Random Politics & Religion #23 (Fake News)

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Random Politics & Religion #23 (Fake News)
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 Bahamut.Ravael
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2017-05-09 23:49:30  
Viciouss said: »
What is there to be nervous about? Trump fires the guy investigating him the same day the news breaks that said guy issued subpoenas to Flynn associates with ties to Russia. Republicans in Congress are shaking their heads at the stupidity coming out of the WH while Dems are laughing and calling for a special prosecute which is obviously going to be appointed. Meanwhile Trump has no more cards to play as the Russian scandal explodes. There is nothing he can say or do, his credibility, which was already low when it came to Russia, is gone. His defenders have nothing.

The Russian scandal can only explode if there is actually something there. (And I don't mean about Flynn, because nobody who voted for Trump gives a crap what happens to Flynn.) Everything you're saying is based on the assumption that Trump did something wrong. If the investigation yields nothing, none of these "bad optics" will amount to anything and the Democrats will have to fold their biggest hand.

Viciouss said: »
And Comey? He will be testifying to Congress again.

Like you said. What is there to be nervous about?
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By fonewear 2017-05-10 07:07:29  
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Viciouss said: »
Sounds more like laughter. Yep, definitely laughing.

Nervous laughter is still laughter, I guess.


Hillary would know something about that !
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By fonewear 2017-05-10 07:22:08  
I'm about ready to start getting all my news from infowars at least Alex Jones is entertaining. So what if he is mentally deranged so is Wolf Blizter !
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By fonewear 2017-05-10 08:43:47  
Viciouss said: »
What is there to be nervous about? Trump fires the guy investigating him the same day the news breaks that said guy issued subpoenas to Flynn associates with ties to Russia. Republicans in Congress are shaking their heads at the stupidity coming out of the WH while Dems are laughing and calling for a special prosecute which is obviously going to be appointed. Meanwhile Trump has no more cards to play as the Russian scandal explodes. There is nothing he can say or do, his credibility, which was already low when it came to Russia, is gone. His defenders have nothing.

And Comey? He will be testifying to Congress again.

It's going to be ok Vic here:
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 Bahamut.Ravael
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2017-05-10 09:14:32  
In other news, Stephen Colbert told his audience that Trump fired Comey, and they all... cheered loudly! Not getting the response he wanted, he jokingly referred to them as Trump supporters and explained how this was a bad thing and was done at the recommendation of, *gasp*, Jeff Sessions. "Boooooooooo!"

Pavlov rings his bell and the dogs react accordingly.
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By fonewear 2017-05-10 09:16:30  
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
In other news, Stephen Colbert told his audience that Trump fired Comey, and they all... cheered loudly! Not getting the response he wanted, he jokingly referred to them as Trump supporters and explained how this was a bad thing and was done at the recommendation of, *gasp*, Jeff Sessions. "Boooooooooo!"

Pavlov rings his bell and the dogs react accordingly.

What's the difference between Colbert an a douchebag ?

...

The douchebag is actually useful !
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By fonewear 2017-05-10 09:19:24  
I heard about the Daily Show reunion and thought...so this is why no one watches late night TV. Bunch of *** sitting around congratulating themselves for being so damn funny !
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 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2017-05-10 09:20:29  
In "Another example of the leftist's denial of history and reality"

No, We Wouldn’t Be Better Off If The American Revolution Never Happened

To the deniers out there, sources and analysis are bad, because reasons.

Quote:
We have come to quite a pass in American society when major publications are publishing straight-faced criticisms of the very existence of the United States. But in this week’s New Yorker article by Adam Gopnik (“We Could Have Been Canada”), he questions the goodness of the American Revolution two and a half centuries ago. Seeing Trump at the head of our government has driven Leftists so mad, they now question everything—including America itself. The result is a bad argument against the ideas that led to the greatest country on Earth.

Remember? Monarchy Is Actually Bad

Of all the left-leaning bloviating floating around, the defense of monarchy is perhaps the most ridiculous. What makes Gopnik’s argument even more ridiculous is that if America were ruled, even technically, by the British queen, most of the opposition to monarchy would come from the Left. Even in Britain, where the monarchy is beloved, the head of the Labour Party, Jeremy Corbyn, has a long history of republicanism.

