Dev Tracker - Discussion

So reduce the amount of NM attempts to about 6. Okay, with only 6 tries per week, I can see a "casual" player wanting to be more careful about the groups they join.

The reason why people aren't shouting to make groups is because people aren't getting the clears they need to take their groups in. They need to remove the requirement for players to clear vengeance from previous tiers and make each NM work on it's own separate progression.


Also, not sure if it was Afania's idea or they just mentioned it, but RP should work for any NM in the same tier. I would actually go further to make it a 1:1 conversion, but require a win.

I spent significant time and gil re-gearing my alt's BLM specifically for Ongo, since that was the only character in our normal static group who had a master BLM and close enough to endgame gear. Anybody else would have been basically starting from scratch. Guess where else I now get to use that BLM besides Ongo (and, to be fair, I guess also a couple of T2 Gaol NMs)? You got it, NOWHERE. So fun to force people to level/gear an essentially mandatory job for a chance to win one fight.

You are a fan of statistics and you truly writing that people will play other jobs if there is legit pros? lol They will bandwagon the easiest solution. Some jobs require full setup change to shine (and they are super OP then), which will never happen if an event has clear meta and people in PUG will say no to anyone on job that is not a part of copy paste strategy. Do you realize how hard is to convince any PUG leader that something might work when it's off meta? Many people still don't accept DRG or BLU as DDs, even when both can do way more damae than some meta picks.

Let me ask you one thing, even with clear restrictions, have you ever consider taking BST with dagger as DD for Xevioso? I bet you haven't. Even if such restricted scenario you was probably only looking for THF, DRG, WAR and DNC. Most people probably look for even less. So when it's hard to convince anyone that BST with dagger could work very well as DD partner to DNC, then what's the chance it would even be possible with just 25% bonus to piercing lol

Forcing people out of comfort zone is the only working solution and its very FFXI way too. I like it :P

Also saying that you are done with Sortie after 2 weeks and ML40 after 2 weeks means you are not casual, because that would require playing for few hours every day.

Some will take it as you (playing job only as a tool to reach some goals), but someone else would play BLM and suddenly realize its super fun for him and will play it more, even just for fun, which might never happen if Ongo wouldnt exist.

Just got caught up on the thread:

1. Finding 5 people to do the 1 fight you need on V20 and finding 5 people to build a static are 2 very different things. Trying to pug these fights does not make sense because there's no incentive for anyone to help someone finish 1 fight and get left behind. Make a static. Find people who need help with stuff and help them and in return they help you or visa versa.

2. THIS ISN'T SHOUT CONTENT. Yes, people can shout groups for Ambuscade, the level of the difficulty is similar for VD some months. But it's not the same. Odyssey actually requires people to have plans and not just simple ones like "okay sleep everything, and then assist x player as we go through the fight". These fights have mechanics that regularly get reacted to, "Kalunga weakness, run out", "Aura started, we need to do X/Y/Z", "Boss dispelled X, Boss Absorbed Y", and most of the current strategies limit as much of these situations as possible (Low TP strats)

Edit: 2A. The only reasonable or effective shouts that will probably ever work for V20 Odyssey are: "we need this 1 support job with very little to do to help our group win x fight", and this is only because a group needs someone, not someone is trying to make a group of 6.

3. I agree that the content isn't set up in a way that people who do v20 could assist others, the entry costs alone make helping other people detrimental to the helpers and that is something I'd want them to change. BUT what I've done for people interested in v20 is advise them to make a static, advise them to divide up jobs they don't have for fights, gear those jobs across their static members, and share with them the strategies I've used and the strategies I've seen others say succeed.

4. The job restriction I originally mentioned about brd/cor/geo all the things, was in reference to 3x fights in a row like Simon mentioned.

5. The amount of information that was shared across the odyssey thread, every time someone got a kill some in unique ways, the community all worked together and shared successes. Some fights(Ongo) have 1 method to win and that's it. AND THAT'S OKAY. Not every single piece of content was meant to have alternative methods, nor was it meant to be handled casually or via PUG.

6. People want to be able to participate in v20(and eventually v25) because the juice is worth the squeeze. It seems like people don't want to do the extra effort to squeeze though, which is why mercs make money. "Oh don't wanna make a group capable of doing all the v20's? Sure we'll take you for a price, and only on x, y or z job" Yes, you probably have jobs capable of succeeding in V20 and are great at what you do, so what's your next step? Make a party, help other people at the same skill level as you get to the point where you can win together.

