Dev Tracker - Discussion

Ok so these upgrade items have a 0.1% drop rate
Lets presume you're able to kill one every 20 seconds. Respawn timer is still a thing.

~1000 kills per drop at 20 seconds per kill = 20,000 seconds = 333.33 minutes = 5 1/2 hours per drop on average

At NPC value, thats the equivalent of farming gil at a rate of 203k / hour. Thats already bad, and its only gonna get worse if the intended goal is to reduce the value of these items so people buy them from AH at a lower value than it available at NPC.

On top of that, this plan contributes to inflation because you've now removed a gil sink that removes gil from the economy. Gil sinks that remove gil from the economy are a good thing (as long as its controlled).

If SE lowered the price of these items "to make it more accessible to new players", they would simultaneously have to adjust a system that brings gil into the game (ie: Sheol farming). And SE's track record with BARANSU is not good.

Of all the Omen bodies I have, zero were obtained in Reisenjima Henge.

Hahahaha we're still talking about AF+3? I have accepted that Nynja and MT are never going to change their tune on this one, always an excuse of why nothing can be done.


Hey look at that, people brainstorming three very reasonable ideas that sure don't sound like they would destroy the game. Wasn't really that difficult.

A couple other ideas:

(1) If adjusting the price of the input materials (guild NPC mats) is not feasible because it would impact too many other synths, just make an alternate method to upgrade AF gear, like a new EX Artifact Token: Head (or Body, Hands, etc) that replaces the crafted items. Could pick whatever activity they want to encourage people to do as the source of these new items: drop in Omen like cards/scales, drop in new Limbus, Besieged points item, a monthly Ambuscade reward item like Metal/Fiber, etc...

(2) Or just change the AF upgrade requirements? SE does similar easing up on requirements quite regularly after an event/item has been around for a while, why not AF?
Current method: 50 cards + boss scale + crafted mats for a +3 body
New method: Two choices to upgrade to a +3, either
A: 20 cards + scale + crafted mats (i.e., just drop the card costs across the board, I doubled the amount you need for AF+2 as opposed to the current 5x more for +3), OR
B: 50 cards + scale but no crafted mats (i.e., if you farm up all the cards, you get a break on the material price)


While this is fundamentally true, I think the important point about AF+3 is that it's reasonable to think that it might soon become a lot more useful/relevant if that piece is needed to do further upgrades in connection with the new Limbus. Would make a ton of sense given that old Limbus was related to upgrading 75cap AF armor, and the dev team has talked about wanting to refresh AF gear.

Now, maybe that could be a reason the devs want AF upgrades to remain relatively expensive, to add a little grind or friction for people who see some fancy new AF+4 piece and then want to make an upgrade they never got around to taking up to the 119+3 level. But that hasn't been a reason cited by any of the people insisting AF is fine the way it is.

Personally, assuming further upgrades are related to Limbus, I'd advocate for streamlining the acquisition process to let people who didn't make AF+3 pieces years ago get on a more level playing field more easily. Makes things more fun for me when there's a mood of excitement because more people get to jump in right away and benefit from doing the hot new event. I'd rather have somebody who never bothered upgrading 75cap AF armor have some shortcut paths to get to the current max level, so they're more enthusiastic about doing new Limbus with me (and not just seeing it as a neverending slog that also requires them to grind through 9 year old content they skipped in order to enjoy the new event). Someone who prefers gatekeeping might not like that.

I literally stopped here and didnt read any further.

Please explain to me how new players will have an excess of sortie stones???

I play with plenty of people who didn't upgrade all their AF gear to +3, but who also do Sortie and DO have an excess of stones. I play with some who weren't very active players during Omen's prime, but have come back in the past couple years and have done a decent amount of Sortie.

If AF+3 gear becomes important to the new Limbus rewards (e.g., some piece that might have been a mediocre AF+3 becomes really great if you upgrade it to AF+4), those people would surely take advantage of any newly implemented shortcuts/alternative methods to get to the AF+3 stage.

