Building TP: Double Attack, Store TP, Regain, Hast

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フォーラム » FFXI » Jobs » Samurai » Building TP: Double Attack, Store TP, Regain, Hast
Building TP: Double Attack, Store TP, Regain, Hast
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By IBHalliwell 2016-11-15 13:24:37  
Hey! :)

This thread is about the practical side of building TP. When I started out reading out SAM, the threads and calculators talked about store TP. Yet, I quickly came to realize through more reading a play many factors affect how quickly we build TP. Some of these are:

  1. Double Attack

  2. Store TP

  3. Regain

  4. Haste (gear, spell, Geo)



What other factors can you name / think of besides the above????


I'm wondering how to build a TP set working all these things together from a practical perspective. YES, I read and read more than once: Bushido - The Way of The Samurai (A Guide) V. 2.0 But just telling me some specific items - while nice - isn't the help I'd like given the wide choice and new choices coming from SE!!

I'm trying to understand the concepts and DETAILS, so I can make good decisions on selecting similar but different items. I suspect OTHERS would also like to be able to understand more so they too can pick and choose their gear intelligently.

I've been reading various forums on the net and from what I can tell both "double attack" and "store TP" build TP. In one thread (I can't find it now to quote and reference it), the author said "double attack" is greater than "store TP" and went on to explain why in his opinion.



An important aspect everyone has to deal with are the augments - sets or individual items. For example: What if you're given the option between STP +6 (new option) and Double Atk +10 (existing) (all else being equal)? OR Dbl Atk and Haste verses STP .... I'm sure I'm not the only one who gets these choices presented to him / her during the augmenting process.



All the calculators I'm find for SAM and other melee jobs only input STP information. Yet, if DA, STP, Haste, etc all work together, it would be nice to have a better idea of:

  1. How they mix together

  2. How to compute your hits to make 1000 TP



I suspect the calculators don't include DA, as the % or + number on gear, traits, or merits influences how often the weapon double attacks (since it is on a random basis). Yet, is there a way?

I'm asking as my gear includes Haste, Regain, STP and DA, and when augmenting being able to understand the concepts would make the job easier for me (and I'd think others).

I know some people show their gear in their messages, but I don't know how so I can't do it ...


What I can do is: I'm a 119SAM/WAR with STP merited at 5. JP is at 607 My gear totals:

Store TP: 51
Double Attack: 23
Haste: 29

My weapon is: Amanomurakumo - 119AG (437 delay)
My bow is: Yoichinoyumi - 119 (no AG) (524 delay and I use various arrows but around 90-95 delay)

My accuracy per checkparam is 1112 for my SAM and 1210 for my DRG.

When you look at one of the Store TP Calculators:

http://www.heckdesigns.com/demos/ffxi-calculators/stp.php

I'm doing 21.2% TP per hit (or I guess 212 TP per hit, which works out to 5 hits per WS). YET, from experience I'm able to WS every 4 hits or so, thus just looking at STP is looking at the picture with blinders on your face.

GEO and spell haste can really change these numbers quickly, too!


When I've asked various people I'm told everything from I have all I need to just stop playing as my gear is worthless. (I have a (yeah - one) Valorous set, which I thought was good gear - isn't it??)

Anyway, how does STP, DA, Haste, and other things work together **AND** how does one compute "Hits to 1000" given these variables?

Just saying it all depends upon store TP both OVER SIMPLIFIES it and misleads you, IMHO. Yet, this complex issue is beyond me to figure out by myself, hence this posting ....


NOTE: I'm just being honest and am not looking for answers like "play BLU," as these issues are true for that job or any melee job. I'm posting here, as SAM is a DD mega star IMHO. (I might repost this question in DRG or a post directing Dragoons to this thread. While DRG is a pet job, for me, it was my first real front line melee job.)

Thank you,

I.B. Halliwell on Ragnarok (formerly of Caitsith).

P.S. I'm also a DRG master with relic 119AG, BLM master. I'm looking for end-game events / LS (including more T3, T3 Helm, T4, etc fights, but not exclusively those fights) and yes, Ultimate weapons in time. If you'd like an eager player you is not afraid of hard work, please, consider me.

Thanks!
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 Asura.Patriclis
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user: Patriclis
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By Asura.Patriclis 2016-11-15 14:51:50  
First thing to do is sort out your "hit" build. In your case you have a 5 hit build. However, you also need to factor in how much TP return you get from your weaponskill. i.e if you get 200TP return on a weaponskill, and 212 TP per hit, then you will get 1048TP in 4 hits after a successful weaponskill. If you only get 100 TP return on a weaponskill than you would need 5 hits afterwards, and would end up at 1160TP after 5 hits.

