Dev Tracker - Discussion

People assume they know the fights they make and how they work. People talking mboze so we can se that as a spot to keep hitting on. SE didn't even know rampart was doing what it was doing but wanted to make sure they told players thats not that fight should work yet came out with no way to beat it themselves.( not saying they should nor do I care if they did come out with a way its been beat.) People are gonna find ways for fights that devs don't come up with or know about because more sample size from people than a small 3 person dev team.(This isn't hitting at your post just other post) People claim everyone just follows known strats they others have tried and work well yea they should and will do that because we dont have unlimited ways to keep *** with a fight with strats that don't work. SE time gated us from testing ***so why would people waste time finding ***out anymore once a known strat has worked?

Yay?


10 years after it became necessary, that ***is so *** irritating. The time it takes these people to fix things is simply unreasonable.

/retch

Guess I'll be skipping out on ambuscade this month. Happy new year lol.

It's not a job. Try letting go of the idea that you aren't wasting time if you use the best known strat. Guess what: it's a video game. You're wasting time no matter what. Embrace it.

The only thing in danger is your ego, and even that only if you're insecure. Losing can be just as fun as winning if you let it, if you play with no regrets and put forth your best effort right until the very end.

Granted, losing nonstop gets old. I'm not saying you should enjoy it to that extent, just that you shouldn't let fear of loss stop you from trying fun things in a video game.

Yeap, players playing more for fun/challenge than efficiency would up the value of the game a lot.

Can't remember. Were moogles annoying?

Granted that in theory I wholeheartedly support your message and have multiple times wrote similar ones through the years, well I was saying in theory.

This way of thinking is quite beneficial for everyone but I'm not sure we can say Odyssey is the best environment where this more lighthearted behaviour can take place, given all the bothersome limitations and annoyances that are to come after a "failure", compared to other events.

Take a failure in Dynamis Divergence.
Dang you won't be able to give it another try for 60 hours, but you didn't exactely have to "farm" stuff or spend time doing several other activities to prepare for it.

Take a failure in VD Ambuscade, you pretty much don't lose anything.

Or in Omen, at worst you'll just have to wait 20hrs for another attempt, or not even that if you saved KIs before.


Now take Odyssey. You had to spend 30+ minutes (sometimes on multiple, separated days if you were unlucky with your farms) to get Segments, then spend more time than usual (compared to other events) to find other people with the right jobs (different jobs!) and then imagine if you used a Mog Amplifier.
Now the last part thankfully got much better on V20 and especially on V25 (yai!) but imagine less-than-ideal people who were wiping on earlier Vengeance levels... I mean I dunno. I truly support the approach you promoted from the bottom of my heart but Odyssey is quite good, let's say, at making you sour after an unexpected failure.
Especially for situations where something completely beyond your control (like the many random mechanics implemented in the event) happened and caused your failure.


Can we really blame people who are getting mixed feelings from Odyssey failures, where only part of those feelings are represented by the enjoyment of trying something new, and the rest is pure frustration if not even rage?
I'm not saying this HAS to be how everybody feels about it, I'm just saying I'm having a difficult time pointing my finger at people who don't, or simply don't feel like "testing" things out as extensively as they did in other content.

if i am not mistaken back in Delva 1 / 2 when it was new i would main RDM and able to stun nearley every bad Abbility from nakuuls except Bird, is that still possible i havent played rdm in years going to focus on that after a couple of jobs just curious or do they have so much MACC oh ***...... No subjob....

Oh I forgot to do the thing

Yay moogles means so. many. sparks. And double accos. Finna make a trillion this month!

Just a general note, I love it when the servers re-up. Everything is so responsive for that first day or two.

Not sure where you got me saying losing isn't fun or a learning experience all I said was most are gonna follow strats given because why test ***if you only need one win? I don't mind fighting ***and finding new strat but I'm not everyone I'm also not gonna sit here like most and tell everyone to find a new strat while posting a strat that works for most people. I wish we had a way to test stuff outside of wasting kis tbh like 14 does but that would mean whole system changes.
Losing gets old for sure which is why people come here for strats on stuff. Hell someone on here just said war couldn't do mboze same person liked this post so who knows what people want.

Edit: Also if people wanted different strats you wouldn't be on here looking or talking strats you'd be out testing them and what not. Still don't think se beat a single one of these fights pass v10 at best.

I think I'm at the point in my life where losing is only fun when you can get right back into trying with little penalty. If each loss means you just threw away half an hour for the attempt plus half an hour for the KI then it'd get old really fast.

That's one reason I'm dreading some of the Gaol attempts we're eventually going to try. I'm not feeling good about my group's ability to one-shot these fights so two-moglophone fights that take 30 minutes per attempt and cost 6k segments? Oof that's a bit of a hard sell. So that's why I'm all about someone else finding a strat and then adapting it as best I can for my group.

Just wanted to call this out.
It's what draws me to Souls-like games or other RPGs - I can get right back up and keep trying (especially Malenia iykyk) If I can't progress with that one goal I can move on to something else in the game to play it and get better.

With time-gated stuff like this, especially double the gate (1 KI a day to get segments, plus X segments required to try with moglophones), it just loses its fun fast after continually losing.

It's not supposed to be fun. It's supposed to keep you doing it. And you do.

Bro what?
“Its not supposed to be fun”

I get for you its your literal job, but for the rest of us its a *** video game.