And like I said, I'm all for including those people so Limbus feels more exciting for them and they want to do it with me. They aren't gonna be as hyped if they have to go back and do every existing step to go from level 50-something AF pieces to AF+3 before they see a benefit to potential Limbus upgrades. It has become a very bloated upgrade process that could use some streamlining.

And again, it was one possible idea that someone came up with here, tying acquisition to a current event that SE seems to want people to do. But your sole focus is tearing down any suggestions on how to make a possible improvement. Why are you so invested in "NO, THERE MUST BE NO CHANGE" (and if you're not, why you acting like it?)

It's not even that crazy to me that devs would encourage even relative newcomers to try to participate in some current content like Sortie, and not just spend their playtime like it's 2016 and they're farming Rem's tales and farming/buying a ton of upgrade items for the current kind of excessive 6-step process (AF, AF+1, Reforge/i109, i119 +1/+2/+3)

They already obviously set a bit of a baseline of not all that difficult to obtain gear:
1) Get to lv99 & some job points, do some Ambu for a weapon and "starter endgame" armor upgrades
2) Jump into some Odyssey by segment farming, then get some help doing v0 NM wins and you can buy base Odyssey gear to really get into stuff that's endgame quality.

Boom, you're at the level that you can reasonably engage with Sortie to kill some mobs, do some easy objectives, upgrade some Empy armor. You're not in the 8NM+Aminon crew at that point, but that doesn't mean this substantial group of players can't also enjoy playing the most current events. You really don't have to put them on a years long treadmill to get up to par, let people catch up and do the endgame stuff.

Sounds like its shitty gear they never needed from the get-go and they have better alternatives available, so why the need for it all of a sudden?

So pay the 6 mil entry fee to have access to upgrade the amazing +4 armor? whats the big deal. I've already gone over the numbers that you come out ahead on gil just from farming the cards needed to upgrade +2 and +3. Are you telling me that between Sheol (something your new player buddy will need to do to get segments anyways), Swarts farming in Omen (something your new player buddy will need to do to get cards to upgrade their AF anyways), weekly allowance, getting 6 million gil is a tall task??? This just reeks of lazyness above anything else. "I want my reward now without putting any work in".

And where did I say that? Is it because I said that gil sinks are necessary to keep the economy in check? Perhaps you missed the part where I said this:


So you're suggesting that upgrading AF 119+3 is useless and entirely skippable in the current meta, so why make a change to make equipment that is useless and skippable more accessible?

You want a helpful suggestion?
No ones mentioned adding these items to Gorpa in Mhaura.

But lets be honest, if they added it it will probably be 1 of each per month at 10-15k HM each. Theyre gonna park it in the same gil/HM ratio as Scoria and Marrow.


God forbid the people with 105+ skill in a craft who dont want/are unable to invest HALF A MILLION GIL to make an Escutcheon (someone correct me if that estimate is wrong) have some opportunity to make some gil with their craft. Think about the people who cant afford to spend 5 mil upgrading their AF from +2 to +3

It depends how you measure it and if you consider opportunity costs.
If you buy the spheres, it's about a billion last I checked.
If you consider that you could've sold the spheres, it's about a billion.
If you ignore opportunity costs, farm all the spheres yourself, and go a very cheap (read: extremely long) route, it will cost ~50m
If you consider the opportunity cost of your time, it's still hundreds of millions

Really depends what you're counting as a cost.


Nice strawman there. I didn't say it would destroy the game, I said it would be onerous for crafters and, frankly, the idea you quoted would completely toss the IDEA of selling any of the crafted items (Cypress lumber, Cyan Orbs, Ruthenium Ingots, etc.)


I think if the content comes out and the only reward is a way to upgrade +3 to +4, that would be one of the dumbest things SE could possibly do. I assume there will have to be some other rewards that aren't related to that, or some skip method.

That said...if a new player is returning and wants to +3 all their AF so they can get into Limbus, the cards will be 100000x as difficult to obtain compared to the absolutely paltry amount of gil it takes to upgrade. The fact that we're even entertaining the idea that the gil is the problem here is insulting.

