Dev Tracker - Discussion

Not willing, or just not able. Gone are the times where most players have like 6+ hours to put into the game at a time, and it's 3k segments gone with every loss (4.5k if they're using amps on every failed run).

Statics have the huge benefit of getting to come back the next day with the same people, meaning the lessons are (hopefully) still learned.

Bar RP gain from everyone if you want to absolutely want to prevent carrying like that, but clears being possible for the people other than the person giving it up is absolutely essential.

Oh agreed, and the statics I've participated in since this content started did as well. But the johnny-come-latelys want their rewards NOW..they are rarely getting self-clears starting with V0 attempts and working their way up. And that's the time to first start experimenting and getting familiar with mechanics. Instead, they want that v20 unlock and then 6% spam RP runs, never to worry about the mechanics again.

If SE is bothered that Odyssey wasn't as popular as they hoped it would be, there will be adjustments at some point. The question is whether those adjustments will be reasonable, or complete slaps in the face to those who have put a lot of time into the content as intended.

I don't know, with Empyrean being as great as it is with such a low bar, I'm happy to see Odyssey stay just as horrible as it is.

Practice mode would only help the community and the game.

I have very few people who can play consistently because life is being life for the last several months. It would be amazing to be able to roll into whatever clear we haven't touched in weeks and mess it up with them several times without penalty.

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Different part of the the discussion: both segment farming and bosses have changed how I approach the game for the better and got me to play jobs I was adamantly against playing less than 2 years ago. If one of the objectives of Odyssey was to get people out of their comfort zone jobs then they succeeded. Is the entire event perfect? Far from it.

It's an MMO, yes, some gear should be COMPLETELY out of reach for some amount of players, even a majority.

That's how you keep a moron subscribed, how many months did it take to get Byakko's. How many 3 am wake up calls for ground kings.

Gear doesn't make you good, getting good, gets you the gear. Yall been assbackwards for too long.

The gear itself is not out of reach, all that's out of reach are the better augments, R20 and R25. At V0 I was in a group with 4 characters, pup, run, rdm, brd. We killed V0 Ongo without magic casters or knowing the weakness.

If you're saying the content is out of reach for players because the jobs are too restrictive, it's not.

If you're saying the content is out of reach because they can't get the best augments without working on things they don't want to do, I'd agree.

You can get every single piece of gear from odyssey without an optimal comp. I know because when me and my buddy finished every V0 there were 2 of us and we didn't know anything about the bosses the week they came out.

If you want the augments, do the work and grind like the rest of us. Or find someone to let you join every V15 kill and then start a group and work on v20 with a 135k segment head start vs everyone who did 0, 5, and 10 kills before getting to 15.

Practice mode would be awesome and I think it would be a neat addition, maybe even put in extra things into practice mode like selecting the boss aura so you could try to kill Ongo vs MACC or MAB auras for some serious hardmode practice.

But beyond all of this, when v25 launches and people still haven't tried to just do the grind, every complaint will fall on deaf ears.

It's been 2 years since gaol launched, and no one really cared that much about missing gaol until they added A3/A4 and people realized what they could get. Then alot of people got the gear and said you know that's good enough for me. But as the power level of the pieces gets bigger, - - SUDDENLY - - "IT'S SO NOT FAIR THAT I CAN'T GET WHAT THEY HAVE!"

Edit: Another thing, they already made the content easier when they Nerfed murder tree before v20 ever existed. THANKS SE!

Think you went off script there bud. Pretty sure anyone talking in a game forum about v15 let alone v20 has put some time and work into their grind... this is ffxi after all.

Good players with good gear are turned off because of how Odyssey works. Note that none of the ideas being put forward here to fix it have anything to do with it's difficulty. I have to actually be able to get in before I need to worry about getting good...

I will disagree. I know of many cases, where people just bought their V15/V20 clears, and then only spam them for RP.

