Dev Tracker - Discussion

Interesting note, one of our BLU's is actually the main healer on the third NM of the run. Healing Breeze / Carot is remarkably strong, especially since it doesn't get penalized by the double dark weather.

If it's a bad fight with Doom, i usually reassign a controller button to holy waters.

Echos i have no qualms with automation or addons because you have to keep them stocked and fumbling for a button several times in a row when you need to be casting is just not great.

DD that don't keep remedy or pancea when needed just don't make sense. You're so cheap/lazy that you'd rather complain than fix your issue and go back to doing literally the only thing you're there for?


Healing Breeze is so strong. Sure BLU don't get to stun every tp move like they used to, but being able to immediately pick up your entire party after a TP move goes through is such a nice perk of bringing a BLU that knows what they are doing.

Yeah I did and I find it pretty fun.
I made a yag whm just for odyssey because our group needed one and I gotta say, I like it much more than I thought I would.

About the one mistake = wipe thing, that's kinda the point of Odyssey. The fights are very demanding and definitely not mistakes-friendly. And it doesn't only apply to the healer. It takes practice and sometimes good choices/unexpected adjustements on the fly.
Of course, for this to work, you need a group that understand this and doesn't ragequit after a couple of wipes. I won't deny it and it makes a huge difference.


I've done Gaol on pretty much every support job and, to be honest, even on BRD or GEO I was never just "standing there". As you already mentioned, using enmity set on BRD to get hate on add is one super useful thing, especially on fights like Ongo or Arebati. Reapplying dispelled songs, or changing songs based on which Aura goes up, or how fast/slow the fight is going, are other things you gotta do.
Same goes for GEO. Switch to a defensive bubble/refresh bubble for a bit, go WS on Ngai, toss some extra nukes, time your abilities right... While I agree your options are limited there is definitely a lot to do.
In fact the only time I had some real "I'm just watching things happens for 1 or 2 mins" happening was COR on Mboze. And still, it's not like I stayed idle for 5 mins either.

I don't have a static either, I go with PUG or go with friend/LS mate and their random friends most of the time.

I don't find healing being the toughest part for PUG. But finding people that needs the NM, has jobs for the strategy, and geared well enough to bypass higher vengeance DPS check being much harder.

As far as healing goes, I think on some tougher NM curaga IV should be prioritized over everything else, and only cast erase/-na right after curaga. So something like curaga > erase or na or cureskin or dia(pick one) > curaga > erase or na or cureskin or dia again.

If you cast non-curaga spell right before NM strong TP move, you'll likely get stuck in casting animation and unable to curega immediately, then people dies. So in tougher fights I'd rather take my time and wait for the safe chance to cast erase/-na/dia than risk it.

On bee I really recommend a DNC for heal and on everything else I recommend a BLU. Unless your setup need a RDM.

You need scherzo on some v20s and on shark you may need to ask them to lock warder's charm in the neck slot.

If your Blu didn't set heal spells you need to ask them. They can't just cast heal spell mid fight if they are prepared to go full offense.

Sometimes this kind of things just requires a bit more communication and practice.

I get players not used to being responsible for their own -na status needs via meds, what I don't get it adjusting to handle that need due to the situation. Any player can make a vanilla macro of

/item "Holy Water" <me>

without any kind of addon or external program. 2 or 3 of these kind of macros to cover remedy/holy water/panacea pretty much covers everything you could ever need, and a unique one for echos if you want to be cheap about it and carry those plus remedies (I sure do).

So again, if PUGs aren't willing to adjust their expectations for fights (I'm a DD, I'm not supposed to handle status healing that's the healer's job, etc), I really lose sympathy. Sure, its something new to many, but that doesn't mean its impossible to implement outside of automation. I'm not implying that sentiment is being espoused here- only that it seems to be a common critique of success when in reality its preparation and communication- things I do see repeated a ton as needed for this content.

Yes standing there going /cheer is so involved.

No your not changing songs midfight, those are set prior to starting the battle because you are doing SV Nitro on them at the start and they last 10~11 minutes. For GEO your bubbles are set with a change *maybe* happening around when the add pops if doing a V20 clear. If either of those jobs is having to do "lots of stuff", then the team has failed miserably somewhere and is already on the way to a wipe.