If people are struggling and envious with v20 now, just wait for v25. "Why can't I have the best loots too when I have all 3 of the bandwagon jobs maxed! It's not fair!" and to which the answer is "Make Friends and work together, it will take time but you will get what you work for"

The issue is when you can't realistically play BLM on other endgame content even if you think it's super fun. I like playing my BLM, I just don't ever get the opportunity to do it anywhere else because it's either completely non-viable in other content (see: useless in most Ambuscades), or at the very least it's a glaringly worse option (crowd control and statue nuking in dyna without the added benefits of jobs that can do that and more, like BRD RDM BLU COR). And if you have a party willing to go along and set up a nuke strategy... well, nuke resist wall says you can't really do that.

Unless my friends want to indulge me and let me bring a worse job that requires buffing specifically for it to be the princess, I'm just wasting another 5-10 people's time. That's not fun.

But hey, before Ongo all I got to use BLM for was Kei. At least they gave me a new "this is the only fight where you get to use this job you enjoy" target.

I'll give them some credit for Sortie phase 1 though, pretty good job of designing that to be flexible enough to make it feel like almost all jobs can make a useful contribution.

This all boils down to people feeling they deserve the max returns without max effort. SE flatly stated from the release of Odyssey:Gaol that those who put in different levels of effort would see different results. Yet so many people want to be carried for just building a Naegling and engaging...because 2+ years of content let them do that. Break that belief among the players, and having a job built simply for a unique fight doesn't seem so horrific.

If all you want to do is play 2 DD jobs and think you're entitled to v20 clears and max RP in those Atonement3/Bumba fights, you just haven't been paying attention. And existing groups aren't going to pick up rando DDs, they're going to pick up rando Idris GEOs who have extremely easy duties in Gaol, maybe a rando healer on some of the simpler fights...but your TP Gun/Naegling onry COR ain't going anywhere, nor is your Savage Build Onry WAR.

This is me.


This is also me


Yeah, it's "fun" in a vacuum. BST is "fun", BLM is "fun", and sometimes the crew I roll with don't even care that I come a suboptimal job, but it's only possible for me to come that job because of the group I have. Not because the job is extremely valuable. Once you get to a certain point with players, you can make most, if not all jobs work. But it's not necessarily a luxury other people have. This is why I don't take conversations about changing buffs to accommodate one job or so seriously. It's unrealistic for most people. Only established groups can take advantage to that degree.

I suppose it's cool to have BST and BLM on deck if for whatever reason they suddenly become needed.

Don't worry SE is working on making Ongo more flexible, with the empy +3 shoes you may be able to get the job done with a geared out SCH instead of geared out BLM, probably still need a BLM for -ja and ES Impact but might be able to be flexible in either a geared out BLM or SCH lol.

If every job is fairly balanced (like within 15% DPS gap, or has JA that make up the gap) then there shouldn't be one job that's overwhelmingly easier than the rest. Easier to play or communicate for PUG leader so they are preferred? Maybe. Overwhelmingly more effective in terms of actual performance? Probably not.

Majority of people will bandwagon the popular solution but theory crafters and job enthusiasts won't.

If somebody wants to bandwagon one solution let them. As long as one job isn't overwhelmingly the better choice for most things I fail to see why is that a problem. job enthusiasts and theory crafters will continue to play their jobs using non-meta. They don't need SE setting up rules to make them try different setup and jobs. They will use non-meta jobs because they can play non-meta jobs equally effective.

If everyone else wants to bandwagon, it's their choice. They should be allowed to and they aren't taking fun away.

This is all assume most jobs are fairly balanced and no OP job that's like 40%+ stronger than everything else of course.

Seriously, if BST is almost equally effective as every other DD whats stopping you from playing it? You aren't losing DPS because of it.

If it's way behind other DD then SE should balance it instead of forcing us to use it with rules. This logic isn't hard to understand.



If I'm the one on BST then I totally would try, lol. Not just Xevioso too, but many other NM that I feel a BST could work.

If somebody that I know loves BST and has parsed well in the past at least once when I pt with them then why not? I'd love to try.

If somebody ever get rejected on BST it is usually because 1) I don't have past data to support that guy's performance and I don't want to risk 5 people's 3k segs to find out 2) As a complete stranger, this guy didn't add any useful info to help me decide when they sent a tell.

