Random Arguments & Strawmen #15

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フォーラム » Everything Else » Politics and Religion » Random Arguments & Strawmen #15
Random Arguments & Strawmen #15
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By fonewear 2016-12-02 08:28:20  
First mistake man ever did was give woman his rib it was all downhill after that...
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By fonewear 2016-12-02 08:28:48  
So from the very beginning of time women were "needy and emotional wrecks".
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By Shiva.Nikolce 2016-12-02 08:39:41  
Cerberus.Pleebo said: »
Oh ***you were serious?

Can't you just picture her harping on people at the VA!? holy ***... that voice...All she has to say is she will personally inspect the lowest performing hospital for a week...BOOM 500% efficiency! a whole new level of efficiency and service across the board...

they would cure the patients before they made an appointment!
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By fonewear 2016-12-02 08:42:11  
A government run thing to help veterans...what could possibly go wrong !
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By fonewear 2016-12-02 08:44:10  
Oh this:

http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/02/politics/va-inspector-general-report/

Hundreds of thousands of veterans listed in the Department of Veterans Affairs enrollment system died before their applications for care were processed, according to a report issued Wednesday.
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By Lakshmi.Zerowone 2016-12-02 08:54:23  
fonewear said: »
Oh this:

http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/02/politics/va-inspector-general-report/

Hundreds of thousands of veterans listed in the Department of Veterans Affairs enrollment system died before their applications for care were processed, according to a report issued Wednesday.

You could say "problem solved".
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By fonewear 2016-12-02 08:56:15  
Lakshmi.Zerowone said: »
fonewear said: »
Oh this:

http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/02/politics/va-inspector-general-report/

Hundreds of thousands of veterans listed in the Department of Veterans Affairs enrollment system died before their applications for care were processed, according to a report issued Wednesday.

You could say "problem solved".

With that attitude you could be a government worker !
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 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2016-12-02 09:01:17  
eliroo said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
eliroo said: »
Ok then:

2014 Numbers

U.S State poverty rate:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_poverty_rate

WA is 19
TX is 38

A ~4% difference between the two in terms of poverty rate.
Good start.

Is that the only qualifier I listed, or the only one you wish to examine?

eliroo said: »
Next up Income inequality
Ok then.

What about employment rate?

According to this Texas has a 4.7% Unemployment rate vs. Washington being at 5.4%

How about labor participation rate?

Another source shows that labor participation rate in Texas was 64.9%, while Washington is at 63.5%, both states being above national average, but Texas is better at it.

Want to go at it with GDP?

Texas GDP: $1.639 trillion.
Washington GDP: $449 billion.

We can do this all day,

We really can. Are you really going to just compare GDP and not GDP per capita? Because Washington has TX beat there:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_GDP_per_capita
When you have a smaller denominator, of course it's going to look bigger.

You need to look at total production, not what is estimated to be production per person (because not everyone produces at the same rate or value).

eliroo said: »
How about Average income: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_income

We could really keep at this all day.
To counter:

COLI is much better in Texas as it is in Washington.

Basically, it means that while yes, Washington's citizens on average earn $8,443 per year more than Texans, the purchasing power of those Texan wages are much better than Washington.

What that means is, assuming that everything else is created equal, $100,000 of goods is considered median, Texas can get $110,619.47 worth of stuff with that median $100,000 while Washington only get $95,057.03 worth of stuff.

Take into consideration the average wages you provided for us:

Texas ($49,392) vs. Washington ($57,835)

That means that Texans can get about 36% more stuff on average per year than Washington does. (Texas Wage to COLI ratio is 2.24 vs Washington Wage to COLI ratio 1.64)

So, your idea is debunked.
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By fonewear 2016-12-02 09:11:22  
This is perfect for us: Apparently there is going to be a black santa at the mall of America...racial harmony achieved !

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/12/02/the-mall-of-americas-first-black-santa-santa-comes-in-many-different-colors/?utm_term=.c40f9199d0e4
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By eliroo 2016-12-02 09:11:45  
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
When you have a smaller denominator, of course it's going to look bigger.

You need to look at total production, not what is estimated to be production per person (because not everyone produces at the same rate or value).


You have to consider population though to get a better number though. GDP Per capita is definitely going to be a better comparison than just GDP in the same way that your Cost of living example proves that TX has more buying power therefore 49k goes a longer way.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2016-12-02 09:23:10  
eliroo said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
When you have a smaller denominator, of course it's going to look bigger.

You need to look at total production, not what is estimated to be production per person (because not everyone produces at the same rate or value).


You have to consider population though to get a better number though. GDP Per capita is definitely going to be a better comparison than just GDP in the same way that your Cost of living example proves that TX has more buying power therefore 49k goes a longer way.
I had a great response, but Rooks failed me.