Removing subjobs was a bad idea period, no different then removing access to magic or gear. Imagine having to do these fights without casting any spells, using any job abilities or wearing any gear. Would be novel for a little bit, then that would wear off and it's just aggravating, especially since SE just vastly expanded versatility by raising the SJ level cap.

I'm sure there's people who would enjoy content where you cannot swap gear, or equip gear, or access JAs, or access Spells and they would be happy "omg look how difficult this content is!"

Yes, and that's the "easy" way to make content harder, by removing core elements of the game around which the majority of the game/jobs are balanced around.


Granted that the subjob removal is probably not as radical as some of the examples mentioned here, but the reasoning is exactly the same.

What exactly makes that the "easy" way to make content harder? That makes no sense to me. I'd say the easy way to make content harder is to just boost mob stats to super high levels or give them overly strong TP moves, like they did with Reisenjima HELMs and Legion.

Doing system changes like restricting subjobs seems to me like it'd be much harder to implement both in terms of programming and in terms of testing to make sure content is clearable.

Yes you can, especially on Gaol where you get a random aura at 75% and you probably have a COR in the pt that can Wild Card. If you chose to go with a more defensive setup (let's say put a Minne in there to better deal with the add), and then you get an attack down aura, you might wanna redo songs and drop the Minne for another Minuet.
Of course if the pt is still at the stage of not being even close of killing the mob then it's kinda pointless. But when the group is close to a win this can change things for the better.


Maybe it would be better to say "having to pay attention" rather than "lots of stuff to do". Because then we could argue DDs don't have much to do either in some cases, except check for a fetter pop here and there and smash WS button. In my experience, in gaol v20, no matter the job, you can't just stay there and drop your focus and just expect things to go alright. But to each their own, ofc.

I can agree with GEO, but BRD?

Ongo: Reapply songs on tank, tank add at V20 and close double darkness at V19 farm. Reapply Threnody.
Xevioso: You are basically additional DD there.
Mboze: Savage on Mboze at V20 (tp on add). At V19 you indeed do nothing beside songs I guess.
Ngai: Tank the add ideally at V20. Do WS for blue proc.
Kalunga: Reapply songs on tank.
Arebati: Reapply songs on tank. You can also try to help proc blue with Tauret.

There is a huge difference between restricting SJ and restricting gear change/JA use/spell casting LOL.

Restricting SJ actually opens up different ways to use/play some of the jobs, not the other way around. I never feel frontline healer/haste samba jobs like DNC is this game changing before Odyssey.

I think restricting selective ja/spells could lead to the same tbh, just depends which. In this case for example. Restriction of healing magic and Hasso would work the same if not stronger in favor of DNC in context of healing/haste samba.

Restriction of using all magic or all JAs would be silly tho.

Yeah no, attempting to change buffs mid fight is a recipe for disaster at V20 or everything except Kalunga. The margin for error is slim enough that a bard randomly cycling stuff is more likely to cause a problem then to fix one. Instead what you do is sequence buffs for worst case scenario and stick with that. Prior to going in we already know the plan and we stick with it. The only one that is truly random is Bumba.

Gaol fights can be broken into two types of fights, offensive and defensive. In a defensive fight there is plenty of time to beat the boss, you just need to find a way to survive it. Ngai, Kalunga and Xevioso are examples of this, staying alive is the hard part. We add defensive buffs to assist in the not dieing part. Offensive fights are where the boss isn't dealing a ton of damage to folks and instead it's a DPS race against the clock, Arribati, Ongo, Mboze (TP starve method) and Bumba are examples of this. We maximize DPS buffs because our real fight is against the clock.

I think a lot of these responsibilities for BRD in these fights are specific to your group, and whether or not the party comp requires it. If you want your BRD to optimize, there's room for it, but it's not like a requirement imo. Because just from looking at your list, I can personally say BRD in our group never needs to do half of those things.

