Dev Tracker - Discussion

I agree 100%. However, I also don't understand why SE just does not incentivize collaboration. There should be reasons for folks to go back, spend their segments and do Odyssey to help people who don't have clears.

They don't want to over incentivize mercing.

And they aren't creative enough to figure out a way to make players help without rewarding mercs (or overloading the queue/servers with nonstop entrances). So they just make it suck for everyone (bonus misery)

Any little thing you can think of just ends up with mercs going endlessly. Bonus phones. Free phones. More segs = free phones. More RP trades for free phones. Bonus exemplar is laughable.

"But why!??!11!"
It's the last stuff theyre ever making. It's gotta drag on. Sortie and Gaol.

For the bajillionth time, this conversation stemmed from someone quitting because they were "bored of repetitive non-challenging mundane or luck based content" (in simple terms). This led to V25, which led to RP farming, which led to amplifiers being a necessary crutch to help low-tier players gain RP, then if its an exploit or working as intended.

At the end of the day, this statement is true, and it shouldnt be:
A group killing any V25 NM with 100% kill rate will net less RP Per segment than a group dong the 6% timeout amplifier exploit.

You can lay blame to the pitifully low RP earned for a kill if you want, considering how much RP is needed to cap something, but that above statement should not be true. You shouldnt be earning greater RP per segment intentionally failing compared to actually completing the content.

I low key dislike the content that amounts to more than kill boss, loot drops.

This isn't true though, because every group uses an amplifier for every attempt. The group killing the V25 successfully will get the points for the amplifier and the points for killing the NM. The idea that they wouldn't use an amplifier just because you said so makes no sense.

yeah man. Every comparison you've made has assumed no amplifier use among those successful at winning.

The real truth is that the wins in Ody aren't for earning RP, they're for unlocking the tiers of the augments, and then the actual RP'ing is more connected to success in getting segments in volume. Considering how the tiers are so locked, I don't get the frustration.

The 6%'ers might earn RP "faster" in your model, but they still gotta get the wins to apply all that RP. And without dedication to getting those wins, that's a lot of wasted RP at the end.

Have you even done the content..? Amplifiers are a buff, period. You use them regardless. It costs 3000 amps to do a run, but only 1500 more to triple it. In some imaginary world where people voluntary refuse to use amplifiers, maybe you'd have a point, but the usefulness of amplifiers does not go down if you're actually killing the monsters.

Oh, I see

You're not making a coherent point, we have no way of knowing SE's intent when adding amplifiers, and even if they were added 'to help weaker groups get RP', obviously everyone is going to use an item that's a straight buff.

You're making a ridiculous strawman and quoting it over and over as if that changes anything about how ridiculous it is.

Dudes still missing the point and not understanding.

Killing V25 NM without the buff at 100% kill rate should NOT yield less RP than a group timing out 3+ times after dealing 6% damage with ammplifiers.

Its a *** very simple statement. Stop going back to "but they can use amplifiers too". Its irrelevant to the fact that failure has a greater reward than success.

No, you are repeating a clearly faulty premise. You've spent pages and pages saying that killing the boss is worth less than 6% cheesing, but it's not true. Amplifiers exist, so any discussion of the boss has to be premised on them existing.

Killing the boss *without* an amplifier is worth less than cheesing *with* an amplifier. But, because there's no magical force preventing you from using an amplifier then trying, you're still going to get more RP by using the amplifier *and* trying to kill the boss. You aren't even going to take more time doing so, because you have to sit in the arena for the full 15 minutes regardless.

A valid argument would be that the relative reward for trying to kill the boss is far too low when amplifier cheese exists. That is not the argument you've been making, you just keep spewing the same hyperbolic lie. The only conclusion I can come to is that you haven't even farmed the content yourself, or you fundamentally misunderstand how it works.

Yup they still dont understand what I'm sayin.

