Dev Tracker - Discussion

You've been using this (valid) point a lot of times Thorny, and like you many other people.

I don't think this really hits the bullsye of the issue here.
Master Trials (and many other contents you named before) were challenging at start, very challenging.
Did you hear the amount of whining/complaints people are voicing for Odyssey?

The answer is no.
Yes there were the usual average amount of complaints you see for pretty much anything, but here the situation is clearly different.
I don't think the "challenging" aspect is the main issue at all.

It's more about creating fake problems that partially go against the nature of the game to create a fictitious sense of challenge that's less of a challenge and more of a time constraint, or time gate.

I mean they could even create content where you can't use JAs/WS entirely, or content where you can't swap gear, or end game content where you're constantly at level 1.
Would it be "challenging"? Well, probably.
Would it be in line with the phylosophy of the game?
Probably not.

Odyssey is somewhere in between, on a thin line between what is in line with the game and what is not.
(imho)

The ideas are somewhat original, fresh and good.
The implementation and the way everything comes together at the end of the event (now that it's complete) is a pretty debateable thing that shows lack of clear game design vision on their end,
Again, just my humble opinion.

Because it's situational. This isn't the situation.

And it keeps you on the treadmill.

I'm not suggesting it's the pinnacle of content design, or supports everything that FFXI stands for. It's a crutch, without a doubt.

But, can you suggest any other way to create content that's fair but still challenging? Players made it clear we won't tolerate random one shots in the late 80-99 era(even now, quite a lot of complaining about double denouncement on Bumba and that's likely a bug).

Mechanics of the game have made it such that MP cannot run out. Time gates just push gear requirements through the roof because everyone has gearswap and spreadsheeted out max sets. Crazy amount of debuffs results in people complaining they can't actually play.

Almost anything they can assemble with the current system is going to be a joke to an average NA endgame linkshell(who all use react, gearswap, etc.. which is far too large a portion of the population). Do you know a way they could make things challenging without drastically increasing development budget or otherwise pissing players off?

That's the thing I want hard stuff but I don't want you making it hard by making limits like no subjob no job change make badish setups and hope you win and not waste segments. Don't limit how many kis I can stack for segments.

Maybe I could, but we'd go off topic.
I don't claim I'm a good game designer either, 'cause I'm not.

I'm just saying Odyssey could've been a much better content with the same ideas but better implementation and balance of its aspects.
The job swap and multiple runs idea is cool, but there's not enough "prize" for those who pull it of and most of all it clearly doesn't work properly when you have only 22 jobs and only 2 proper healers (one of which is greatly inferior to the other), only 2 proper tanks, only 3 proper support, 4 if we want to include SMN but SMN is somewhere in between, it does several things together in a very nice way (support, healing) but doesn't excel at any of that, or on a comparable level.

It's obviously quite hard to balance a game like FFXI (closer to a sandbox than a themepark), but that's exactly why the lock job idea was cool in general but not really good for FFXI. They should've tweaked this idea and make it more viable, for instance.
I feel things would've been better already without the super stupid lockout of subjobs, which really makes no sense in a game where Job/sj is one of the core elements of the base game design.
Not enough, but it would've been a step forward.


Likewise, things would've been much better if they thought something else for RP. Exchange RP? Buy Mog Amplifier with RP?

And likewise with the very steep requirements. Amount of segments needed, Moglophone not storing, just one moglophone very day, amount of Segments an average group gets for every run and also the non scaling HP for parties bigger than 6.

Last but not least amount of RP required for each upgraded piece. Or amount of RP u get for each kill, different point of view, same result.

There's a whole lot of shades of grey in between "requiring" 165 V15 kills and requiring 5.
Especially with the huge amount of nice items released all together. If there were only like ~15 total items, okay, but with this much, really?
This is not a good balancement of these aspects imho, not at all.

I'm sure eventually over time things will get much better, but they dared too much in an attempt to gain time (i.e. keep people busy) while they work on a new content that they will eventually provide to use sometimes in Q1 2022.

Its really not a flawed argument. Your examples arent the same.
If you're not good enough to farm R15, then you dont get R15 augs. However, not using Mog Amplifier isnt stopping you from getting R15 augs.
If you dont like Odyssey, dont do it. But you dont get to complain that you're missing out on Odyssey gear if you dont want to do Odyssey.
This JA/Spell one doesnt exactly make sense.

And yes...if you dont like FFXI, stop giving SE your money!


This isnt any much different than unlocking augments on REMA weapons as you have two routes to go through:
kill T3 NM in dynamis
Turn in 10000 JP at 700 JP per week.

Neither one has any advantage over the other, they give the exact same result, just one is doable in a few hours and one will take 15 weeks.

Whats stopping you? Theres nothing stopping you. Theres nothing preventing you from leaving the area, getting a new KI, and fighting the boss on the job you want.

This inclusion of Mog Amplifier has not impacted your ability to do what you were previously doing.

It's "stopping" you from being done faster?
Which for a content that requires >165 kills to be done with a set, is a pretty big thing.
The problem here is not the fact that SE puts something in game that can potentially be useful to make things faster but that will affect only 0.1% of the population.
The real issue is that >165 V15 kills is too big of a number.

Wanna bet if the number was like half of that, you would've got waaaaay less complaints about the fact that Mog Amplifier won't be useful for the majority of people?

To say it in other terms it's like there's something that's not right (amount of grind), SE releases something that can get that number finally right, but then only an infinitely small amount of players will get access to it.