Nynja already went over how just farming cards will pay for it and I also mentioned earlier that anyone with any motivation can easily make 1.5m/hr EASILY, probably closer to 2m/hr. The fact that you have to spend 3 hours getting the gil for a BiS piece for your job is not, in my opinion, a problem that SE needs to address.

I also pointed out that there are HUNDREDS of other items in the game that cost significantly more than this JSE, but people still pay it left, right, and center. There's no problem with that gear though?

25m for +10 HP, +3 acc, +3 atk, +2 STP, -1 DT on a ring
9m for +3 acc, +1 STP, +3 SB, +1 Regen on a ring
~35m for +3 stats, +3 MAB, etc. for JSE neck+2 compared to JSE neck+1
~60m for a 5% increase to stats on Su5 vs Su4
~25m for +5 Summoning Magic skill

...but yeah, the 5 WSD and 2s on Berserk from upgrading WAR AF body is the real problem here, what a ripoff!

The accusations of gatekeeping are hilarious and extremely poorly-founded too. Do you think my ownership of AF+3 is the thing I'm most proud of, like I sit around in town in full AF+3, so I can show it off? I'm hoping to gatekeep new players from getting AF+3 cheaper than I did, so that I can continue to be an elite on top of my mountain of AF+3, my crowning achievement?

Absolutely. I picture a Tarutaru wearing a mismatched set of various AF gear: DRK head, WHM body, NIN hands, SCH legs, RNG feet, sitting around Port Jeuno by the Rem's tale NPCs. Bazaar full of AF crafted materials for 1 gil each, but with capped gil so whenever the lowly peons try to buy it they come away with only sadness and jealousy.

I know your reading comprehension is better than that. I explained the possible need for it all of a sudden (even for the AF+3 pieces that are shitty): there's a good chance it will get further upgrades pretty soon with Limbus. So this would be a change implemented with that specifically in mind, or maybe as part of the Limbus rollout.

They're adjusting other stuff like Ambu armor item reduction this month, this is the same kind of thing to help people get the AF gear up to the stage where it's relevant for the biggest new content of 2025.


Not the ONLY reward, no. But further upgrades to AF wouldn't be terribly surprising as ONE OF the highly relevant rewards from the event. Just think about original Limbus, it had several rewards:
* AF armor upgrade items for all jobs
* Homam/Nashira armor sets
* Ancient Beastcoints to buy a variety of accessories

Would anyone really be shocked if we get modern versions of that stuff from new Limbus?

I don't think it would be to hard for them to boost AF+3
Just upgrade the stats to match the current stuff
Than add stuff like attack and -damage taken
Wouldn't be long before seeing everyone in AF+3 again

I fully expect every new event will have a JSE accessory to grind similar to sortie. This new Limbus? Left ear.

That's kinda how i think they should end gear
All JSE gear in each slot

Maybe something like 2 pieces of AF+3
1 piece of Relic+3
2 pieces of Empy+3

Gear swapping is the one unique and good thing about this game. No other game has the degree of horizontal progression this game has.... why would you not want that?

Personally betting on JSE belts or the return of rings

My money is on +1 versions of all the existing accessories from ABCs.

I had to go reread what I wrote, i don't think people are killing Omen bosses or doing an HTB every 20 seconds (can't even travel that fast!) It should not be a general drop, totally agree.


Its true that people pay disproportionately for items in this game, 10x the cost for 1% gain in performance. but in those cases many of those items have general utility and are best in slot for it.

The opportunity cost of upgrade AF+3 now is a time sink, a gil sink with often meh rewards. (I realize you can sell some items during the time sink portion - but I'm sure most people can find more effective ways to make money). That's not terribly great game design. Content becomes irrelevant when there are easier alternatives for better rewards.