You want to aim to be as close to 1000, without being under in x number of hits after a weaponskill. Being a little over 1000 is fine, but going too far over just results in wasted time.

Next you want to try to cap your haste. Haste reduces your delay, WITHOUT reducing TP gain.

(note that anything with -Weapon delay, dual wield, or martial arts will lower delay, but unlike haste WILL lower TP gain equally)

Haste has different caps in different slots:
You can have up to 25.6% gear haste.
You can have up to 43.75% magic haste.
You can have up to 25% Job ability haste.

The total cap on delay reduction is 80%
The following link will teach you more.
https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Attack_Speed

As a SAM you can get the 25.6% haste in gear.
You can also get 10% job ability haste with hasso.
Magic haste can be gotten through haste spells, geo haste, brd marches. You don't have options for this as SAM so just hope whatever party you're in can supply some magic haste for you.


Finally multi-hit (or as you put it, double attack). I call it multi-hit because there is triple attack, and quadruple attack as well that you can have access to as a SAM.

Once you've capped your gear haste at 25.6% and have enough store TP to have a proper x-hit build... you want to get as much multi-hit as you can. Multi-hit does exactly what it sounds like.. lets you attack again. These extra attacks give you the same TP you would normally get in a melee hit. The benefit of this is that if you only need 4 hits to get to 100% TP... and you double attack twice, then it's only taken you 2 attack rounds, to accomplish what would have otherwise taken you 4 rounds... thus cutting your TP building time in half.

However as powerful as multi-hit is, it has one big downfall: it's random. When you increase your haste or your store TP, those are always in effect. If you have +30 store TP, then that means, on every melee hit, without exception, you will get 30 more TP. Meanwhile, if you have 98% double attack, that means you have a 98% chance to attack twice on any given attack round. keep in mind that does NOT mean you WILL attack twice 98/100 times. It means that every attack round has a 98% of attacking twice. Which also means, you have a 2% chance of NOT attacking twice. See where I'm going with this? If the numbers aren't in your favor... you could pile on the double attack, and still never actually double attack.

Thus we focus on the stats that are always in effect (store TP, Haste, Accuracy), before focusing on stats that have a -chance- to give us more TP (multi-hit).

Finally, I should make a point that accuracy is most important. If you miss, you don't get TP. Always make sure you have at -least- 95% accuracy against the mob you're fighting. That is paramount.

As for regain... it's meh. If you have a proper hit build, then it's unreliable, unless the regain is coming in HUGE amounts.

PS: I'm not very good at explaining things so sorry if this is all just a pile of nonsense. But I tried XD
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By Sensational 2016-11-15 17:00:11  
As SAM and most non-dual wield jobs, I've always played by this order, but I've always been accuracy paranoid:

1. Accuracy - Set your gear/food choices for the minimum accuracy needed to maintain 95% hit accuracy (two-handed weapon cap). Gearswaps are typically setup in this manner also. Use Scoreboard to parse acc and adjust on the fly as needed. Also, don't forget to adjust your WS Acc sets and remember WS's get +100 acc on the first hit.

Exception: If in your Max Acc Set, you are still floored at 20% hit rate, then you are better off skipping priority #1 and using a full haste/DA/Attack set, because your accuracy gear is pointless. Between 21% - 94% hit rate, there is a trade off at some point for you to decide.

2. Haste - Attempt to reach 80% Haste Cap. Within the Haste Section, I generally follow this order:

Magic Haste > Job Ability Haste > Gear Haste (see caps in Patriclis's Post above)

No this doesn't mean I sub /DNC for 5% JA haste, but it means Magic & JA Haste generally come from an outside source, meaning I don't have to sacrifice any gear to reach haste cap. For example, if there are 2 BLU, DNC, and Me running a 5 min Ambuscade fight, I know my Haste will be 43.7% Magic + 10% Hasso + 10% Haste Samba and therefore, I only need 17% gear haste to fully cap. So I can use more Attack/DA/Store TP gear in certain slots. But good-luck finding a DNC.

Other Haste Notes: Our Empy Legs make Hasso +13% JA Haste and the +3 doesn't count as gear haste. Using /DRK subjob is actually looking pretty useful with the recent Smite changes and Last Resort JA Haste.

3. Store TP - Attempt to obtain a 4-Hit Build (WS + 3 Swings). Any Store TP in-excess of what is required to maintain a 4-hit is probably going to be wasted (there is a small WS damage bonus). There is a formula for Regain = some amount of Store TP, but it's variable depending on your Attack Speed.

Use a TP calc or just go wack a few mobs to see what your return is. Merits, Gifts, Grip, Bow, Empy Body, JSE Cape, and Empy Legs are our primary sources. Reaching a 4-hit will improve your TP gain significantly. For example, ignoring damage, a 4-Hit w/ 0%DA is equal to a 5-Hit w/ 33%DA - in a perfect probability world they would WS at the same time. Lastly, don't forget to factor in your Store-TP in your WS set, as it will likely differ from your TP set.