In America, intersectional-socialist-identity politics thinkpieces against a crown write themselves. “Why should America, an increasingly diverse nation, be ruled by a family of old, rich, white, people?” “Shouldn’t we stop throwing away money on an idle, rich monarch while the war on poverty is not yet won?”

For a group of people who cry nepotism at every political utterance of Ivanka Trump, who resent every trip President Donald Trump takes to his Florida palace, and who cry out in rage that the person with the most popular votes is not our current chief executive, this defense of unelected spendthrift monarchy rings false.

America Isn’t A Dystopia

Gopnik’s more specific arguments are no less absurd. Consider this from the opening paragraph:

Quote:
No revolution, and slavery might have ended, as it did elsewhere in the British Empire, more peacefully and sooner. No “peculiar institution,” no hideous Civil War and appalling aftermath. Instead, an orderly development of the interior—less violent, and less inclined to celebrate the desperado over the peaceful peasant. We could have ended with a social-democratic commonwealth that stretched from north to south, a near-continent-wide Canada.

Diversions into alternate history are always utopic or dystopic. No one likes to imagine that if one major event had gone differently, the world would be … pretty much the same. Here, the author imagines that a utopia might have been achieved, if only American colonists had meekly submitted to rule by a king and Parliament across the sea. If only our Founding Fathers had been a bit more cowardly, we could be governed today by a crowned head whose tolerance of natural rights is more in line with that of the New Yorker’s tremulous readership.

It’s Not As Simple As It Seems

But even if Washington and Franklin had been as pusillanimous as Gopnik’s fantasy, the beautiful vision he proposes is unlikely to have come about. To begin with, the British government not only permitted slavery in the colonies, it actively encouraged it.

Once our Revolution began, the British encouraged slaves to desert their masters, but only as a means to weaken the enemy. The convenient conversion to abolitionism did not carry over to Britain’s West Indian plantations, where slaves continued to labor in conditions equally brutal—if not more so—to those in the worst malaria swamps of South Carolina. But those slave owners were paying taxes to the Crown and were loyal to the mother country; their crimes against humanity were allowed to continue for two more generations.

That slavery would have been peacefully abolished within an undivided Empire is absurd. The opening of the Southern interior to cotton cultivation would have enhanced the profits of a slave economy in Gopnik’s alternate America just as it did in the real one. Many in the Founding generation thought slavery was on the decline, and few imagined it would endure as long as it did after their deaths. But the invention of the cotton gin and the cultivation of rich interior farmland breathed life into the dying institution, and further entrenched it in the hearts and minds of slave owners.

Things Could Have Been Worse

Gopnik pooh-poohs the “Enlightenment argle-bargle” at the heart of the Revolution, but the leading men of that day believed those principles and were not blind to the contradictions of proclaiming liberty in a slaveholding republic. By the time of the Civil War, however, their places in society had been taken by men who had grown rich on the fruits of unfree labor, men like John C. Calhoun and Robert Barnwell Rhett, who portrayed black slavery as part of a just system.

To them, slavery was a positive good that had to exist. Between people who believed that and people who believed in abolition and racial equality, it is hard to imagine any possible solution short of Civil War. When Trump suggested last week that the Civil War might have been avoided had Andrew Jackson lived, all the bien-pensant minds on the Left laughed at his naiveté; when Gopnik suggests the British crown might have done the same thing, they all nod their heads and mutter praise. But it is equally preposterous.

Being part of a unified British Empire would not have changed the American South’s economic facts or racial ideology. On the other hand, it might have changed the way the Empire dealt with the cause of abolition. In 1833, Parliament passed the Slavery Abolition Act. The Act provided for compensated, gradual emancipation of 800,000 slaves in the Caribbean and South Africa (India was excluded from the Act’s provisions).

The effort cost the British government £20 million at a time when the total government spending was just £50 million. If the United States were still ruled by the Crown, there would have been four times that number of enslaved people. That would require £60 million more to be paid out. The answer would not have been just to pay it, which even the most powerful nation on Earth could not have afforded; it would have been uncompensated emancipation.

