Dev Tracker - Discussion

The gil bonus from Segments runs really puzzled me.
After them taking years to finally acknowledge the issue of stagnation and inflation with gil-circulation (more gil was generated from NPC interaction than the gil that was spent, increasing the overall amount of gil in circulation and hence decreasing the worth of that gil) and doing several things to address it in the form of adding moneysinks and capping the ambu points gil conversion.

After all that work they start giving more gil back for free, from zero.
I mean, wtf?
I'm all for offering rewards to make an event interesting and sought after, go for it! But does it have to be GIL? Direct gil?
I could understand stuff that converts into gil from AH or Bazaar transaction (that doesn't increase the gil in circulation, but still increase the gil the player gets), but giving RAW GIL was really a stupid idea, if you ask me.


Then again I don't have a degree in economics so I'll leave the discussion on this specific topic to other people more competent than myself.

Without their tools it's hard to say, but they did make Gil earnings a component of Odyssey and I'm just suggesting making A more focused on it and C more focused on Segs as a way to differentiate them.

Yeah, it kinda made me scratch my head too. The market is all over the place.

i suppose you want neither hyper in- nor deflation. if gil value drops too fast ppl will stop spending gil cause they figure it's worth double as much if they hold on for another month. however, AH prices still went down despite odyssey gil.
makes you wonder if they aimed for stable gil prices and miscalculated how many ppl would participate in odyssey and flush gil back into the economy or if they wanted the gil price to go down.

You guys trying to figure out their moves in 4D space chess but square is just playing Hungry Hungry Hippos.

It's not that deep or confusing or complex.

It's possible the market deflation is an ongoing aftereffect of the dynamis medal dupes and bans from almost two years ago. Someone in my linkshell recently commented on that, and it's interesting to think about. How many mules with stacks and stacks of medals were never banned? It could very well be that the excessive supply of medals from back then is only now starting to dwindle to the point that gil transfer from player to player is normalizing to what it should have been all along.



Also this. Simply put, people are spending less because s-e shut off several means of resource generation that exceeded what the odyssey payouts are providing us today.

Won't disagree with that, but it's still something that shouldn't exist.
If you want to reward gil to players do it indirectly through stuff that can be "converted" into gil by selling it to the AH or Bazaar, not direct gil.

That's just my take on the topic of course.

PUGs don't, but I think individuals (at least those I play with) are definitely trying different things in both those areas, especially when new Ambuscades start.

I know folks who would gladly go in on a HTMB or Ambu run with an odd setup to try it out, then try something else if it fails. The cost to fail is minimal. I know almost no one that will go in on a Gaol boss and do anything other than the documented, working party setup and strategy.

Like Sechs said, it can be hard to find people to get v0 clears or RP bosses they don't need, because segments (and MPIIs, by association) are scarce. How much less likely are people to go in on a strat that may fail just to see if it works?

Everyone is different, just my observation. I'd personally like to try varying strats against some of the T3s and against Bumba, but it's easier to stick with doing the same thing every time so I don't blow segments on a failed run. I think this applies doubly to people who lack jobs in documented, working strats and just would rather merc or not mess with doing the run.

Then you address that cutting the price of the sinks? Or removing them entirely if they prove to be no longer necessary?

Adding a source of direct gil can never be a good thing in the long run, it's always a potential source for economic troubles, imho.



Honestly I'm with Eiryl on this. They did not make long time plans or decide "let's give gil to fight the gil sinks" or anything else.
They simply wanted to make the event more rewarding and sought after and decided to add gil without thinking too much about it.
Could be wrong, but this sounds like the simplest scenario and the one more in line with their behaviour.

Adding Gil Sources has to be regulated with ways that Gil is removed.

Some spells are purchased from an NPC, teleports, AH Fees, more.

Is there an alternative way to obtain https://www.bg-wiki.com/ffxi/Cyan_Coral or just the NPC for just over a million? It's used to upgrade AF, Brioso Whistle, Moonbeam Ring.

Yes, AF upgrades (indirectly used for Relic upgrades as well) were the first big gil-sink in a long, long time.
They had their purpose.
Could argue if they still have that role nowadays, that's up to debate I suppose...

But regardless, I was more concerned on stuff like the "free" gil you get from Odyssey, was totally unnecessary imho, and negative in the long run.

i think you can get them from gobby box.

there are a lot of gil sinks in FFXI now. the AF materials were and still are heavy hitters for the individual but there is also for example home point warps which is less taxing but hits everyone constantly (srsly, someone make a addon that keeps track of those little gil sinks) and the curio moogle which i bet a lot of ppl make heavy use of even tho they could get a slightly better price for most of his stuff on the AH just to save the detour.

It can be useful from a design stand point. You can pick and choose where gil comes in and where gil goes out.

The only reason it would be negative in the long run is if it causes inflation that goes unchecked.

There have been beastmen or simple quests/missions that dropped direct Gil going all the way back. Without stuff like that, there would have been basically no Gil in the economy at all. It had to come from somewhere to start with.

Over the years and with the inflation we've already had, much of those quest/mission Gil rewards are something of a slap in the face compared to 15/20 years ago.

SE can move goal posts to make it easier for new or returning players to obtain Gil through direct creation as long as there's a counter balance to keep the inflation rates in check.