It doesn't matter if you look at it as GDP per capita, if the purchasing power is what is considered "real wages."

This is pretty much our old argument of "nominal vs. real" we had a couple of weeks ago.

I basically proved that, economically speaking, Texas is in a better situation than Washington due to higher productivity, better real wages, more production, more labor participation, less unemployment, and overall stability.

Shall we also consider efficiency of government too? You aren't going to like that answer, I promise you that.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2016-12-02 09:29:54  
In Non-Trump analysis:

Potential DNC Chair Keith Ellison Supports Groups That Want To Destroy America With Sharia

Quote:
With some exceptions—including the Anti-Defamation League and some liberal groups such as J Street and Americans for Peace Now—the organized Jewish community’s outcry against the bid by Minnesota’s Rep. Keith Ellison’s to head the Democratic National Committee (DNC) has been pretty much universal.

The reasoning for such unanimous revulsion can be attributed to a range of unpalatable behaviors. Whether it is Ellison’s openly anti-Semitic associations, his misleading criticism of Israel as a human rights violator, or his dogged attempt to block critical funding for Israel’s vital Iron Dome missile defense system, he has been a consistent and an abrasive detractor of the U.S.-Israel relationship. This alone—given that the cornerstone of American support for Israel is bipartisan cooperation, and that Republicans and Democrats are seeking pathways to healing around scant opportunities for consensus—should be enough of a reason to disqualify Ellison from the DNC post.

Keith Ellison Loves Groups that Undermine America

Vastly outweighing Ellison’s anti-Israel credentials, however, are his anti-American credentials. Being a convert to Islam does not make Ellison anti-American. But the Minnesota lawmaker, as a visible and a vocal supporter of the Muslim Brotherhood, is supporting an anti-American agenda. The Muslim Brotherhood—in its own words, as evidenced in court documents—calls for “destroying Western civilization from within” and replacing that civilization with a supremacist, sharia law-based autocracy. Even Saudi Arabia has outlawed the Muslim Brotherhood, making it a state-designated terrorist organization.

Ellison also supports the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), the Islamic Society of North America, and the Muslim Students’ Association, all of whom—based on well-established public record—are linked to the Muslim Brotherhood.

Having a cheerleader for the Muslim Brotherhood in the top position of the Democratic Party’s center of operations is an ideological anathema. Security concerns aside, Americans are not far from waking up to the obtusely ironic fact that the same party which has invested so much political capital defending LGBTQ activists and women would allow for the ascension of a leader who supports an ideology that so repressively denigrates the human rights of gays and women.

Doing Radical Islam’s Bidding

Proactively embalming political Islamists like the Muslim Brotherhood under First Amendment protections has been a full-time pursuit for Ellison. The mission of CAIR, for which Ellison is an unabashed supporter, is to function as a self-appointed monitor of “blasphemy.” Groups like CAIR serve solely as the gatekeepers of determining what words, ideas, and activities can be classified as being offensive to Islam.

Within that very spirit, President Barack Obama ordered the FBI to purge its training manuals of any references to Islam, and to cease any surveillance or profiling activities that are based on associations with Islam. The word “jihadist” was changed to “extremist.” People with sterling records as counter-terrorism experts, such as the Investigative Project on Terrorism’s Steven Emerson, were immediately banned from providing information to the CIA, FBI, and Department of Homeland Security. There have been nearly 30,000 acts of terror around the world since 9/11. This gross injustice—the whitewashing of radical Islam’s impact—should anger most Americans intensely.

The proof is in the pudding. During the Obama presidency, there were 159 fatalities attributable to Islamic terror. Of the 36 terrorist incidents those fatalities represent, there is strong evidence that eight might have been prevented with more aggressive monitoring. The core question is: What role did Ellison play in shaping policies that ultimately led to the unnecessary breach of American security by radical Islamists?

Judging from his track record, Ellison’s influence as DNC leader would facilitate the validation of a violent supremacist ideology that at its core is rabidly anti-American. How we got to this place is a question Americans need not grapple with any longer. Clearly, Ellison would not be the wisest choice to help lead the nation out of the feckless haze of ambiguity that has, in regards to the question of the legitimacy of radical Islam, been forcefully imposed against many objections.

Given the widely expressed sentiments about radical Islam during the 2016 presidential campaign, unless they are not concerned with sustaining their party Democrats may want to visibly jettison Ellison.
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By fonewear 2016-12-02 09:45:53  
Need more black mall santas...I'm going to write Obama to demand action.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2016-12-02 09:48:04  
fonewear said: »
Need more black mall santas...I'm going to write Obama to demand action.
Might as well make a petition.