We Just Aren’t Canada

Historically, the mere rumor of abolition led reactionaries in the South to secede; in Gopnik’s imperialist fantasy, the result would have been no different. He must know that, even if he does not admit it. Consider this passage: “It was only in recent decades that schools cautiously began to relay the truth of the eighteen-seventies—of gradual and shameful Northern acquiescence in the terrorist imposition of apartheid on a post-slavery population.”

American students should, indeed, be taught more about the reaction that followed Reconstruction. But it is not crazy to think that the exact same thing would have happened in a British colony. Need proof? The very word Gopnik uses, “apartheid”, came from a post-slavery system of white supremacy that originated in South Africa, which was ruled by Britain until 1910, and remained nominally under the Crown (as Canada still is,) until 1961.

Shorn of its southern neighbors, Canada was spared the bloody conflict that accompanied slavery’s end in America. But that is not because they were more enlightened than we: it is because they had almost no slaves. Had we remained united, our civil war would have been an Empire-wide conflagration, and Canadian blood would have been shed along with American and British blood. Separation spared Canada all of that and left them in peace. The American Revolution created our nation, but it also created Canada.

What About The Whigs?

Although he takes shots at them, Gopnik’s real complaint is not with our exact form of government, nor with the history of slavery. His real argument is with the Enlightenment. The article, a polemic disguised as a book review, pulls into the discussion two forthcoming volumes, Justin du Rivage’s “Revolution Against Empire,” and Holger Hoock’s “Scars of Independence,” both of which examine the events and ideas that led to the nation’s founding. He gives Hoock short shrift generally (“like the fat boy in ‘Pickwick,’ he wants to make your flesh creep”,) but uses du Rivage’s arguments to get to a larger point about Whiggism and the theories that animated the men who led the Revolution.

Du Rivage divides British-American opinion into two camps: radical Whigs and authoritarian reformers” “The radical Whigs were for democratization, the authoritarian reformers firmly against it. The radical Whigs were for responsible authority, the authoritarian reformers for firm authority. And so on.”

Du Rivage believes, as most of us do, that the Revolution was fought for a set of ideas. Gopnik prefers the warmed-over Howard Zinn view of history, updated with 21st century wokeness. “Du Rivage’s and Hoock’s accounts,” he writes, “are mostly about white guys quarrelling with other white guys, and then about white guys being unimaginably cruel to one another, stopping only to rape their enemy’s wives and daughters.” Indeed, why discuss ideas when there is the much simpler expedient of calling everyone racist?

More errors follow from this, mostly with the aim of slandering things the author does not like about America. He calls the Confederacy “libertarian,” which besides being an anachronism, is just untrue: the slave labor system of the CSA more closely resembles feudalism than an ideology of self-ownership and self-determination. Even the original radical Whig, John Wilkes, is singled out, not so much for his own ideas—which included most of the things that would end up in America’s Bill of Rights—but for the fact that someone named after him became an assassin. “Nor is it entirely accidental that he would give his name to the charismatic actor who killed Lincoln.” Let us just say what should go without saying: sharing a name does not require sharing culpability.

Trump Derangement Syndrome Gone Wild

The reason for these increasingly strained connections is, of course, the desire to connect the American Revolution to Trump. “A government based on enthusiasm, rather than on executive expertise, needs many things to be enthusiastic about. Whig radicalism produces charismatic politics—popular politics in a positive sense, and then in a negative one, too.” Gopnik finds two things he dislikes, Trump and the Revolution, and ties them together, hoping each will sully the other.

Donald Trump can be called a lot of things, but a son of the Enlightenment is not one of them. In Gopnik’s imagining, Trump is the natural result of Enlightenment thinking and Whiggish politics; the opposite is embodied by Canada and, though he does not name her, by Hillary Clinton: “a largely faceless political class; a cautiously parliamentary tradition; a professionalized and noncharismatic military; a governing élite—an establishment” It’s all a neat little bundle, like 2004’s Jesusland map. A nice, tidy analysis, except that it doesn’t make a lick of sense.

The Enlightenment embodied the idea that universal reason should rule the world, that all humanity was endowed with natural rights, and that the preservation of liberty and equality was the highest goal of government. The reaction to that came a generation after the Revolution with the Romantic movement, which reasserted the importance of emotion, nostalgia, and individualism, and which eventually led to the rise of nationalism. Which of those sounds more like Trump?