Part of that counter balance includes the ban of various players for various reasons. But beyond that, there's already mentioned AH Fees, teleports, Mooogle, AF Upgrades, Brioso/Moonbeam crafts, etc.

Without tools to monitor internally all what's going on, we can only rely on something like ffxiah sales history or our own historical knowledge applied to see where things are going.

We know Sparks was a huge flood of Gil that's been capped.

This.

And the market has been weird since sparks. Several items have went down in price such as +2 necks. They're half what they were. Su5 weapons went down a bunch but have recently started climbing for select jobs. AG mats are still the same as they were. HMP are nearly half the price they were. Some cursed gear is less than half what it was.

Most of that is natural attrition. The idiots buy and then the price drops because there are no more idiots left to sell to.

It's not quite that simple but that's the idea. The ability to cross servers makes it weird though. At any moment a wild moron could appear and buy 200 of some item.

I just don't craft Su5 anymore, its literally not worth the headache.

A lot of price fluctuations are Supply and Demand driven. Ambu added a lot of supply, as an example. Careful conflating that matter with scoping out price characteristics of inflation or deflation.

Late to the odyssey discussion, but making amplifiers free, automatic, or refunded in some way when used below a certain tier(16?) would be a good step. When an amplifier adds 50% to the cost of run, and undergeared people are struggling to get segments to begin with, the idea of using amplifiers just to squeeze out a little RP from a V5-10 fight is just demoralizing.

On a similar vein, I have started to think an option to not spend a Moglophone II as a tradeoff for not earning RP could encourage "catching people up" without having to give up segments. Something I'm noticing is that startup groups who are just hitting Atonement 3 NMs just need more attempts to practice, and that means expending more segments with little to no reward at first. This is especially hard for those who are still maximizing segment runs and not quite there yet, or for groups of 4-5 who constantly need a pickup to add to their ranks.

SE has always adapted content as it ages to make it more approachable to a larger number of people. Whether thru simply being levels above what the content was designed for, or simple gear creep, or even changing the limitations/requirements. I do hope this stays 6-man content, but there are ways to encourage more cooperation among those experienced in the content, and those just starting up. Maybe just more freedom to help could show results.

Something like this frankly needs to be done. Particularly during periods of heavy progression like now with the release of v20s, where hardcore players dip lower on segments, it becomes more difficult to so much as help less-geared friends with their own progression roadblocks / gear unlocks due to segment constraints.

That, along with the difficulties in finding or creating statics for Odyssey, combines to make the content somewhat unapproachable and unfriendly to get into.

These discussions always spawn a completely unrelated question for me. What data and feedback sources is SE reading?

I feel like they make changes and say things like "xyz caused problems for players", for example with the latest revert to the changes they made for alliances earning cp/ep, but I've seen no talk of that. Unless I missed it, no one here was complaining and I don't think I saw anyone on the official forums complain about it either. Yet here we are discussing the Odyssey issues again (something that seems to come up somewhat often) and nothing has been done in a while. It feels like they reference feedback, but nothing they reference is anything I've seen posted anywhere and the things I see posted seem to go unaddressed for a long time.

Also, similarly unrelated to the Odyssey discussions, the patch notes mentioned something about a change to trading in your final mythic. Any idea what that is?

I suggested this several times. They need to make the Moglophone IIs operate the same as UNity ROE NMs, where if you don't have the ROE set, you can still; participate but you forgo any rewards. They could easily do something similar where you choose to turn back in your Moglophone IIs and still do the content, but forgo RP and don't use any Segments. You get credit for the clear but don't get any RP from the fights. So you can practice an unlimited amount of times and get all of the clears for no segments, and then use your segments towards rank up progression. No idea why they didn't do this process as it already exists for Unity NMs. It would instantly benefit everybody.

The reversion and reason threw me for a loop, too. I never even tested how impactful the change they made was. It likely only applied to Gates Zones, anyway.

It was entirely theatrics. The only surprising part was that they dropped it instead of doubling down.

This, but clears should also take segments. Have it only be free if you're helping someone out or purely practicing/experimenting.

"if you want to practice you can use Wildskeeper Reives"

I doubt implementation of this would be feasible now, but what was SE's reasoning for not making the cost of NMs scale with vengeance? I'm not saying v20's should cost 5k segments, more something like 1k for a v0, 1500 for v5, 2000 for v10, and then capping at the current 3k for v15+.

Again, this is more just "hey, wouldn't this have been a better way?" rather than expecting a change of this style at this point.

I say make it segment free, because currently, segment subtraction is only connected to buying a Moglophone II from the Moogle. If you don't have a Moglophone II, they should just make it where you can enter and participate with others (whether they have MPII or not) and help them get clear. This way, if I have all clears but my friend has none, I am not sacrificing points simply to help him get up to speed. They could also make it so that your first clear of a boss consumes no segments, so you can continue to fight an NM and notuse segments until you get the win, rather than the way it is now where you can burn tens of thousands of segments trying to get clears.

I guess they could make Moglophone IIs operate exactly like Ambuscade KIs, where they are not consumed unless you win, but then they would have to figure out how to handle people intentionally losing for RP, segment-free. I think it's clear to everyone that delinking segments from clears for first-timers should be implemented somehow.