Shouldn't be hard to understand why someone (basically everyone who won't be affected by the change, which sadly will be the great majority of people) will feel bad about it, no?

I guess it is hard to have a constructive conversation about “bad” design without making over-generalized statements or boil down to the conversation to a binary. Good points have been raised about the content being a time sink and evolving to be less pug-friendly. Conversely, it is very engaging for statics with multiple geared jobs focused on using game mechanics to engage with content. The augmenting system is exclusionary to differnt players with different goals: see Agwu vs Sakpata. Also, if you are less committed, the base sets are excellent and provide versatility to their respective jobs. There currently isn’t content that requires fully augmented gaol gear. Ideally, new content should be inclusive. This content isn’t fully inclusive or exclusive. It is challenging, but through slightly regressive means (locking sub jobs). They implemented a way to address the RP grind and segment amount, but time gained is mitigated through more restrictive means of burning more phones or taking more time to earn segments. Ultimately, it is constructive to offer a measured take. Criticism is perfectly reasonable, but the whining, especially from middle-aged adults, is embarrassing.

you can still do the same content you were previously doing at the same pace you were previously doing it.

now i know who the people i work with are that do half the work and demand the same raise as everyone else, ffxi players!

RDM alone uses 200+ pieces of gear reliably. Not situationally, reliably. RDM with any other high gear job will fill all your wardrobes alone.

Then they can adapt and use the Mog Amplifier or get left behind. They havent been slowed down.

There are a lot of addons to help with porter moogle, organizer etc, so its not too bad these days if you store most of your stuff. One of the biggest problem is there is no porter moogle in there, which seems like something they didn't think of or couldn't do.

So we're boiling it down to the same old argument of "Grow some pairs!", right? :D
Because people who offer different options that would've been much better balanced for everyone clearly are just pussies who need to grow a pair.


I think honestly Simon's idea would've been better for everyone.
A bonus even for average folks who just do single fights, and an even bigger bonus if you can fulfill the requisite of doing 3 fights in a row, offering further challenge (and giving a proper meaning to the 3x fight in a row mechanic, which barely had any to begin with, to support furthermore my point that they really lacked a clear game design vision when they put all the different odyssey elements together showing, if anything, a lot of confusion in their minds)

You have 3 healers; rdm, whm, sch. All 3 of them can heal fine for the most part in odyssey, albeit rdm more situational. Hell, ive honestly found SCH to be leagues above whm in odyssey due to embrava, storm II and better regens. Pld can also main heal a lot of it with a bard or rdm tossing refresh.

So you can eek out 3 runs with 3 healers setup. But that leaves a lot of jobs required to make the pld healer work.

I love RDM healing, I've mainhealed on RDM in multiple content over the years (no, I'm not particularly good at it, but that's beyond the point).

And no, RDM isn't a "proper healer".
A job with no natural AoE heals and no -na spells wouldn't really be called a "proper healer" in any MMO and I think it would be quite a stretch to be called such for the hard fights of Odyssey.

Of course RDM can perfectly heal the easier ones, but at that point what is the reality of things? That RDM is a "proper healer" or that a proper healer isn't necessary for those fights?
(hint: it's the latter)

Not trying to throw mud on RDM, I bloody love the job.

It functions well enough for 6 man content, especially paired with a pld. Addle and meva gear should make it so few enough debuffs stick to the party for excessive durations.

Its not the most optimal thing in the world, but it works.

All this time arguing about content you could have got your 100 wins on V15.

My dad works for SE I'll let them know that 165 kills on V15 is too much.

Ive yet to even talk about the amplifier idk if you cant read or dont care too. My issue is people being upset because 95% of the player base doesnt't let the way this content is setup.

its like that because every 1 hacks in this game between Automatic Lua's to 6 boxing that's what we deserved this is not square's fault but the playerbase.

If 95% don't like it. Don't. Do. It.

They'll be forced to change it.

I mean its sounding like people already passing on it so im sure SE will listen but only when JP complain about it. JP love endless fake hard content. I love a hard fight for sure i miss doing kings and ***at 75 cap but making it "fake" hard is lame.

Your analogy is bad. The reason people didn't whine about master trials is because the only reward was a glamor item, which the majority of the players couldn't care less about. Odyssey on the other hand has high end gear that only gets better when you complete the augment grind, often to the point it's best in slot. Of course people are more likely to to raise a fuss when they actually care about the rewards.

Which btw dont get me wrong if people dont like the content dont do it. Only reason im even do it is helping shell with v15 clear access then im out because of the stuff people been talking about.

This worked well for Chocobo Racing

Apples:Oranges

Side Content: Main Burn 3 years doing it content

It is a different type of content, yeah, but I can't think of a single time SE has ever done any major kind of overhaul to a piece of content just because people didn't like it (and that goes for both games, so I assume it's a policy problem).

The 19 changes to Dienamis-Divergence?

Hyperbolic, 7? Actual "adjustments" Individually, trying to improve metrics.

Or Mireu / DI points

Changing Omen from 6 member to 18 member?

Negating the "hard" afterglow steps in REMA?

I have few ideas. Maybe:

1.) Environmental effects like Diablos where the floor moves out from under you?
2.) Lamps in the 4 corners of your room that change color to indicate what damage-type to do?
3.) FF7-style augments where you enter a fight with a random buff/debuff (This exists for Nyzule, right? ...they could expand the mechanic to include locking an armor slot for the duration of a fight).