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String Theory: A Puppetmaster's Guide *NEW*
By Afania 2020-03-27 15:56:30
Is that even viable? Wouldnt BRD have like barely 1000 acc with non ilvl weapon even with really high accuracy gear? That seems too low even with 2 madrigals. It probably wouldnt be even better damage vs Carn/Tauret.
I had something like 1020 in WS set at one point because all my DM augment isn't giving me any acc. With madrigals X2 I can get to 1500+ if I remember correctly.
So 1000 acc is probably okay if you use some minor acc swaps.
WS gets +100 accuracy on first hit, which is only hit that matter for SB. 1000 acc in TP set would mean floored accuracy even with 2 madrigals.
If my WS isn't capping acc I can tell with TP return, lol.
And yes WS acc still matter because TP return.
I said 1000 acc with minor swaps. 1050 acc can cap VD with 2 madrigals, so 1000 won't be floored, lol.
 Asura.Sechs
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10086
By Asura.Sechs 2020-03-27 15:57:59
Theoretically? Yes.
Realistically? No.
You need a lot of accuracy buffs, more than the other DDs will.
You would need a pretty limiting and fixed combination of jobs to allow for the necessary acc buffs the BRD needs to be used and not go to waste on the other jobs.
All of this to allow one job (BRD) to use the TPbonus Centovente and Mainhand what, R15 Twashtar?
I do have an R15 Twash and a Centovente but haven't done a lot of tests on BRD. Imho it's just not realistically viable nor efficient to go that path on stuff like Wave2+ Dynamis
A BRD Spreadsheet would help calculating all these things (hint hint :-P)
By Crossbones 2020-03-27 16:00:20
Yo everyone talking about how much acc brd needs and can't use cento just stop talking right now. This ***is painful as *** to read to me.
By SimonSes 2020-03-27 16:00:52
Cento offhand is laughably easy to pull off on BRD for like all content pretty much. I don't use double madrigals for anything, BRD has access to really high acc through gear. Only place this becomes a problem is in wave 3 and some VD ambu months. Don't give a ***about PUP just wanted to put that out there since BRD was mentioned lol.
Have you actually parsed that accuracy or just eyeballing?
How much accuracy you have with Cento in your TP set?
BLU with Thibrion has 1120-1200 accuracy and it's sometimes questioned for accuracy and 1000 accuracy BRD Cento is not a problem and doesnt need 2nd madrigal? Sounds silly, but I am open for proofs.
 Asura.Eiryl
By Asura.Eiryl 2020-03-27 16:03:32
This is very much off the rails in the context of valoredge yo
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By Crossbones 2020-03-27 16:03:58
Yes I parse that ***why would I say anything otherwise. I literally never use 2 mads ever, eveeeerrrr. Cap acc on all content except wave 3 (prob want a second mad then i guess? I just swap to carn for that so not to tank PT dps).
This my stabbin set:
head="Aya. Zucchetto +2",
body="Ayanmo Corazza +2",
hands="Volte Mittens",
legs="Aya. Cosciales +2",
feet="Bihu Slippers +3",
neck="Bard's Charm +2",
waist="Reiki Yotai",
left_ear="Suppanomimi",
right_ear="Telos Earring",
left_ring={name="Moonlight Ring",bag="wardrobe2"},
right_ring={name="Moonlight Ring",bag="wardrobe3"},
back={ name="Intarabus's Cape", augments={'DEX+20','Accuracy+20 Attack+20','"Dbl.Atk."+10','Phys. dmg. taken-10%',}},}
By Crossbones 2020-03-27 16:06:09
*** it PUP forum is now BRD and RUN forum. Get used to it nerds!
By Aerix 2020-03-27 16:13:12
This is very much off the rails in the context of valoredge yo
If there are WHM and BRD available for heals/buffs I normally wouldn't be tanking with my maton (Goblin Ambu being the exception). There just isn't much point even if it's theoretically possible.
PUP tank is useful and great because you can completely skip bringing BRD, WHM and rarely even GEO and instead fill those party spots with PUPs, SMNs, BSTs, BLMs, CORs or RNGs. Or with Trusts if you're just lowmanning all the way.
