doing this intentionally, I know you have no ill-will, I'm just calling it like I see it) is called poisoning the well. Trying to undermine others opinions by saying they are coming from a position of emotion, when that has not been demonstrated.

I should be able to point out that some jobs are more equal than others without being called emotional. If anything, getting defensive when people make these kinds of comparisons will lead them to question your motives.

Im "biased" because I dont agree with your pov on job balance you mean?


I accuse you for being emotional, has thing to do with "because I said so". Its about your behaviour after I made my opinion on dw3. Immediately you replied with "it seems you are ok with cor".

If this isnt assumptions without proof, idk what is.

This is my first post:


Its nothing emotional, its just opinions about dw3. You either agree or you dont.

Then I proceed to explain why my opinion works that way: I dont feel rdm needs it. Again, you either agree or you dont. If you dont, then feel free to post why.

But instead you said this:

This post assumed I do not acknowledge cor is better job than most, which is false.

I do acknowlede cor is better job than most. Thats why I said you are wrong about my pov.

I think its strawman argumement because it has nothing to do with discussion.

And yet you continue to claim Im biased about cor, when I already told you I acknowledged cor is better job than most, wtf?


And why do you feel you need to question peoples motives when they talk about their opinion on jobs?

Im not "defensive" about people saying cor is better job than most, because its fact.

However Im annoyed that you talked about cor when I was talking about rdm, thats the difference.

If you question my motive, then I can make my stance clear one more time: I think cor is better job than most, I think all jobs dont need need drastic changes because the system is perfectly fine as it is. Im happy with small changes and content favoring one job over another occassionally. And thats good enough.


I dont have some evil motive nor I try to pretend cor is not a better job than most. that doesnt mean I need to pop on the forum demanding se to make drasic change to jobs. Im pretty sure 2 years later people wont give a damn about cor as soon as nm stop taking massive leaden dmg.

Anyways, im tired of this back and forth discussion that focus on my motives and pov on cor job instead of rdm. Can you send me pm instead? Thanks.

That would be a red-herring, I did not construct any straw men here. Besides as I pointed out earlier, comparisons in context of job balance are not red herrings to begin with. I don't like having to repeat myself over something that ought to be obvious.

The fact that RDM would still be weaker than COR (and not just COR for that matter) objectively even if it did have DW3 is the point here, and I didn't think I had to specifically spell that out. Maybe if you expect others to read so far into your point of view, you should make at least a cursory attempt to understand theirs.

You don't think RDM should have DW3, either because you think it would be unbalanced (which it would still be weaker than COR, objectively) or, it's for other reasons.

If it's the latter, I'm not even sure if we disagree on that, nor do we even disagree that RDM doesn't 'need' it, not by any means... but it would make the job more convenient to play, and wouldn't really endanger the balance of the game either.

If you think it would unbalance the game in any significant way, that's where our real disagreement is. And much of that is, and must be, due to how it would or would not cause the job to stack up to other jobs.

What I'm really not understanding is why you've chosen this as your proverbial hill to die on. It's not that important.


Because that's called a comparison, not an emotional argument. Frankly I'm not sure why you're even trying to claim this is some sort of simpering sobbing crybaby "you've offended me" kind of argument when I was just stating facts.

The reason COR was mentioned to begin with was because of the unfounded claim that it would unbalance the game. Any change will inherently change the balance of the game, if the balance of the game is being defined as the status-quo.

And also, I'm fine with taking it to personal messages, maybe we can get through to one another.

The statement "you seem ok with cor" its not fact.

I said I acknowledged cor is better job than most in multiple posts. And yet you continue to accuse me for being biased. I think any normal human being would be annoyed lol. Im not some kind of saint.

Why dont you drop this topic already?



From designers pov, I think it will be hard to control if job roles get way too blurred.

No, I dont think it will be OP in a sense that pt would start shouting "rdm x4 can I have it". However I think the pt composition of certain content will change slightly. I also think the optimal playstyle of rdm would also change.

Have you ever wonder why blu in 14 is not a "raid job", and blu in 11 has spell cool down and limited spell slots?