Did you read the rest of the post, or just read that and stopped there? See, when I read part of a post and stop, I'll say so so there is no confusion. Yes, when I say I do that, I mean it. Clearly you did not continue reading because:

Soo yeah

We got Neo-Limbus and it gave us:
Central Temenos-Basement II - redesign of an existing area with 3 mediocre rewards (I dont remember these being bangers) and ABC's. Entry was tied to an item that dropped in old limbus at random or could be bought for 75 ABC's
Central Temenos-4th Floor II - a fight against Arch-Ultima with minor changes. Offered 2 new versions of the Nashira set, but upgrading required either having the old Nashira piece or having farmed two AF upgrade mats. None of the gear was "must have", except Shedir Serawheels because of unique effects that are still usable today.
CS Apollyon II - another redesign of an existing area with 2 mediocre rewards (the MAB earring wasnt better than Hecate's or Novio at the time) and one ok one. Same as Temenos Basement II, entry was tied to getting a metal chip from old limbus or paying 75 ABC's.
Central Apollyon II - a fight against Arch-Omega with minor changes. Offered two updated versions of the Homam set, with the same paths as the Nashira upgrades. The gear was sidegrades at best from what was already available, with a 1-2 unique items. Enif Legs are still used today as the best FC legs for 4 of those jobs (BLU can use Pinga).

Unfortunately you're ignoring the opportunity cost of your Omen farming with your analysis. If you solo farm Omen for that many runs and make all that gil, you're still faced with the choice of what to spend that gil on most effectively.

You're also making the assumption that all Omen farming is done solo. I know that when I came back to the game a few years ago after an 8.5 year break, I only did Omen with my linkshell and was lucky to get a single Detritus in a run.

I do like your idea of adding those items to monthly ambuscade rewards, though. It ultimately would not do much to decrease the price of the items but it would give a direct avenue to players to upgrade AF with little impact on gil economy in the game. +2 necks and SU5 attempts are the culprit of the vast majority of that impact.

I don't know why this topic is still going on, but two things can be true.

People can skip the upgrade and the game will go on perfectly fine.

It would provide another way for new or returning players to upgrade their gear if they made it cheaper. As is, it isn't that, because the opportunity cost is too high to be worthwhile.

Was bored, so I made a grid based on my own experience with each job and armor piece and whether it was make or break/needed to invest the money into AF+3. Didn't add any of the asterisk pieces to the "Required Make Count" (just sums up "Yes" in that row) since those are what I deem YMMV based on what else you have (these are debatable across the board tbqh, but my opinion***); if you're a minmaxer, you make the piece. If you're a job minimalist/good-enougher-for-things you skip it.



I could only really justify maybe 3 jobs that would require you to make 3 or more pieces of AF (18M in mats or so), RDM, DNC, and SCH (and DNC is debatable tbh). Could argue for many of these pieces going one way or the other, and some jobs you could even skip the +3 path entirely, based on how far along in other endgame gearing you've gotten. There's also a number of competing options for certain slots (some I mentioned, many I did not) that one could argue renders making some of these "Yes/Yes*" pieces unnecessary. YMMV, just my thoughts.

Idk, I don't think the expense for AF+3 is really that awful when you consider currently what you need at +3 (not talking about future-state +4 AF "what if" projections). It's expensive for sure, but not that bad?

edit: COR body is a mistake, should be Yes* with the Nyame caveat (and Ikenga's R25-30 competes with it as well). Oversight

edit2: NIN feet addendum: Feet: Magic Burst NIN, +2 is sufficient for Nighttime movement

Great job, you've described the flow chart as it exists in its current state. No one is debating that.

If you're implying that the opportunity cost dilemma is solved here. You're missing the step where you compare the specific AF piece against all of the other possible upgrades that you could put you're gil towards.

Five million gil is not a lot, nor is it at all difficult to obtain. I'm literally sitting on 1.9 billion gil, I have a deactivated mule on Asura with something like 400 million gil incase I need to pick up stuff from the black market, and I bought a Kraken Club just because I wanted to spend something. I'm not saying this to flex any in game wealth, because there are plenty of people here with a lot more than that, I'm saying this to point out how absolutely insignificant 5 million gil is.

If were going the RMT route of equating the value of gil to RL money, 5 million gil is something like $2-2.50 USD.