Our Most Effective Assault On Trumpism

The most effective assault on Trumpism comes in pointing out its departure from the ideals that formed the basis of America. Americans have traditionally been resistant to nationalism because we are a nation founded on ideas, not blood and soil. Those ideas are Enlightenment ideas. Gopnik turns this critique on its head when he calls Trump the natural result of American Whiggism, and he does his side no favors in the process.

The rot of Trump Derangement System runs deep. One would have to be truly deluded to believe that it does the American Enlightenment harm to tie its principles to Trump, or to any other popular figure. The American Revolution is quite popular in America! Linking it to Trump will only burnish the president’s credentials with the average American. Indeed, the idea that Trump is the natural outcome of the Founding Fathers’ Revolution is something that, heretofore, would only have been uttered by the most fanatical of Trump supporters. Here, we have it from the mouth of his detractors. The biggest favor the Left could do themselves is to forget Gopnik’s article ever existed.
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 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2017-05-10 09:21:42  
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
In other news, Stephen Colbert told his audience that Trump fired Comey, and they all... cheered loudly!
Proof positive that Colbert's fans have nothing going on between the ears.
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 Shiva.Nikolce
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By Shiva.Nikolce 2017-05-10 09:23:32  
Caitsith.Shiroi said: »
I don't understand why you guys feel the need to constantly bring up Obama and Clinton when they aren't even mentioned, you are being actively worse than people who blamed Bush for everything.

I made a comment about Michelle Obama not being able to make a school lunch that kids would eat after trying for eight years and I got....

Sylph.Cherche said: »
Except not really? The issue was the entire thing was screwed by poor follow through on the government's part. Which Michelle only had influence over one part of.

Or are we going to pretend Obama had some control over the United States budget and intentionally screwed his wife's plan over?

Also, school defunding thanks to Dubyas NCLB dumbassery wasn't helping anything.

I was all Dubyas fault... >.>

I guess I should have known that it was the sinister hands of george bush that were holding Mrs. Obama's hands behind her back and causing her inability to make a sandwich.... silly me.

we're now in YEAR SEVENTEEN of "well we tried our best but we were confounded by that dastardly evil super genius george bush"

yeah. no. I can see why you wouldn't understand why we still bag on hillary and obama what with all the stunning displays of culpability and responsibility taking by obama and company the entire eight years of his bad joke of a presidency....

oh? you disagree? you think obama did a great job? well... take a good hard look at the Cheetos with the world's worst Hairpiece sitting in his old desk and yeah maybe you should reconsider your argument that the obamas did all that they could....

I think they could of tried a little bit harder to work on something other than their golf swings and vacation itineraries.




But on the other hand they did get to hand out with Jiro and eat his sushi which I'm pretty jelly over.
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By fonewear 2017-05-10 09:25:21  
In other news I heard they are taking down monuments because it might be offensive.

NEW ORLEANS (AP) — Supporters of Confederate-era monuments slated for removal in New Orleans launched a new court fight Monday to save one of them.

A statue of Confederate Gen. P.G.T. Beauregard on horseback is at the main entrance to New Orleans City Park. Monument supporters say their research shows the statue is not owned by the city, but by the City Park Improvement Association. That agency is part of the state Department of Culture, Recreation and Tourism, overseen by Lt. Gov. Billy Nungesser.

Monument supporter Richard Marksbury said Monday that he's filed a lawsuit in state court to prevent the statue's removal. In a related development, Nungesser released a letter to the president of the improvement association, Steven Pettus, saying Pettus should object to the removal of the statue.

At Mayor Mitch Landrieu's behest, the City Council voted in 2015 to take down four monuments, an action prompted by the slaying of black parishioners by an avowed racist at a church in Charleston, South Carolina, earlier that year. The shooter had posed online with the Confederate battle flag.

One of the statues, the Liberty Place monument, which was removed late last month, honored a rebellion by whites who battled a biracial Reconstruction-era government in New Orleans. Statues of Beauregard, Gen. Robert E. Lee and Confederate President Jefferson Davis are to be removed soon.