1) and 2) also applies to any other DD tbh. Not even a BST only problem :p. It's not like war drk Sam DRG never gets rejected in PUG because leaders don't know them lol. Although they do win trust slightly easier than BST, meta job isn't auto invite for everything.


If that is your world view then I have nothing to say to you lol. Because I prefer to search for more solutions that makes most people happy, instead of trying to convince myself that only ONE solution ever exist, even if many people already complained about that solution having serious issues.

I fail to see how it's a "working" solution anyways. Even with current Odyssey restrictions I don't see every PUG shouting for BST for Xevioso. People still bandwagon war for everything. It's more of a shitty "solution" that doesn't fix the problem at all, but it adds plenty of extra problems for PUG.

Easier access to fights = more attempts = more knowledge of fights = more conventional (and unconventional) wins = more clears = more fun for everyone.

If congestion wasn't an issue, if they weren't profiting from server transfers. This takes priority.

They would balance the population, negate the congestion, allow for more access by lowered entry "fee" allowing more freedom from the meta (experimentation and trial/error with minimal penalty)

But no. Money and only money. Masochists put up with it and it equates to higher subs. You would rather be just the right amount of constantly irritated than be happy and accomplishing things (cause then you quit, they can't keep you constantly happy)

This would literally mean you could pug a fight once and never have to do it again. And just do the easiest enemy in a tier over and over to RP all of the gear in that tier. This is not making the content more accessible it's making people able to cheese it even more than they already do with their 6% rp runs.

If the content is too hard for you to do then don't do it. If the rewards aren't worth the grind required(looking at you shinryu) everyone will stop doing it. The problem is rewards ARE worth the effort and people are sad that they don't want to put in the effort. If the gear weren't amazing with augments would anyone care that some people have r25 gear from odyssey to show off? No. Exactly like master trials, "sweet lightsaber bro, lol nah I'm not doing that, there's no point"

There's so many people that feel like getting into odyssey is too hard so they don't participate, but if they worked together they could do it. No one is gatekeeping the methods to win. People don't like that those methods aren't fast, or easy, or reflect the bandwagon methods of the past.

The only way to make this content more accessible is to remove the punishment of failed attempts and practice. Anything beyond that cheapens the vastly better rewards than anything else in game.

I've never liked the 6% rp runs that allow people to act like they've worked so hard for gear. I honestly think the threshold for rp gains should be 50% or greater because it does cheapen the reward. If you're going into a fight to win and die after 50% you tried, you did well, ***happens, here's a portion of your reward. The 6% crowd is literally, "okay guys does everyone have 3 reraisers, cool, we go in, once boss is under 95% we run away, die, rez and wait 15 minutes for free rewards. Repeat twice and do it again"

And the suggestion of let's use all rp from the tier for any gear is absolutely just another give me more free stuff that I shouldn't have to put in the work to obtain.

Afania's idea of 1:3 conversion of RP to segments mid run is something I could stand behind because it allows people to do bosses without any punishing losses to segment count, the problem is it would be abused to just fund runs over and over. 3x amp v19 is over 5k RP, now we've just afforded an entirely new run with 2k segments leftover, no more need to do segment farm. Once again, the player base trying to remove content they don't like doing, in order to get the rewards they don't want to have to work for.

I think you should just be able to have an option that lets you give up all RP and clears in exchange for not spending any moglophones at all.

They could give you a warning once you zone into the lobby and let you toggle it at the moogle there for people that might forget to toggle it off.

I wholly disagree that Odyssey content is suitable only to static groups.

Perhaps in the start of the content phase, until hard core groups have formalized the tactics and strategies become common, so this shouldn't be permanent issue for pug groups. Static groups on the long run are just more of a convenience rather than requirement.

The way for pick up groups to successfully clear V20s starts from recruitment. Gathering the right players who are prepared with the right weapons utilities gear for their specific job / role is essential. Then having a leader lay out the strategy is key, following the strategy is not rocket science, you'll probably fail once, twice, and third time may be the charm.

There is absolutely nothing that stipulates Odyssey V20 is not shout content friendly and requires a static, all that's needed is preparation, and proper organization.

I personally cleared majority of my A1-2-3 V20s through pugs, and they were awesome. I met some great new people, and made new friends, footage of my random V20 pug Jan 20th 2022, noting I was the only foreigner in that group, despite the language barrier, we still cleared it.

PS There are countless pick-up groups for Odyssey V1-V20 clears happening daily on Bahamut (JP shouts), or at least that's how it was back before I quit.

I guess it depends on your server but I have cleared fights at V20 in yells I joined.