In general a "generalist" job in mmo doesnt do everything at max potential.

So lets see....people ask better dd gear on rdm, they ask temper 2 on pt member, they ask native dw3, they ask.....

People on mnk dnc drg forum didnt ask this much, just saying. All these jobs are worse than rdm pre adjustment.


And here is the thing when it comes to job balance discussion: I dont agree with "X job is so good, lets make Y job as good as X".

"Geo is must have in pt so lets ask se to give temper 2 targetable to pt member so rdm is wanted as much as geo!"

That doesnt fix balance problem, it creates more problem as temper 2 become required buff in a high end pt.

Cor job is so good, so lets give rdm more things!

Lets give it dw3! Does rdm get more invite than cor now? No? Lets give it curaga III? More invite now? No? Lets give it elemental seal! More invite now? No? Temper 2 for pt member and accession gain spell! Not enough? More and more!

I dont see how is this a good way to fix jobs lol. It just creates more holes in a system that already works.

I think others know why COR was mentioned. It wasn't just me saying it because it was you, I was explaining an objective difference, You seemed to have taken it personally rather than just admitting I had a point. When you did so, that's when I said you were being biased.


There's nothing wrong with a change that would cause compositions to change slightly, and optimal play style of Red Mage changing is also not a bad thing. I don't think I'm the only person that disagrees with you on this.

Funny that you were the person saying that *I* was employing straw man tactics, then you say something like this? Am I supposed to even take this seriously?

If you think I take it personally when you dont meant to, then it has something to do with your choice of words.




I wasnt implying you said all of these, just the direction of this entire thread. There are so many "wants" and very few talk about how the game would be like if all their "wants" are granted. Jobs like geo and cor are brought up repeatly and used to justify "I want this..." no matter how crazy the ideas are.

Ok then, back when changing ammo types consumed your TP, would you have been of the opinion that changing it to not consume your TP would be unjustified?

Thats a poor comparsion, lol. Lose tp or not, it doesnt fundementally change pt composition nor optimal playstyle of a job, nor design direction of a job.

Even "do you agree with SE adding trust/homepoint to XI" is a better question to compare to since it changes the fundemental of ffxi.

You still havent answer my question about mmo job roles.

Doesn't change optimal play? Did you think I wasn't going to notice that? Do you think RDM having dual wield would "change the design direction of the job?". They went through the trouble of making Temper II apply to both hands, when they made Enspell 2's not apply to both hands... So it's clear that they weren't thinking RDMs would not be using DW. On that matter would it really even change party composition? Not really, RDM/NIN could already melee, it just allows the RDM to have a different subjob utility kit.

And frankly I can answer that question if you deem it really important, but you can't possibly expect me to respond to everything you have said.

Personally I don't think the roles in FFXI are that fragile to begin with. Is SAM invalid because WAR and DRK do similar things? Is THF irrelevant because DNC exists?

I think your opinion on the matter needs to be acknowledged as no more valid than anyone else's opinion.



Now that you mention it, you're right, I hadn't considered how that affected job balance, tactics, and job direction. Much more valid question to ask.

Yes but it has nothing to do with the big picture nor design direction. You are just arguing semantics here.


Yup.



Yup.


But rdm/nin cant sleepga, nor curega, nor cast na spells, nor stun. If you want to do any of these things you cant melee as effectively.

Its choices and sacrifices. And it forces rdm to pick one job role in a pt and focus on that. If you try to sleepga/curega/cast na/stun or whatever on rdm, you will need to sacrifice dps because you are forced to single wield. You can still do dps, you are just not going to do max dps.

Thats balance for a generalist/jack of all trade jobs in mmo.

What makes you think THAT is so unacceptable that needs adjustment? Its very common in mmo that generalist job dont get to be best at everything nor change role in an instant with no penality at all.


I never say my opinion is holy light of everything, you are reading something I didnt write. But I do backup my arguments with reasons. And I did mention that my pov is designers pov while yours is rdm players pov.