Supporters and opponents have taken part in sometimes tense demonstrations at the monument sites in anticipation of the city taking them down, and their removal was delayed by a long legal battle in federal court. Ultimately, the city won the right to remove the monuments, but Marksbury said more research on the ownership of the Beauregard statue led to Monday's lawsuit.

The judge in that suit refused Monday to issue an immediate, temporary order blocking removal of the Beauregard statue. Judge Kern Reese scheduled a Wednesday morning hearing in the case.

City Park officials issued a statement Monday saying they were reviewing the issues in the lawsuit. Landrieu's office issued a statement saying the issues have already been litigated and that monument supporters were "continuing to fight a lost cause."

City officials have refused to give advance public notice of the removal work because of threats of violence against contractors and workers involved in the effort. Because of the threats, the Liberty Place monument was removed in the dead of night by workers wearing masks and body armor.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/lawsuit-filed-preserve-confederate-statue-orleans-173103941.html
 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2017-05-10 09:28:02  
fonewear said: »
yahoo
What have I told you about Yahoo News?

Bad fone, bad!

*smacks fone's nose with a newspaper*
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By fonewear 2017-05-10 09:28:11  
Shiva.Nikolce said: »
Caitsith.Shiroi said: »
I don't understand why you guys feel the need to constantly bring up Obama and Clinton when they aren't even mentioned, you are being actively worse than people who blamed Bush for everything.

I made a comment about Michelle Obama not being able to make a school lunch that kids would eat after trying for eight years and I got....

Sylph.Cherche said: »
Except not really? The issue was the entire thing was screwed by poor follow through on the government's part. Which Michelle only had influence over one part of.

Or are we going to pretend Obama had some control over the United States budget and intentionally screwed his wife's plan over?

Also, school defunding thanks to Dubyas NCLB dumbassery wasn't helping anything.

I was all Dubyas fault... >.>

I guess I should have known that it was the sinister hands of george bush that were holding Mrs. Obama's hands behind her back and causing her inability to make a sandwich.... silly me.

we're now in YEAR SEVENTEEN of "well we tried our best but we were confounded by that dastardly evil super genius george bush"

yeah. no. I can see why you wouldn't understand why we still bag on hillary and obama what with all the stunning displays of culpability and responsibility taking by obama and company the entire eight years of his bad joke of a presidency....

oh? you disagree? you think obama did a great job? well... take a good hard look at the Cheetos with the world's worst Hairpiece sitting in his old desk and yeah maybe you should reconsider your argument that the obamas did all that they could....

I think they could of tried a little bit harder to work on something other than their golf swings and vacation itineraries.




But on the other hand they did get to hand out with Jiro and eat his sushi which I'm pretty jelly over.

Only one way to respond to this:
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By fonewear 2017-05-10 09:29:38  
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
fonewear said: »
yahoo
What have I told you about Yahoo News?

Bad fone, bad!

*smacks fone's nose with a newspaper*

You lie Yahoo is the worldwide leader in celebrity gossip and getting hacked !
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2017-05-10 09:34:49  
fonewear said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
fonewear said: »
yahoo
What have I told you about Yahoo News?

Bad fone, bad!

*smacks fone's nose with a newspaper*

You lie Yahoo is the worldwide leader in celebrity gossip and getting hacked !
....I don't think Sony will ever let anyone secede that title away from them.
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By fonewear 2017-05-10 09:36:38  
This Comey thing is As Shakespeare would say Much Ado about Nothing.
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 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2017-05-10 09:48:53  






But yeah, it's "totally about Comey finding something on Trump" or whatever conspiracy theory some people are thinking.
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 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2017-05-10 09:53:17  
Also, hypocrisy at it's finest.

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 Bahamut.Ravael
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2017-05-10 09:54:51  
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
But yeah, it's "totally about Comey finding something on Trump" or whatever conspiracy theory some people are thinking.

Remember, Comey was single-handedly investigating Trump, by himself, with no help or paper trail. When he was fired, he got hit by the neuralyzer and lost all of that vital information. That's why Trump did it!
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By eliroo 2017-05-10 09:56:25  
Yea whenever we want to fire an employee for reasons we cannot disclose we usually come up with a BS laundry list of crap they did in the past to justify it.
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By Anna Ruthven 2017-05-10 09:56:32  
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Also, hypocrisy at it's finest.