I'm not sure what this would accomplish. All the people I know that have all the V20 clears and most of the armor RP'd also are sitting on hundreds of thousands of segments.

From what I understand, everyone complaining about there aren't people doing the content in shouts is because lack of people doing the content ready to do it. So I would assume this is a smaller server problem where the answer is static, not make the content easier. Or the same players could transfer to a server with a better population like asura/bahamut since you guys seem to have more people doing the content if your pugs are working. There used to be shout groups on our server, regularly during V15 but have died out, the last groups I saw shouted were some A3 v20s.

I'd say it's pretty obvious what it'd accomplish. Very, very few people have significantly excess segments (especially considering that V25/R30 is coming out, so "hundreds of thousands" probably isn't going to be enough), including the people that are capped out on gear. I know I'd definitely help other people get clears/RP way more freely if I didn't need to spend segments.

Someone also doesn't need to have all the clears to benefit from this. Got a new person in a group and want to get them up to speed with clears that you already have, or want to alternate NMs with your group with you not being interested in that NM's item? Just turn off rewards and you can help them all you want.

This would be fine if all it did was unlock them being able to open the fight for themselves. No information KI, no augment unlocks, no rp, no charging up amps, nothing. All it unlocks is the ability to open the fight for yourself, I'd be fine with this. The only way to get the rewards would be to spend the Segments on an actual kills.

This would cut down the segment requirement from fresh to v20 fight access down to 0. But without everything being restricted gear unlocks from KI, Augment unlocks from KI upgrades, and charging up amps, it would become the merc dream.

not sure this was your intent, but a major benefit of being able to participate in a fight without spending segments would be to mess around with non-proven setups. I do strongly feel that "meta" methods in FFXI have always existed, but the punishment for failure for early groups is so large in Odyssey it does drive many to just "do what is working for everyone else" rather than experiment.

I'd say something like every 5 clears on a particular nm lowers the cost of entry by 500 until it cost 0.

I'd have to think of something better than this. Maybe the no cost no reward is the solution like Geriond says.

Maybe Tier1 cost 500 segments, T2 1000, T3 1500, T4 2000 + the no cost = no reward would work.

The whole point of the idea is that so people can help their friends get clears/RP without having to spend 3k-9k segments themselves. Who cares if it would benefit mercs when it'd be such a boon to people who want to help friends that are still progressing through the system? Mercing is not such a bad thing that SE should avoid doing things that help the playerbase just to keep them from doing their thing.

Every possible tangible personal benefit from the content to the person choosing to do it would be disabled. No clear, no RP, no amp charging, etc.

It would accomplish a lot. It would allow people to help others without it being a cost to themselves. Friends. Strangers. It would also not make people feel like they are wasting Segments joining groups trying for clears if they have a limited supply of Segments. Everyone keeps talking about using alternative/creative methods to beat bosses, but the elephant in the room is that the system is not very friendly for people who don't have a stash saved up. So people are less likely to help others if it costs then something, unless they are getting something back that they need.

This is all accurate. I have found some success forming PUGs for V20 clears. They all came from having a clear strategy in mind, executing it, and if we lost, we would take a few minutes to talk through what we did/didn't do properly (buffs, positioning, gear, internet connection), then reattempt. I have actually cleared some V20 PUgs without ever using Discord, so that's not a requirement either. One of the biggest issues with this, though, is attrition. Many people in PUGs are simply not interested in trying and failing many times to figure it out. People want a fast pass to victory and are not willing to work with a group trying to clear for the first time; they just leave after a couple of losses.

Every possible benefit would have to be locked for everyone participating for it to be reasonable.

Otherwise,

Why not just create a system where you can buy your augment level upgrades for segments?

Why not create a system where you can buy RP for segments?

Why not create a system where you can just pay Gil for access to the fight you want?

And the answer is simple, because some rewards need to be earned.

If you want everyone to have access to everything for the cost only of their personal segments, why not just have everyone buy what they want for segments and Gil. It's the same thing as throwing together a roll cor and sitting watching while a group mercs it for you.

Once again, everyone wants all of the rewards, without the work. I'm sure you'd love to help your friends, I would too, but there's a difference between helping and carrying. All this system would create is spoonfeeding rewards to people for the majority, cheapening the work the minority had to put in to earn the rewards.

A lot of us already did this before the fights were fully understood. That punishment for failure does suck, but that victory is so much sweeter when your 50k segs deep haha