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By SimonSes 2020-03-27 16:18:52
Yes I parse that ***why would I say anything otherwise. I literally never use 2 mads ever, eveeeerrrr. Cap acc on all content except wave 3 (prob want a second mad then i guess? I just swap to carn for that so not to tank PT dps).
This my stabbin set:
head="Aya. Zucchetto +2",
body="Ayanmo Corazza +2",
hands="Volte Mittens",
legs="Aya. Cosciales +2",
feet="Bihu Slippers +3",
neck="Bard's Charm +2",
waist="Reiki Yotai",
left_ear="Suppanomimi",
right_ear="Telos Earring",
left_ring={name="Moonlight Ring",bag="wardrobe2"},
right_ring={name="Moonlight Ring",bag="wardrobe3"},
back={ name="Intarabus's Cape", augments={'DEX+20','Accuracy+20 Attack+20','"Dbl.Atk."+10','Phys. dmg. taken-10%',}},}
That puts your Canto at ~1000-1010 accuracy (depends if you have 25 or 15 accuracy on Linos). If that's enough to cap accuracy on wave 2 or most VD ambuscades with just one madrigal, then I am surprised.
EDIT: Actually 990-1000, because I noticed you are missing 10 acc on cape still.
By Ruaumoko 2020-03-27 16:22:47
That said, PLD and RUN are the de facto tanks of the game no matter the content. This is undisputable.
Personally, I don't consider PUP a "true" tank because that's just a single aspect of the many things in the job's kit (and the other aspects are just underrated). However, due to its mechanics and frequent use in lots of content it almost definitely is more of an actual tank than WAR or the like.
Similarly, BLU is definitely capable of fulfilling a proper tank role due to its kit, but nobody actually bothers with it because it takes too much effort. Annoying to gear unlike PUP, takes more effort to play than RUN&PLD and isn't as faceroll/efficient as omgwtfbbq DPS from DD tanks.
NIN has a decent kit, but due to the lack of proper updates it has a hard time with currently available content and the meta in general. Considering SE caved to the old NIN tank meta and added Yonin/Nagi/Fudo Masamune over the years the job definitely deserves to stand alongside PLD and RUN as one of the game's central tanks.
On the other hand, holding hate purely via DPS typically falls apart in any content that isn't zergable. WAR, DRK and some other jobs are capable of tanking in the current meta only because our current/past content is mostly ridiculously easy and our gear just keeps improving as SE releases more and more of it without hard content to match. MNK is kinda in the same boat, but also not because of their high HP and ability to limit TP moves. But they aren't suitable to tank all content, either.
Fact is, generally nobody uses DDs as their main tanks when pushing new and difficult content, although MNK had some exceptions. For example, RUN, PLD and PUP were all used for the first Wave 3 clears after release, albeit for different purposes. Obviously once things are on farm this often changes, but I still see Hybrid DDs get destroyed by Volte Commanders or Wave 2 and 3 mega bosses.
50% DT and MEVA as your only (major) mitigation tools will only take you so far. These days it's basically on par with what RUN already uses most of the time anyway, so it's natural that higher DPS jobs would eventually take over to clear content even faster. But whenever SE releases new content that can't simply be zerged and actually has dangerous mechanics the tank meta reverts to traditional setups pretty quickly.
Furthermore, tanking content like WoC, Omen or Ambu bosses that jobs like RDM or BLU have sometimes already solo'd doesn't make certain jobs actual tanks. It just means that mechanics have become so easily ignored or dealt with that all you need to hold hate is a good Hybrid set with a solid backline. WAR was only recently put into the fortunate position to have gotten all the ideal new gear to build the perfect Hybrid set. This makes it an extremely useful and efficient DD tank, but as soon as it loses its ability to keep hate by dealing damage this entire setup falls apart. Even DRK has better hate tools when damage is not an option.
However, none of these jobs can perform or last very long if they lose all of their buffs or if the healer happens to get killed/CC'd. PLD, RUN, PUP and BLU actually have some very solid staying power even while the backline has to recover and can still retain enmity during that time. Oh wow... you might have just spared me a lot of effort in articulating some of the points I was going to make. You hit so much on the head in this passage. The brutal truth is that RDM/BLU/MNK/DRK are all DDs who just happen to be able to take some hits, they're not true tanks who can reliably do everything a tank is meant to. I'll elaborate on this of course but I'm really looking for others to contribute.