For example, we don't even bother bringing BRD for V19 farm, it's basically either SMN spam or BLM+SCH (or SCH helix) and be done). We don't even use BRD melee on Xevioso; it's just too much tp spam and war+sam(+dnc) basically cover it. Tanking the add on Ongo is pretty much a requirement, but I have also done Ngai with RDM and he handled it. Also have completely ignored the add while it whacked on everyone, and just threw an extra Minne to compensate.

There's multiple ways to go about these fights, but most BRDs I have seen actually opt to be lazier than active. Reapplying Threnody is a pretty big deal, and I have seen quite a few of them just not do it.

Bard can indeed keep busy, on top of all things mentioned already there is the time you can spend attempting to land the difficult songs, nocturne on Ngai for example.

The only instance I have found reason to change songs mid-fight is during the opening 25% on Arebati. Initial song set gets non-nitro'd for all the minuet+etude that is re-sung nitro'd prior to soul voice wearing to incorporate 2 minne because ain't nobody likes a raaz giving them the business. Our initial Arebati v20 was coming up tight on time, optimizing damage output in those first couple minutes was an adjustment we made.

Scenarios like that where the bard does not have a whole lot to do otherwise affords us the opportunity to commit all of our focus on singing for maximum potential in some of the most precision/execution oriented fights in the game at this moment. It speaks to the essence of bard and is something refreshing that I have come to enjoy greatly from the content.

Yeah, but then you could say the same for BRD with subjob. You could completely ignore the fact that you can help with /whm and just do basic stuff too. BRD is almost always a job that could be active if person playing it wants that.

Very true and I agree. The problem with BRD is that, for so long, everyone used it as a buff-battery to supercharge all other DDs and just zerg everything. Most people never factored BRD into many strategies, whether healing, additional support, debuffs, dd etc. It was just buff and go. Lately, it's gotten more use due to better gear and more optimized setups (like mercing lowman), but I think a lot of people still hold that mentality that BRD is all about buff + afk. That thinking got exposed to a degree with Gaol. The chickens come home to roost eventually.

I wish SE would stop trying to adjust all these ambuscades. They turned this month's ambuscade from super annoying, to super duper annoying. That seems to be their philosophy, "how can we change this to annoy our player base the most."

I mean, they have to account for the fact that players are getting markedly stronger via Master Levels and better gear (Gaol augments), so throwing in additional mechanics actually makes the fights a little more engaging than they previously were. We've seen these fights several times over the years; the strategies are out and it's easy to expect what the fight will go like if they change nothing. It's kind of applaud-worthy IMO that they actually are doing SOMETHING to these fights, though some of them can be annoying.

Mamool adjustment to me wasn't very annoying, it was just another measure you had to account for since sleep/binding was such a guaranteed win. Qutrub adjustment was kind of annoying I do agree, but it just meant more weight on the healer during last phase. This month, they might do add a mechanic like "separating or enfeebling certain goblins gives the main boss access to another move", to discourage the easy cheese/bind method that we've done a few times.

If they actually made them engaging, maybe... but this is what they said about the Qutrub one...


Literally saying, "its going to be easier"

Everything thing they did to it just amplified the annoying aspects of the fight. If the mobs get TP, they oneshot everyone, so they increased the regain they have. People don't cure during the last phase, because it can't kill you... auto death.

That's not engaging, it's annoying. It didn't change the fight significantly, it just made it so it could screw up the run easier.

The issue is that natively BRD doesn't have much else to give outside of songs. They buff the party with 10~11 minute songs, then stick elegy + threnody while Nitro is still up, then that's it. Debuffs last slightly more then half as long as buffs do, so they can reapply in six to seven minutes, but during that time they are just sitting on their hands. Sub job was where BRD's would pull their non-song utility from, either /WHM for support or /NIN for DPS and many of these fights they can't DPS on. GEO is similar, they have two bubbles, one entrust and that's about it. Sub job is where they would pull their utility from to do other stuff.

Those are just two of the most extreme examples. Many other jobs experience the same issue, where they are balanced around pulling utility and abilities from subjob. But lets be real, this isn't about difficulty but about exclusivity. Some people like the feeling they get when they have accomplished something that others have not and are not a fan of any change that would increase the number of people who have that accomplishment. They view beating the V20's are Trophy's and Trophy's are only special when scarce.