If Im designer, I will not create a generalist job that can change role in an instant without penality in a mmo, it makes content design easier to manage this way. Thats all there is.

If you still disagree even after all the reasoning, just move on. But you just feel like making random poke here and there because I dont agree with your opinion on dw3.


No it doesnt, but the nature of the change is pretty fundemental, just like giving a generalist job ability to do max dps with any sj while also have the freedom to be a healer/CCer/stunner whenever they like.

Oh yeah! Just like they did on BLU.

Wait a minute! NO!... NO! You almost had me!
(White wind, Sudden Lunge, Winds of Promyvion, etc)


Even after I explained how they specifically made Temper II, a RDM only spell apply to both hands, while making Enspell II, another RDM only line of spells main hand only? Yeah, you seem quite reasonable, what was I thinking?

Feel free to have your opinion, but remember it is nothing more than that.


Are you even listening to yourself at this point?


While we are at it, stop pretending to be the dev-whisperer... do you have any idea how insanely arrogant that crap makes you seem?

Like you just *KNOW* what they were going for and everyone else needs to get on your level? Don't make me bring up COR again! I'LL DO IT SONNY!

Seriously not wasting any more of my time attempting to get through to you.

I feel like Im repeating myself like a broke cloak at this point....

Blu has spell cool down limitaion, rdm doesnt.

How is this arrogant? You think too much if you read it that way lol. In a job adjustment discussion, if the point is to convince dev make decision this way. Then of course the pov has to be made from their pov.

"I want X" kind of request is typically ignored by developer, its fact.

And somehow Im arrogant because I point out this fact.....ok.

It's aoe convert, nothing more to discuss.

Do you even play BLU? >.> Or are you referring to chainspell stun, which is used on ONE NM that people don't even melee in the first place. COME ON MAN.

Just an FYI in case you don't play BLU, sudden lunge has 1/4 the base recast of Stun.

Just be honest and say you're using this as an excuse to get to 6k posts. Or at least be merciful and lie saying that.

No, im referring to the fact that blu has set spell system, which act as limitation for generalist job......rdm doesnt.

What are you talking about with sudden lunge? Im talking about the fact that generalist jobs in mmo often has some penality if they change role in an instant

Yes I play blu......=.=

Yeah well RDM still wouldn't be able to sub WHM and BLM simultaneously, what the *** are you on about?

Like yeah, it would let RDM do more, but you're acting as if it would just unlock every door and let them do everything at once, it just opens some more options, which is why everyone else has been saying it's not that big of a deal really.

But they can sub whm or blm and do 6k dps simultaneously!

There you go! Finally we agree on something! And Im against it, move on if you disagree with my opinion and stop arguing, go to bed.

Now we're telling each other to go to bed are we? What are you five?

BLU can do AoE Debuff removal, AoE Sleeps, stuns, and 6k DPS at the same time, and has been able to for years.

So I'm still waiting to hear your point.

Also can we get an Ironometer for someone saying they disagree about the "Jack of all Trades" job having options? My sides...

If you set them.



I already made my point pages ago, and I dont really care if you disagree. But you keep making random comment about myself here and there, thats why Im replying to all these none sense.

Why do you feel like posting irrelevant comment like "do you play blu" "you are arrogant if you speak your opinion from dev pov?" Completely irrelevant to the discussion and its damn close to personal attack imo. You should have send a pm instead.

Im telling you to go to bed because I find our convo complete waste of time and I want to end it. But you keep replying(and take a jab in every post) anyways.

That's the thing, If something sounds stupid when someone quotes it back to you, then it was stupid when you said it.

I'm done mincing words with you, You are arguing just to argue and feel right. Nobody cares, you think you are right and people disagree with you, big deal. You're the one that needs to move on, it was a hypothetical situation, and I've never seen someone get THIS bent out of shape over a hypothetical.

In fact, I'd be willing to bet that were it anyone other than me, you would have gone to sleep or just lost interest hours ago.

You behave just as rudely as anyone else, then clutch at your pearls when people aren't perfectly pleasant in return.