Again, amplifiers exist. It's a ridiculous premise, because there's no reason for the group trying to kill the boss to not use the amplifiers. It's like saying 'if you do a good run and throw out 2/3 of your rewards, you're worse off than someone who did a bad run and kept all their rewards'. No ***sherlock, but who is going to throw out their rewards to begin with?

I know exactly how this conversation started, and it's not what I asked.
I was wondering why you specifically are showing so much interest in this topic when you don't even know how things work.
I mean you're perfectly entitled to be so interested, I was just curious about the reason why this conversation gets you so incredibly engaged.

But this is wrong though. A group killing (or performing more than 5%) will always get more RP, given the same conditions for both groups.
We can argue the difference is too small, and I wouldn't be too much in disagreement with that, but the way you worded it is simply wrong.

He states that unamped kill should reward more than an amped cheese.

But then an amped kill would be ridiculous.

Amplifiers simply shouldn't exist imo, or should only exist as rewards for killing, not being buyable. (kill bumba 25 get a bumba cheese amp)

Nobody is having trouble understanding what he's saying, it's just a meaningless abstract complaint. Saying 'amplifiers reward far too much for the amount of effort' would be accurate and probably largely accepted here. Saying 'you get rewarded more for not killing the boss than killing it' just demonstrates that he can't work within a concept that actually exists in the game.

Amplifiers are a buff to RP gain, and everyone uses them every fight regardless. There's no point in what-ifing about if people didn't use them. The issue isn't even that amplifiers exist, it's that the proportional reward granted by them is too high. If they straight tripled what you earned, and 5%ers still got next to nothing, there wouldn't be any complaints.

This is you: (this is two days ago fyi, not 2021)

and this is also you:


Its exactly as I said above in my quote. You went from "a better reward for failed attempts" to "amplifiers are there everyone should use them". How is that any different from "help weaker groups get RP" to "they are literally mandatory if you want RP"

Yes. When everybody (JPs included) where whining terribly about the fact that RP farm was so slow and the grind was too big, instead of adding amplifier they should've simply raised the RP given, period.

But in that way they wouldn't have managed to give a purpose to the tri-runs which, at that point, have very little point to exist but since the introduction of Amplifier they suddenly became very useful to "charge up" the amplifier.


They probably couldn't find another "cool" thing to give to the tri-runs and that's why they used amplifier instead of raising the base RP? I dunno, maybe? I agree it was probably an error on their side but whatever, too late now.

Intention and outcome are different things. They are a buff, there is no reason not to use them. You seem fundamentally incapable of arguing the actual point, so this is a waste of time.

And were back to a group killing V25 should not yield inferior segs/RP than a group doing the 6% chaeese.

Maybe I need a tier list.

Heres how the segs/rp ratio should be:
S-tier 100% kill rate on V25 with amplifiers
A-tier 100% kill rate on V25 without amplifiers
A-tier ~50% kill rate on V25 with amplifiers (I had this at B, changed it to A)
D-tier 6% cheese with amplifiers

Heres how the seg/rp ratio actually is:
S-tier 100% kill rate on V25 with amplifiers
A-tier ~50% kill rate on V25 with amplifiers
B-tier 6% cheese with amplfiers
F-tier 100% kill rate on V25 without amplifiers

Ya see the difference? Considering we were on the topic of "is this how amplifiers were intended to work". You're looking at it from a nerf level, as in amplifiers should be nerfed, although its SE so every solution is nerf. I'm looking at the other end, the RP for killing without amplifier is ridiculously too low.

Its absolutely the most ridiculously simple statement:
"100% kill rate on V25 without amplifiers" should be higher than "6% cheese with amplifiers".

if an entire room cannot comprehend the speaker, the issue is not with the audience. At some point I hope you either find a new way to form your position, or just realize its not one everyone shares or even wants to share because its full of holes.