You will get the same answer: Indifference of the country's requests.
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By fonewear 2016-12-02 09:49:20  
Obama is busy trying to find a house that is white and he doesn't have to pay for !
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By Lakshmi.Zerowone 2016-12-02 09:55:37  
fonewear said: »
Lakshmi.Zerowone said: »
fonewear said: »
Oh this:

http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/02/politics/va-inspector-general-report/

Hundreds of thousands of veterans listed in the Department of Veterans Affairs enrollment system died before their applications for care were processed, according to a report issued Wednesday.

You could say "problem solved".

With that attitude you could be a government worker !

Just so happens to be.
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By eliroo 2016-12-02 10:14:49  
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
I basically proved that, economically speaking, Texas is in a better situation than Washington due to higher productivity, better real wages, more production, more labor participation, less unemployment, and overall stability.

Forbes 2016 : http://www.forbes.com/sites/samanthasharf/2016/06/06/the-states-with-the-best-and-worst-economies/#5a3ec8f75b03

Seems to disagree with you.


The study used here : https://wallethub.com/edu/states-with-the-best-economies/21697/
 Bahamut.Ravael
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2016-12-02 10:20:52  
eliroo said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
I basically proved that, economically speaking, Texas is in a better situation than Washington due to higher productivity, better real wages, more production, more labor participation, less unemployment, and overall stability.

Forbes 2016 : http://www.forbes.com/sites/samanthasharf/2016/06/06/the-states-with-the-best-and-worst-economies/#5a3ec8f75b03

Seems to disagree with you.


The study used here : https://wallethub.com/edu/states-with-the-best-economies/21697/

Then let me shut you all down by noting that my state wins.
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By Garuda.Chanti 2016-12-02 10:31:39  
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Yatenkou said: »
Onto more important things, I've been hearing that electors are going to vote against trump, any reliable source of info on this?
Nothing really "reliable". Even the sauciest rumors say that they could get a max of 4-6 electors willing to vote against him, but nothing suggesting that they would vote for Clinton instead. Beyond that, one of the main groups trying to orchestrate this claims to have half a dozen voting against Hillary Clinton, too. I guess the goal would be to destroy faith in the electoral college and not necessarily get Clinton elected. There is no serious threat to Trump.
Dead on Ravael.

So far the only recent reliable faithless GOP elector report was one in TX who tried to get himself disqualified because he couldn't vote for Trump as he was "biblically unqualified". The state certified him anyway.

There are also articles on "Hamilton electors", so far 7, who will not vote for Trump.
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By Lakshmi.Zerowone 2016-12-02 10:33:49  
Damn Texas got smashed on by North Dakota in the GDP growth category.
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By Garuda.Chanti 2016-12-02 10:38:11  
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
In Non-Trump analysis:

Potential DNC Chair Keith Ellison Supports Groups That Want To Destroy America With Sharia
King, The Federalist is a great source for how the Republican right wing thinks. I go there occasionally myself for just that.

It is not a reliable source for news.
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By Zerowone 2016-12-02 10:39:16  
Let's talk about Trump's Carrier Victory Lap. 800 jobs will stay in Indiana, true...but 300 are executive jobs that were not going away---Carrier received a $7 million sweetheart tax break from Indiana and federal breaks as well. 1300 jobs are still going to Mexico.

This is the Trump Show-the great populist emerges from the clouds to save jobs; a PR campaign, what Trump does best. In reality Mike Pence will be running the country while Trump goes around the America having symbolic rallies, (as much was promised to John Kasich when he was offered the Vice Presidency).

By the way, Carrier is a subsidiary of a much larger defense industry contractor (United Technologies) that is no doubt looking to score some defense contracts down the road. Trump said he would tax Carrier if they left, instead he gave them the store.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2016-12-02 10:39:27  
eliroo said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
I basically proved that, economically speaking, Texas is in a better situation than Washington due to higher productivity, better real wages, more production, more labor participation, less unemployment, and overall stability.

Forbes 2016 : http://www.forbes.com/sites/samanthasharf/2016/06/06/the-states-with-the-best-and-worst-economies/#5a3ec8f75b03

Seems to disagree with you.