It is a system to make money that you happen to be allowed to play within.

Primary focus is retention and addiction (and compulsion), not entertainment.

https://www.thegamer.com/square-enix-nft-metaverse-fun-blockchain/

tl;dr- Yosuke Matsuda flat out said gaming wasn't for fun any more.

Yea gaming was and at most points is still fun but it hit a tipping point where people are now really good at video games now. So the focus was shifted to keeping players coming back for more and more.

just to clarify- I'm not saying I agree with that sentiment. I just feel its very important to know who we're all sending money to, and what their beliefs are because that will shape the future of SE products a lot more than any of us.

I think this is important to remember, people wouldn't be this pissed about Odyssea V25 ridiculousness if the cost of failure was low. Our most precious asset is our time, and failing an Odyssea V25 fight inflicts a massive time penalty. Most of us with jobs only have a few hours per week we can devote to this content, often with other people who are similarly constrained. Having an event that can just waste your time with an unlucky roll and then require even more time spent to try again is just asinine.

Losing can be fun if the game teaches you that you did something wrong and you adjust your strategy on future attempts as a result of the loss.

Losing isn't fun when you already know one of the very finite strategies to beat the boss, execute it well, and then lose anyway because the boss decided to put up an Aura or use a tp move at the wrong time and force a timeout or wipe and erase the last 15-30mins of time spent fighting.

Improvement through iteration can be gratifying, failure through random uncontrollable and unmitigatable *** is not.

that speaks volumes on how SE approaches "difficulty" nowadays- in some ways the game has grown to a point where traditional scaling has either been abandoned by the designers of these fights, or no longer understood how to apply it effectively....so instead they are reduced to removing tools from our box to "create" difficulty. And those random *** you auras/moments change content to no different than hoping you get the drop in trove. Sometimes the game says yes, sometimes it says no. (at least for such a large percentage of players that its hard to evaluate it otherwise)

I'm not really defending SE's behavior, but I think it's a stretch to act like people are losing because of one badly timed tp move or aura. I've still seen barely any discussion of 2 moglophone runs, much less 3 moglophone runs, and we all know there are potential gains to be had from them. People don't want to deal with the organization of using multiple jobs, but that's exactly what the content was designed for.

SE is still bad, in a lot of ways, but griping about limitations when not using everything available to you is a bit hypocritical.

The problem with doing 2-3 phone runs is having the right players with the right jobs and spreading the right buffs out between all the runs. Pickup groups especially are going to have a real hard time with this. Most groups are still trying to force out each win within one phone, and it can be done for at least five of the T3 V25s with varying difficulty.

MAB down aura on Ongo can cripple your damage output and essentially means you are timing out if you get it during the last 40%. Similarly, Attack Down from something like Ngai who only has 2-3 DDs on it at once will make the final 40% a struggle. Losing a primary DD due to a oneshot also typically means you will be timing out, as they are going to lack the necessary buffs (SV/CC songs, CC Chaos, etc) to contribute meaningfully. The amount of Regen these NMs get, in addition to how much we need to boost Attack in order to do any real damage to them, means the DPS check for a 1-phone fight is strict.

We are almost certainly fighting these things wrong from SE's perspective. But people are winning the fights nonetheless using these strategies, which will continue to be copied and used by other people because it's the only info out there on how to win.

The Aura rng and being hard blocked from finishing the fight it exactly what I was talking about and I'm not sure how whta I wrote could be twisted into anything else, but anyway.

You simply can't do anything if the NM decides to use the wrong Aura, or the Lion decides to full dispel your phone 1/2 melee softener team before it finishes its task. This isn't really about 1 phone vs 2 vs 3,because regardless of how many phones you use you're *** by:

-limited number of support jobs available
-you can only whittle each of these bosses down with one or two types of damage (for ongo, just 1)
-the Aura at 75 or 40% could just ***on you entirely. Getting it down to 75% with one phone, killing an add with the 2nd, and doing the last rush would be all well and good until your 40% Aura cripples what few remaining jobs you have left by the third entry by choosing the wrong Aura

I'm all for enforced diversity and difficulty and whatever but there's a certain point where layered rng isn't fun anymore. It has become their primary way of "balancing" the content that they decide is meant to last longer, like Sortie earrings.

I agree with you completely. I can't tell you how many runs ended with everyone saying "well we did everything we could and would have won if we didn't get x aura/y person didn't get oneshot/tp moves didn't stack ridiculously (Blistering Roar > Volcanic Stasis > Starting Serration)."

In our experience, however, runs did get progressively smoother and bosses would be brought to lower and lower HP %s as we made attempts. We did feel like we were getting better at the fight and tuning our setup each time. All this progression made the eventual win feel very rewarding, despite previous runs that ended due to absolute ***.

And I absolutely won't say that adaptation and minut eprogression absolutely can't happen in v25, the rng does have a significant impact on how much you can realistically adjust though which is my main point. And I, personally, don't find completely unavoidable and random events fun.

If there were a way to, say, rotate or reroll or disable the Aura temporarily via a proc or exploiting a weakness or something that'd be cool, but it is far more likely than not at this point that there isn't. A skill or knowledge based check like this would've been much more preferable.

I took last month off XI and played Elden Ring instead. I'm tempted to do it this month as well and just sign in for DM augs. Prime Weapons and new content need to get here fast because I'm losing interest.

Put these foolish ambitions to rest.