The people complaining about how expensive 5 million to upgrade a piece of AF 119+2 to 119+3 was either talking about how Gandring (~70 million gil) and Asn. Gorget +2 (~45 million gil) at R25 (~50 million gil) were necessary to cleave Omen in 15 minutes, or they were very *** silent and had nothing to say in that discourse (or missed it entirely, but I can assure you this conversation did come up, its where I got the 7 / 11 swarts per run numbers)

Very nice!

Would the GEO head be worth using for Cardinal Chant (presumably situationally depending on what bonus you are after)?

Neo-Limbus (first attempt) was a huge disappointment, and I certainly hope they wouldn't try something like that again. Nor does it look like they are, no reason to completely shut down the old event while they update it if it was something as low effort as that. This really does feel like a large scale reworking along the lines of Dynamis - Divergence.

EDIT: And the more I think of it, Neo Limbus was really more akin to Dreamlands Dyna zones, as an expansion to just add a small number of higher level zones to the original event.

And what did we get as rewards in OG Dyna and Dyna D? They mapped pretty cleanly from the original event to a corresponding reward in the new version.

Dynamis - Original versus Divergence
Original: Relic Armor NQ drops, -1 armor from Dreamlands to make +1s
Divergence: Relic Armor +2/+3 upgrade item drops (shards, voids, cards/medals)

Original: JSE accessory drops (Dreamlands zones)
Divergence: JSE neck related drops (Moldy necks to make them, heroism crystals), and obtain RP for equipped JSE necks via kills (similar to Dyna 2.0 Relic+2 augments)

Original: Base Relic weapons, and related currencies
Divergence: Moldy weapons to make Su5 JSE weapons, and related currencies (heroism crystals), and obtain RP via kills

Really the only rewards Divergence added that did not correspond to something in OG Dyna were (1) Volte armor, and (2) when they got around to adding wave 3 they added Astral Detritus. The Detritus was more because they felt they had to make some more sources of it than only the aging Omen event, to increase supply for all the REMA upgrades that needed it. Reasonable to me that they'd add it to the big new event to further incentivize people to do Divergence, as opposed to sticking it somewhere else like Ambuscade point rewards (or just leaving it Omen only and letting the free market do its thing, but they haven't taken that approach in years since they do things like add RME weapon currencies/materials to Ambuscade as well as leaving them in the original events)

The only thing OG Dyna had that wasn't replicated in Divergence was the random drops like Griffon Hides, Wootz Ore, and the like - but with all the other heroism/medal/card drops in Divergence, I could see leaving those off just due to the unnecessary clutter.

Limbus - original rewards vs. possible new rewards
So yeah, if new Limbus takes a similar approach of revamping the original event, it would be pretty logical if they made modern versions of the drops from old Limbus:

Old Limbus: AF+1 armor upgrade items
New Limbus: items to further upgrade reforged AF armor

Old Limbus: Mega-boss armor sets (Homam/Nashira and the lv99 equivalents)
New Limbus: New armor sets from Mega Bosses or other NMs

Old Limbus: Accessories via Ancient Beastcoins, plus some new accessories dropped in the lv99 basement zones
New Limbus: New accessories via some currency, or as direct drops (Brutal Earring +1?). Maybe some additional accessory drops too (like JSE pieces as some here have mentioned?)

Edited;
I originally said no, cause that was the answer before Empyrean +3, that answer may be different now.

If you take the "top tier" burst set in the guide and sub the af+3 hat, it might win. It zero MAB so it's a hard maybe.

51 MAB or 22 MBB II

(But in general, no one has time to bother setting up cardinal chant, so it's almost certainly still no, even if on paper it's better)

Nice list there, man. I'd like to add some extra notes.

THF feet also has Flee duration +18. Not sure about anyone else, but if I'm doing things on the job, I want that extra Flee.

DRK hands augments Weapon Bash, allowing you to easier skillchain with yourself for a Drain 3 Magic Burst.

COR head, hands and feet are still the best magic accuracy for Light/Dark Shot, unless there is something better? The legs are probably less useful as it gets easily replaced with better Snapshot gear later.

This looks like you put effort into it. Therefore it is now gospel for the lazy. Thank you for your efforts on our behalf.