In my opinion, the issue is not with difficulty or how much time it takes (it has been more than a year at this point, even a slowpoke like me got to T3 V10), but the fact that there are no shortcuts.

If you are lucky (or have end-game geared friends), you can do VD Ambuscade vol 1 with 99-level gear. No need for hard work and step-by-step progress. If you have friends, you can get all Omen bosses done when just standing there AFK and not doing anything. Dynamis? W3 clears? You guess it. However, it doesn't work for Odyssey (not yet at least), and this makes some people angry.

Getting V0 clears doesn't demand you to have best-in-the-slot gear, but you need to have a good job variety and a knowledge of how to play it. So, if you want to do them with a fresh Ambuscade +1 gear, or with having only DD jobs, it is no wonder that you will not be able to find groups. Ody broke the game in that meaning, that there are players for whom the gear progression looks something like that: get Ambuscade +1 gear -> get Ody sets -> farm V15/V20 for RP. It makes me think about the old case of 'X job sucks, I made a REMA and I still do no damage', when completely forgetting about the rest of the gear.

It doesn't mean that the Ody system doesn't have a fault. I would like it to be more rewarding in segments farm if you do halos and NMs. Sheol A and B should give way more segments and gill, and maybe even have a longer time limit (they have more floors and the design of the floors is often more complicated than in C). Make people enter the Gaol without using phones, but also without rewards (so we can test different things and see what will work).

Jobs in FFXI wont ever be balanced like that, because FFXI is situational. On a 60 sec zerg Warcry is crazy strong. On 5min fight it's no longer that impactful for example. Also many jobs don't bring just pure own DPS, even when they are DDs. DNC's haste samba and box steps, Bst's Killer Instinct and both Ooze or MDB down Ready moves, BLU's SuddenLunge|TenebralCrush|MightyGuard}etc., Circles against right enemies, Tomahawk and MANY more. All that is impossible to balance at this point, especially that in one fight it's totally OP, when it other fight it's useless. Scenario often decides about job potential and it's how FFXI always was.

To be exact, yes Gears should be completely out of reach to some amount of players, but they should FEEL like they have a chance to get it.

That's how you keep them subbed.

If they feel like they have ZERO chance to get it ever, they'll just cancel sub and won't even try.

If they believe they MAY get the gear, they'll stay subbed and keep trying over and over. Even if ultimately they get nothing.

This is why high level Odyssey should be easier to form a party to enter but hard to beat. If people can't even make a party of 6/6 to try it they'll just give up completely. If they can at least enter the fight, but fail because the fight is too hard, they'll stay subbed and keep trying because they believe they have a chance to get it eventually.

It's very easy to form a party and go in. Problem is you are trying to form a party that has a very big chance of winning, while using specific strategy and that's completely different story.

Before you even form a group, you need clears to be able to lead your group in. You've been thwarted before you even reach the step you are representing as easy.


I know it would never happen, but I'd love to see a Vana'diel Census with info for Odyssey. I think people would understand the point being made here if they saw exactly how many people have R20 gear, but don't have the clears necessary to take a group into the zone.

So, they picked the shortcut (either bought their RP or had someone take them in), what is the issue here? It was their choice to go this route and not slowly climb each tier.

It's people fault they try to shortcut it. Clear everything in order and there is no problem then.

I have pointed out here several times that players should have to full clear for RP. Having to clear a boss only once as opposed to 4x isn't a shortcut, it's just reasonable. What is the logic for progressing NMs that you have no interest in RPing?


Also, I'm not sure why you'd point to this as the shortcut when people are throwing amps at 5% losses. The amount of RP that has come from failure in this event is actually so loud I think I'm going blind.

RPing with 5% is also bad, but it's not a point of discussion. Why would you clear other bosses that you are not interested in? Because it's how the event works lol. Being able to face A4 NM and enter it yourself is a REWARD for clearing lower tiers. It's like that since the beginning.