Other Store TP Notes: Don't forget about having COR Samurai's Roll, but also remember this is not a fixed amount.

4. Quad/Triple/Double Attack - As much as possible without impacting the priorities listed above.

Easy enough - Get more! Generally this is the preferred augment in our TP set, but it usually comes with a cost. For example, the recent Ambush Helm, has triple attack & store tp which is rare for SAM, but the gear haste on the ambush gear is rather low, so you need to decide which is more valuable to you. Solution - replace Windbuffet w/ Ioskeha Belt.

Exception to the rule: Mythic AM3 on the Koga. There are other topics explaining this, but basically the Occ. Attack 2/3 procs after your job trait DA, and therefore, diminishing the value of the AM3. Mythic owners will generally have more Store TP or other pieces that replace the double attack augment when AM3 is active. QA and TA do not impact AM3 as they are the same # of attacks.

5. Attack/Regain - As much as possible without impacting the priorities listed above.

Final notes: After using a WS/JA, there is a global cool down. So spam your abilities together to improve your DPS.

As for the augment process, your gear needs to be taken as a whole - no one piece is going to be the best. Use the SAM Dps spread sheet to setup your gear then quickly check your new augment to determine if it improves or hurts your setup. You will soon learn which augment is better or what augment you need to complete your set. Goodluck!

General rules of thumb:
WS Gear: STR, WSD, Attack/ACC
TP Gear: DEX, DA, Attack/ACC (Store TP is desired when you need to reach 4-hit or mythic AM3)

Or do what I do, just see what Llewelyn and Ejiin say is the best and attempt to get that.
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By IBHalliwell 2016-11-16 02:10:10  
Hello Patriclis on Asura,

Thank you for your very useful reply! :)

> Finally multi-hit (or as you put it, double attack). I call it
> multi-hit because there is triple attack, and quadruple attack as
> well that you can have access to as a SAM.

I like the name and will try to use it in the future.

2 question: (1) Is there a multi-hit cap? (2) How does one combine DA, TA, QA percentage to come up with a total number or can one?

> As a SAM you can get the 25.6% haste in gear.

So, I'm at 29% and thus capped on my gear haste, right?

> Finally, I should make a point that accuracy is most important. If
> you miss, you don't get TP. Always make sure you have at -least-
> 95% accuracy against the mob you're fighting. That is paramount.

As I mentioned earlier, right now, my accuracy per checkparam is 1112 for my SAM and 1210 for my DRG. How are those numbers?

I'm thinking their OK. Why? In Ambuscade scoreboard shows my accuracy in the 93 - 100% range per battle for DRG. As for SAM, I did the Unity NM Grand Grenade (level 128) and time and time again scoreboard showed my accuracy in the 93 - 100% range (mostly 97 to 100%).


Question: Can you give me an idea what I should do to lower my 5 hit to 4 and then to 3?


> As for regain... it's meh. If you have a proper hit build, then
> it's unreliable, unless the regain is coming in HUGE amounts.

Yeah and the 3 to 8 (3 with 1 gear item and 8 with 2 gear items) is not a lot. PERSONALLY, I like to have the regain gear on between fights, on the way to a fight, etc., to help insure 3K TP at the start of the next fight. Good idea????


> PS: I'm not very good at explaining things so sorry if this is all
> just a pile of nonsense. But I tried XD

Well, I don't know enough to say it is nonsense, but you make sense to me and helped me. This is why I have the above follow up questions / comments (looking for feedback). Your reply really was useful to me and I look forward to your next one. :)))))

Thank you again, Patriclis,

I.B. Halliwell on Ragnarok (formerly of Caitsith).
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By IBHalliwell 2016-11-16 02:16:55  
Hey again everyone,

New additional question on this topic:

When computing my STP, can I count my weapon's AM3 of STP 10?

I think I'm saying the above correctly. My relic weapon has afterglow and thus is equal to ilevel 121 and has an aftermath that lasts for up to 3 minutes (at 3K TP).

Thanks!
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By Sensational 2016-11-16 15:46:49  
Answers:

1. Quad/Triple/Double Attack - The game does not combine these. They are independent chances, that process in order from Quad -> Triple -> Double and to my knowledge the cap is 100% for each. Meaning if you had 100% Quad attack, every attack round would be 4 swings (if this was possible, Store TP would be irrelevant, because you would WS and on the next attack round be at 1000 TP). Also, its important to note, you can only have 1 Q/T/D attack proc per attack round. So, if Quad triggers, then triple or double will not process, which also means Quad can be taken at face value, however, Triple and Double need to be discounted (see below).