Except Eiryl, Dubaiii, Skald and Prothescar pretty clearly grasped what I'm saying, and there have only been <10 posters the last 2 pages so...
Sounds like you just dont want to understand cause you're afraid SE will read this and nerf it? Its already been established as meta. Nerfing it now would just draw ire from the community like the Sortie stage 4 bosses.

The issue is that you're arguing a completely irrelevant thing. Amplifiers are a gameplay buff. Thus, nobody intelligent will ever do any runs without amplifiers. To put it in your own style:

How it should be:
S-Tier: Killing mob with amplifier.
A-Tier: Nearly killing mob with amplifier.
B-Tier: Making a real attempt at mob with amplifier.
F-Tier: Doing 6% to mob with amplifier.

How it is:
S-Tier: Killing mob with amplifier.
A-Tier: Doing at least 6% with amplifier.

Your entire premise of 'but this is how it should be' while including runs without amplifiers makes no sense. Your issue isn't with amplifiers, it's with the ability to gain a large reward from minimal output. I don't even disagree with that point, you just seem to have a completely insane and irrational hatred for amplifiers themselves.

For anyone farming RP, I added full RP charts to these pages a while ago:
https://www.bg-wiki.com/ffxi/Category:Odyssey#Earning_RP
https://www.bg-wiki.com/ffxi/Moogle_Amp.

It shows the actual formula and amp bonuses as a quick lookup.


If you have access to V25, you should always be using amps. Period.

An amped V25 6% will yield 2,357 RP. Doing 3x for a V25 charge will get you 7,071 RP total. You can convert any RP back to segments that you don't need as well.

A charged V25 amp will give a bonus 6,984 RP on top of what you would normally get. So a charged V25 6% 4th run would be 9,341 RP.

That gives a total of 16,412 RP.
Costing 18,000 segments for the KI and amps, that comes out to 0.912 RP per Segment.

Doing the charge without amps yields (same conditions as above) 29 RP per fight. The 4th charged amp fight will give the same 9,341 RP.

Without 3x amps on the charge the total is 9,428 RP.
Costing 13,500 segments for 4 KI and 1 Amp, that's 0.699 RP per Segment.

The difference being 6,984 RP, and a cost difference of 4,500 Segments between no amps on charges and 3 amps on charges.

Yes
Commenting how timing out after doing 6% dmg with amplifiers rewards exponentially greater rewards than success without amplifiers is completely irrelevant to the topic of intended practical use of amplifiers upon implementation and present use.

The intended use of an amplifier is to increase your cost by 50% in exchange for assuring a higher RP return. At ranks below 25, this means you can help a friend for the base cost of 3000 segments without additional RP, or you can pay the full 4500 to get a run at the value that we are clearly balancing around. Obviously once R25 came out, there was never a reason not to use an amplifier because it returns more RP than it cost and you can convert it back to segments.

The intended effect of adding amplifiers was likely to increase incentive for trying bosses that much of the playerbase considered too hard. If losses still gave a meaningful reward, then people would be less likely to be demotivated and quit the content if it took 30+ attempts to actually beat the boss.

The actual outcome was that people found the easiest way to get RP and abused the ***out of it. I am, in no way whatsoever, defending this is valid. I reported it as a bug myself when it came out, and criticized it endlessly on the forums. You're nitpicking random words out of peoples' posts just to try to find something you can consider a win, on a topic that pretty much everyone agrees with you on to begin with.

Amplifiers were a clear buff, with no meaningful downside. If they had just implemented it by increasing the cost per run to 4500 and giving it to everyone, you'd have the same take on it and it would have (mostly) the same gameplay effect. Even SE is not stupid enough to think that a 50% cost increase for a 200%(at worst) reward increase isn't a buff, so I'm not sure why you're arguing as if it were a choice rather than a change.

I was correcting your math, because it was quite wrong on the charged values (as you literally asked for in the post).

If you're going to use numbers as a basis for a discussion, they should at least be correct.

Your post popped up as i was making mine, my reply wasnt directed at you. Sorry for that confusion.