Sky gods? Kill NMs you are not interested in to get pop items, Then kill gods to fight Kirin.
Sea? Kill tier 1 gods, tier 2 gods, then you can fight Jailer of Love.
Einherjar? Clear all waves, then you can face Odin.
Vagary? Clear 3 zones, then you can pop Perfidien and Pluton.
Voidwatch? Clear lower tiers, then you can pop higher tiers.
Voiwalker? Kill lower tier until you get upgrade to fight next tier.
Omen? Kill each boss to fight Ou.
Pandemonium Warden? Clear Thu'ban, Sarama, and Shedu first.
Geas Fete? Clear lower tiers to get access to next tiers.

I could go on for a while with this.

remove 6 man restriction from points farming and bosses, same thing they did for omen.

Keep 1 per job and sub if you really want, it's a dumb arbitrary restriction that generally goes against the game design but was intended for this event for some dumb reason.

let us use points 1 for 1 on same tier for augmenting, trade up 5 for 1 or 10 for 1 to the next tier for augmenting.

People want to short cut it because this entire "progression" system is poorly made lol.

You need to clear all v0 for v1 access then all v1 for v2....that's several hundreds of thousands (I think?) of segs before getting access for all.

In a world that average pug farms 6-9k segs per run.

On the other hand if someone take you in the climbing cost is zero.

This isn't anywhere close to fair to early bird people who spent more segs than everyone else and climbed first. it also makes newer people wanting to do slow climb "the right way" impossible to find 5 other people to do it together because nobody wants to do lower level vergence anymore.

Basically SE wants to do MMO gear progression system in FFXI but completely *** up.

If SE wants player do the climb "the right way" they need to delete the shortcut to the top completely AND provide enough player pool for lower level vengeance by adding more incentives for v10 and lower.

I think Thory's idea that you need to kill an NM for RP may work. So people with v20 clears wanting easy RP can choose to kill v10 for people doing climbs, then everyone get people to pt with.

But it is 100% not player's fault. It's SE's.

For clarity, It's not a "dumb reason", It's a terrible attempt at avoiding to do some bare minimums to game balance. More of a naivety.

They don't want to nerf anything (stated officially) so they took a stab at trying something different. It doesn't work as intended (nothing does, they are incapable of critical thinking) They always fail to see the obvious outcomes. They're always asking and hoping, but the playerbase refuses to do anything but metagame.

You only need to clear v0,v5,v10,v15,v20. 5 clears * 17 nms = 85 clears = 255k segments(+losses). If you're able to win at a 50% rate, that's 510k segments. If your average pug farms 6k segments, and you go every other day, you're looking at about 6 months to clear everything. This is a gross oversimplification(even noobs won't be losing many V0 or V5, and lower tier V10 V15 are still quite easy.. so maybe it counterbalances the highest levels).

However, I don't think 6 months to clear the current cutting edge content is unreasonable for a casual player. Bumba has been available since March of 2021, meaning we've had 19 months with him. The issue is clearly not the progression speed or the number of segments, but player appeal. If every player was doing segments even once a week, they'd have close to 500k, meaning they'd be nearly done.

Clearly the gil was meant to be an incentive, but it's not enough, or people would be doing the content. Perhaps allowing you to buy the base gear with a V0 clear was a bad idea. I don't think skipping ranks is necessarily a problem, but it does clash with player mindset of anything below BiS being worthless. I think game population is a considerable factor, especially on small servers. Regardless, my overall take is that the effort:reward ratio isn't accurate for what players are willing to do. Few FFXI players are the type of people who will do content just to have cleared it(see how much of a failure Master Trials were.. only a handful of groups bothered until years after release when power crept made them no longer 'trials', and now we have people selling them in shout).

You are wrong here. Clearing V0 gives you access to any NM from the difficulty between V1 to V5 (including V5). Clearing V5 gives you access to V6-V10. So in reality you only need to clear V0, V5, V10, and V15 to get access to V20.