He probably should have resigned of his own accord, firing him wasn't really the same thing as him resigning. It's very different, I assure you.
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By Viciouss 2017-05-10 09:57:34  
Its supposed to be all about his handling of the Clinton probe, its the first reason listed, yet Kellyanne Conway goes on CNN and denies thats the reason, and can't answer as to why the firing happened now, instead of, you know, when he took office. I would think they would have learned not to let Conway speak.

We know its all about the Russian scandal anyways.
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By eliroo 2017-05-10 09:57:40  
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
But yeah, it's "totally about Comey finding something on Trump" or whatever conspiracy theory some people are thinking.

Remember, Comey was single-handedly investigating Trump, by himself, with no help or paper trail. When he was fired, he got hit by the neuralyzer and lost all of that vital information. That's why Trump did it!


Also good point, maybe Trump will appointed a non-biased FBI director and the Senate will accept him. That non-biased FBI director will ensure that the investigation is continued.
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-05-10 10:00:09  
I don't blame Comey, he was stuck in a very bad situation. The Obama administration didn't want the FBI *** up their attempt to elect her Majesty, so Comey had to act a certain way. If he went forward with investigating her Majesty he risked being summarily removed by Obama and / or facing political backlash from her Majesty and her deep connections. If he kowtowed and do what the Democrats wanted then he would be breaking the law and risk harsh repercussions should The Donald of won. He took a middle road approach of fulfilling his duties sufficiently not to be guilty of obstruction of justice, but also not to directly attack her Majesty or be a primary cause for the Democrats failure to elect her.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2017-05-10 10:01:28  
Anna Ruthven said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Also, hypocrisy at it's finest.

He probably should have resigned of his own accord, firing him wasn't really the same thing as him resigning. It's very different, I assure you.
He wasn't going to resign. That's the problem.

Same thing with Yates. She wasn't going to resign, she wanted to be fired when she very publicly stated that she was countermanding her bosses order to follow an executive order that at the time was not even signed.

Both of them now look like political martyrs and give credence towards "the resistance."
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2017-05-10 10:02:41  
eliroo said: »
Yea whenever we want to fire an employee for reasons we cannot disclose we usually come up with a BS laundry list of crap they did in the past to justify it.
In case you missed it, they did give very valid reasons to do it....
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2017-05-10 10:04:15  
Viciouss said: »
Its supposed to be all about his handling of the Clinton probe, its the first reason listed, yet Kellyanne Conway goes on CNN and denies thats the reason, and can't answer as to why the firing happened now, instead of, you know, when he took office. I would think they would have learned not to let Conway speak.

We know its all about the Russian scandal anyways.
Yeah, his firing of Comey should be grounds for impeachment!
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By eliroo 2017-05-10 10:04:44  
I've been on the fence about Comey, and I truly don't understand all of the facets of his situation, as do any of us. Regardless, to view this firing without some spectrum of cynicism is completely misguided.

No one is saying to condemn the Trump administration for this firing but rather they want to ensure that the investigation on Trump continues without a bias, therefore maybe a "special prosecutor" is required.

I don't get the blind faith towards the Trump administration, he is in office and you need to hold him accountable as the president of the US not defend his every action as if he is running for office. This type of faith is how dictatorships are formed and it is lacking intelligence.
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By eliroo 2017-05-10 10:05:23  
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
eliroo said: »
Yea whenever we want to fire an employee for reasons we cannot disclose we usually come up with a BS laundry list of crap they did in the past to justify it.
In case you missed it, they did give very valid reasons to do it....

You clearly have never worked management.
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By Anna Ruthven 2017-05-10 10:07:10  
Asura.Saevel said: »
I don't blame Comey, he was stuck in a very bad situation
This is why I think he should've resigned. He was in a situation he couldn't really get out of and it kinda casted a negative light on the FBI. He also exaggerated and mishandled a few things but I have my doubts his announcement right before the election had the impact people like to assume it did. If you sat and listened to all the BS against Hillary and we're still for her at that point, his little announcement wasn't going to sway your vote. >.>
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