What a conveniently sweeping generalization of those you disagree with. Especially odd when some of us actively help others get their clears, and very much don't try to make things more exclusive.

Allowing sub-jobs wouldn't make Gaol NMs radically better in terms of accessibility. It'd mostly allow already hardcore players to wreck the NMs harder and more efficiently with all the same rote strategies and comps we employ for all other content. There are better things they could do to improve Odyssey's approachability or remove the randomness in its difficulty — things which I already noted — while also retaining what makes its gameplay unique and less beholden to the normal meta.

What restricting sub-jobs does do is force players to be more creative and thoughtful with their jobs and comps, in ways that they never have to with no limitations. If BRD & GEO were able to sub WHM and contribute to off-healing (or even take over entirely on some NMs), suddenly jobs like BLU & DNC — which have struggled somewhat to find a place in the non-restricted meta — become less uniquely beneficial, and consequently aren't brought. If everyone could sub NIN, then that trivializes the add's danger and all but removes the need to build a strategy around it.

The problem of certain jobs — really, "job" singular — lacking anything to do is a fundamental issue of job design with the one in question; GEO is a badly designed job, and it always has been, especially compared to its Adoulin counterpart RUN, or the WotG jobs SCH & DNC, all of which are more intricate and complete-feeling.

BRD has a lot more going on in the fights than GEO, now that the add mechanic is in play. It's either a key DD/proc contributor, dealing with resinging after dispels, or the member responsible for the add.

This is whats known as a non sequitur. Jobs like BLU and DNC being used are a result of the one job use per event limit, not the subjob limit. Allow subs would actually make such uses more common as subs primarily add utility and versatility. BRD and GEO would not take over healing because they are only present in one fight out of three, normally the first fight of the night, once consumed they can't be used again. I happen to like this limitation when combined with the amp charge system, it provides a reward for those willing to come up with creative ways to fight the second and third NM's with unique job setups instead of BRD+GEO+COR all the things.

Currently we do something like this, as we max out the gear from one we rotate it another.

Ngai
MNK
WAR
GEO
BRD
COR
WHM

Ongo
RUN
RNG
SCH
BLM
SMN
NIN <- this guy really doesn't have much else for this fight since we burned GEO and COR already.

Gigelorum or Henwen
PLD
DRG
SAM
DNC
BLU
RDM

The BLU and RDM heal together, mostly it's the BLU with AoE heals and the RDM doing buffs / debuffs / and some spot heals. The exact job loadout depends on the fight and who's got what, but we're the folks that first killed Arribati with some THF and NIN spamming Empy arrow with TP bonus weapons. Lacking SJ's is the single biggest limit to creative solutions to the second and third NM fight. We've had one of our NIN's tank stuff and it's real hit and miss because hate tools are very restrictive without sub. If anything allowing subs would let RDM heal more and the BLU focus more on blunt DPS.

Completely agree on ambuscade. It used to be, lets do some ambuscade, chill and make some gil.

Now its just annoying and/or cheap mechanics every month.

Its a great event in that everyone benefits from it. I just dont find ambuscade fun, engaging or enjoyable at all.

Pass. RDM go be a pink mage and BLU ignore all your spells and just be a niche DPS that we will immediately exclude the second we can take something else. What a new and unique opinion that RDMs and BLUs have never heard before.

If anything, I'm hoping they make a way for shield jobs to natively cap delay instead of needing a subjob to cap delay.

RDM isn't pink mage, it's a multi-functional job and one of those functions is healing. In a three NM run where everyone is stretching roles on second and third NM's, having another healer is always a good thing.

That would just slant the meta to fencer builds as the only thing holding those back is the delay, abd in wars case its not by very much.

It'd also make Haste Samba even less useful.

With Naegling in existence I'm very hesitant to make fencer setups any stronger, if only because the resulting nerf would end up overcompensating. They would do something silly like make Savage Blade fTP 0.25, 1.0, 1.5 and it's WSC 10% STR 10% MND. FFXI Dev's smite first and ask questions later.