The study used here : https://wallethub.com/edu/states-with-the-best-economies/21697/
I question their methodology. Mainly, several of their "key factors" in determining the score, such as:

Percentage of Fast-Growing Firms: Full Weight (~8.00 Points) (Only a part of the picture, should also include percentage of firms going out of business)
Business-Startup Activity: Full Weight (~8.00 Points) (same as above)
Quality of State Legal System: Full Weight (~8.00 Points) (HIGHLY SUBJECTIVE ANALYSIS)
Median Annual Household Income: Full Weight (~3.64 Points) (Nominal analysis, doesn't take real wages into consideration)
State-Government Surplus/Deficit per Capita: Full Weight (~3.64 Points) (putting weight into how large a government is isn't showing how healthy a private economy is)
Unfunded Liability (Public Pension Plans) per Capita: Full Weight (~3.64 Points) (Considering how pensions are going out of style and self-funded plans are more prevalent, this shows practically nothing other than how ancient the economic structure is)
Percentage of Population Lacking Health Insurance: Full Weight (~3.64 Points) (unnecessary. Much better indicator would be how healthy the population is, not if they have health insurance or not)
Foreclosure Rate: Full Weight (~3.64 Points) (unnecessary, as it only shows how many people make bad decisions in life. Most foreclosures now are not from lack of jobs, but because people buy houses they cannot reasonably afford. Proof: Housing Crisis of 2008)
Immigration of U.S. Knowledge Workers (Average Educational Attainment of Recent Migrants from Abroad): Full Weight (~3.64 Points)/Migration of U.S. Knowledge Workers (Average Educational Attainment of Recent Migrants from Other U.S. States): Full Weight (~3.64 Points) (they are double weighting almost the same thing. Just combine the two and weight it evenly against everything else!)
Percentage of Jobs in High-Tech Industries: Full Weight (~2.86 Points) (Man, let's hope that high-tech industries will stay the same for the rest of humanity and not be phased out like manufacturing and other services are generally done)
Percentage of Jobs Held by Scientists and Engineers: Full Weight (~2.86 Points) (Yeah, let's skew the study towards coastal cities, why don't you?)
Industry R&D Investment Amount per Total Civilian Employed Population: Full Weight (~2.86 Points)/Nonindustry R&D Investment Amount as a Percentage of GDP): Full Weight (~2.86 Points) (they are double weighting the same category again! This study is overly biased towards one specific group of industries and states!)

Practically the entire methodology is biased towards one group or another. Not exactly showing anything relevant or even real. You can't make a claim that "XX state is better than YY state" with so many biases towards YY-type states!
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2016-12-02 10:40:32  
Garuda.Chanti said: »
King, The Federalist is a great source for how the Republican right wing thinks. I go there occasionally myself for just that.

It is not a reliable source for news.
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
In Non-Trump analysis:
Try again.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2016-12-02 10:41:01  
Lakshmi.Zerowone said: »
Damn Texas got smashed on by North Dakota in the GDP growth category.
You can thank fracking for that.
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By Ramyrez 2016-12-02 10:42:26  
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Lakshmi.Zerowone said: »
Damn Texas got smashed on by North Dakota in the GDP growth category.
You can thank fracking for that.

I was gonna say. That's a boom industry at best.

Then again, maybe when we're paying people to do the millions of dollars in repairs and capping and recapping and clean up, it will be long-term!
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By fonewear 2016-12-02 10:44:27  
Zerowone said: »
Let's talk about Trump's Carrier Victory Lap. 800 jobs will stay in Indiana, true...but 300 are executive jobs that were not going away---Carrier received a $7 million sweetheart tax break from Indiana and federal breaks as well. 1300 jobs are still going to Mexico.

This is the Trump Show-the great populist emerges from the clouds to save jobs; a PR campaign, what Trump does best. In reality Mike Pence will be running the country while Trump goes around the America having symbolic rallies, (as much was promised to John Kasich when he was offered the Vice Presidency).

By the way, Carrier is a subsidiary of a much larger defense industry contractor (United Technologies) that is no doubt looking to score some defense contracts down the road. Trump said he would tax Carrier if they left, instead he gave them the store.

What do you got against air conditioners they keep us cool in the summer !
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2016-12-02 10:48:22  
Garuda.Chanti said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
In Non-Trump analysis:

Potential DNC Chair Keith Ellison Supports Groups That Want To Destroy America With Sharia
King, The Federalist is a great source for how the Republican right wing thinks. I go there occasionally myself for just that.

It is not a reliable source for news.

I wasn't expecting the person who posts stuff from HuffPo, Vox, etc. to be the one to complain first.
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By eliroo 2016-12-02 10:48:33  
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
I question their methodology. Mainly, several of their "key factors" in determining the score, such as:


Maybe, but as much as I respect your economic opinion above mine, I respect that of 13 Economic professors above yours.
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By Shiva.Nikolce 2016-12-02 10:50:11  
fonewear said: »
What do you got against air conditioners they keep us cool in the summer !

/shrug

I don't know what his problem is.... Ima ride that tiger!

/buys some UTX stock

WOOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOOO!
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