It is obviously my personal experience and is nowhere close to the statistical date, but I would disagree with that statement. From my experience, people do not want to lead events (cause this is hard work) and don't want to level and gear jobs that they dislike, even if this job is needed to clear the mentioned event. So some of them decide to play with Lady Luck and hope that someone else will carry them.

Don't take me wrong, I'm not saying that this is something wrong or needs to be criticized. We are grown-up people, everyone can do what they want. But I would say that in many cases this is the issue and not a badly designed fight (as mentioned earlier, it has a few problems that should be solved).


Well, I do agree with the idea of getting RP only for a kill, or for lowering the amount that you get from lost to just a little amount (booby prize).

*** it isn't Simon. You can't discredit something as a shortcut when you're complicit in the worst shortcut. We both know damn well that if SE rolled back RP from losses, you'd have a lot of work to do...

Not a lot actually. I cleared every V0,V5,V10,V15,V20 and we killed almost every V19 we were farming (we were doing V19A3>V19A1>v19A1 killing them 95% of the time) Only at the end when capped on some A1 and A2 we were using 5% to farm RP with regular amplifier at some A3 in the second fight, but that was maybe 20-30k RP total that I got like that.

EDIT: Also you are missing the point. Im not discrediting anyone for taking the shortcut, I'm discrediting people entitled to CRY about consequences of taking that shortcut. If you don't do it the proper way, then it's fine, but stop crying that you cant pop NM yourself to farm it after clearing like that.

On a side note about this. I think my biggest gripe about the current RP system is, due to certain job being more popular than another, the NM that provides RP for more popular job will be easier to find people to farm RP with and vice versa.

From my experience, kalunga RP and bumba RP are overwhelmingly easier to find people for, besides both uses slashing dmg making things easier, people also care about optimizing their heavy DD gears a lot more than non DD jobs like whm or geo.

But that means to people wanting RP for other less popular job, they'll have less people to pt with for their RP only because their set isn't popular, not because their NM is harder or easier.

This is not like ambuscade that your points can be spent on any job, or like in ffxiv that you grind one tier of raid for "currency" then the currency can be used on any job armor for that tier.

I think it's better if currency can be shared between jobs so people who main niche jobs can get gears as easily as popular jobs.
Or it needs a conversion system with penality.

Or if they really want to keep all RP separated, at least reduce total NM count in Odyssey to something like 6. Right now we have 17 NM total. With everyone wanting different NM in a MMO with only 300-1500 active players on most servers, the available pool of player for each NM quickly spread very thin between 17 NMs.

I don't think this cheapens the reward. Games with difficult raid like FFXIV works like this, aeonic also works like this. And it WAS the hardest content in 2015. But beating all the NM gave you reward for any job.

Overall I think people shouldn't suffer from less people to pt with only because their job is niche. That was the whole idea about RP conversion system.

I think that requiring you do RP on the associated NM has it's own purpose, it keeps the NM relevant, and if not for 5% nonsense it would have ensured people keep fighting the NMs. Reducing number of NMs isn't the best solution with that in mind. It'd be nice if you could convert RP to any NM of a lower tier, though.

Farming Kalunga to RP agwu doesn't seem equivalent if kills were needed. But, even if you can debate difficulty of Bumba vs some T3, going down a tier should always be at least relatively close.

Thanks for the info. Thorny did the math and even if it's 0->5->10 it's still over 250k seg investment to gain access to T4 r20. My point was that if options to spend 0 seg for T4 r20 exists, of course people will use 0 seg option. It's not player's fault, it's SE's fault to create that 0 seg option and/or making the 250k option such a long grind.



This is a bold assumption. Because this entire discussion started as I try to lead and organize pt, found problems with small player pool available as I did the actual leader's job myself.

Maybe there are many people that doesn't want to lead. But if they do then they are still very likely to spend huge amount of time (this is not "effort") looking for qualified people needing the same thing on some of the NM.