Using the order above, you can calculate your "effective" hits per round using basic math or using the general rule of thumb 1 QA = 1.5 TA = 3 DA or the inverse 1 DA = 1/2 TA = 1/3 QA. This rule becomes distorted as you get more QA/TA.

Assume the following gear & JA: 4% QA + 10% TA + 10% DA + 5% from Sub /War:
Formula: 1 + (QA%*3) + [(1-QA%)*TA%*2] + {[1-(1-QA%)*TA%]*DA%*1}

Using the above you should get:
Rule of Thumb = 1.47 Avg. Attacks per round
Discount Formula = 1.44 Avg. Attacks per round

2. You need 26% in haste gear to cap. So yes, you are capped.

3. Yes, aim for 95% accuracy. Off the top of my head after food:
Level 121 - approx. 1100 acc
Level 128 - approx. 1200 acc
Level 135 - approx. 1300 acc

Don't hold me to these, but I believe those accuracy levels will cap you.

4. You cannot obtain 3-Hit Build. Without seeing your exact gear, the big items you need for 4-Hit (WS + 3 Attacks) are:

Cibitshavore, Bloodrain Strap, Kasuga Haidate +1, Kasuga Domaru +1, Rajas & Petrov Rings, and Takaha Mantle

I defer to the SAM guide or going out in the field to see how much more you need. Just watch your TP and count your hits - its pretty easy. Add Store TP until you hit 1000.

5. Yes, regain is good for an idle set, when you are not engaged.

6. Yes, the +10 Store TP can be counted from the Amano Aftermath. Just remember to periodically use Kaiten to maintain the effect.
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By IBHalliwell 2016-11-24 06:06:52  
Hello again and thanks for your great reply,

> Without seeing your exact gear

Is there a way I can post my gear here? I've seen others post an image of their setup, but have yet to figure out how to do it. What I can do, though, for now is:

Food for STP:
I've been cooking and eating: Nero di Seppia (STP 6)

Basic gear:

Main Weapon: Amanomurakumo - 119 AG (STP 10)
Sub Weapon: Nepenthe grip (STP 5)
Range: Yoichinoyumi - 119 AG
Ammo: Yoichi's arrow
Ear: Neritic earring (STP 4)
Ear: Brutal earring (STP 1)
Neck: Asperity necklace (STP 3)
Head: Valorous mask
Body: Valorous mail (STP 3)
Hands: Valorous mitts
Ring: Petrov ring (STP 5)
Ring: Chirich ring (STP 5)
Back: Smertrios's mantle (STP 10)
Waist: Ioskeha belt
Legs: Valorous hose
Feet: Valorous greaves (STP 8 (5+3))

It is my plan to use Fern stones to augment the Valorous gear with STP. I have to get around to it. (Been trying to earn gil to pay myself back AG both Amanomurakumo and Yoichinoyumi.

Weapon Skill gear:
Ring: Karieyh Ring

Range gear:
Neck: Ocachi Gorget (STP 5)

Meditate gear:
Head: Wakido Kabuto +1
Hands: Sakonji kote + 1

Cool thing about meditate is with both fully merited and JP maxed at 20, I'm getting every 2.5 minutes:
  1. 300 TP/tick

  2. About 12 ticks for 3,600 TP

  3. I've been able to do 3 to 4 WS right after a meditate, and thus some SC, too.



I didn't include non-STP augments.

My accuracy ranges from an idle of 1120 to 1250 in battle without food. Of course with food depends upon the food.

Again thank you so very much for your help.

I.B. Halliwell on Ragnarok (formerly of Caitsith)

EDIT/P.S.

(1) I thought about changing to the Ocachi Gorget for its +2 STP over the Asperity necklace, but feel the other attributes of the Asperity necklace out weigh the +2 STP.

(2) On the grip/strap, I've been thinking about the +1 version for the added +2 STP and its other attributes. 7 million gil is a bit for it, but . . . might be worth it.

(3) I'm all in favor of hard work, quests, etc., but the Abyssea stuff concerns me. Maybe this concern (fear?) is unfounded, but such is life, right?

I wasn't actively playing during its initial release and don't understand its proc methods OR getting some of the items. From what I can tell it is really HARD to reforge Abyssea gear.

Side note: My WHM is fully Abyssea +2 gear equipped (a friend took me around to get all the seals, quests, etc). When I looked at reforging it to 119, some of the items looked to be RA/EX and I didn't think I could do the fights. What can you tell me?

(Wish it was as easy as AF and relic gear to reforge ... or is it?)

Finally: My hope is to get the guide / your recommended gear OR something similar / "better" because of augments - such as the Valorous with STP +6 or above.