My original request might have gotten lost in the shitstorm so here it is again. Does anyone want to contribute their thoughts on PUP tanking? If so, PM me and we'll discuss it further.
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Asura.Sechs
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10086
By Asura.Sechs 2020-03-27 16:39:41
BLU with Thibrion has 1120-1200 accuracy and it's sometimes questioned for accuracy and 1000 accuracy BRD Cento is not a problem and doesnt need 2nd madrigal? Sounds silly, but I am open for proofs. You're perfectly on point, and honestly most of the time I don't even have a single Madrigal, just Marcato Honor March.
That's nowhere near enough even with my accuracy set and sushi.
...well of course it depends on the content we're talking about.
This is even more of an issue for BRDs who mainhand Naegling btw (shame on them!!)
(depends if you have 25 or 15 accuracy on Linos) Unless you're taking into consideration the acc from DEX+8 in the third slot, but that's such a huge sacrifice for ~5 Acc.
Either way I just wanted to say the cap on +Acc alone is 20.
Cap on Acc/Att is +15
By SimonSes 2020-03-27 16:40:55
That said, PLD and RUN are the de facto tanks of the game no matter the content. This is undisputable.
Personally, I don't consider PUP a "true" tank because that's just a single aspect of the many things in the job's kit (and the other aspects are just underrated). However, due to its mechanics and frequent use in lots of content it almost definitely is more of an actual tank than WAR or the like.
Similarly, BLU is definitely capable of fulfilling a proper tank role due to its kit, but nobody actually bothers with it because it takes too much effort. Annoying to gear unlike PUP, takes more effort to play than RUN&PLD and isn't as faceroll/efficient as omgwtfbbq DPS from DD tanks.
NIN has a decent kit, but due to the lack of proper updates it has a hard time with currently available content and the meta in general. Considering SE caved to the old NIN tank meta and added Yonin/Nagi/Fudo Masamune over the years the job definitely deserves to stand alongside PLD and RUN as one of the game's central tanks.
On the other hand, holding hate purely via DPS typically falls apart in any content that isn't zergable. WAR, DRK and some other jobs are capable of tanking in the current meta only because our current/past content is mostly ridiculously easy and our gear just keeps improving as SE releases more and more of it without hard content to match. MNK is kinda in the same boat, but also not because of their high HP and ability to limit TP moves. But they aren't suitable to tank all content, either.
Fact is, generally nobody uses DDs as their main tanks when pushing new and difficult content, although MNK had some exceptions. For example, RUN, PLD and PUP were all used for the first Wave 3 clears after release, albeit for different purposes. Obviously once things are on farm this often changes, but I still see Hybrid DDs get destroyed by Volte Commanders or Wave 2 and 3 mega bosses.
50% DT and MEVA as your only (major) mitigation tools will only take you so far. These days it's basically on par with what RUN already uses most of the time anyway, so it's natural that higher DPS jobs would eventually take over to clear content even faster. But whenever SE releases new content that can't simply be zerged and actually has dangerous mechanics the tank meta reverts to traditional setups pretty quickly.
Furthermore, tanking content like WoC, Omen or Ambu bosses that jobs like RDM or BLU have sometimes already solo'd doesn't make certain jobs actual tanks. It just means that mechanics have become so easily ignored or dealt with that all you need to hold hate is a good Hybrid set with a solid backline. WAR was only recently put into the fortunate position to have gotten all the ideal new gear to build the perfect Hybrid set. This makes it an extremely useful and efficient DD tank, but as soon as it loses its ability to keep hate by dealing damage this entire setup falls apart. Even DRK has better hate tools when damage is not an option.
However, none of these jobs can perform or last very long if they lose all of their buffs or if the healer happens to get killed/CC'd. PLD, RUN, PUP and BLU actually have some very solid staying power even while the backline has to recover and can still retain enmity during that time. Oh wow... you might have just spared me a lot of effort in articulating some of the points I was going to make. You hit so much on the head in this passage. The brutal truth is that RDM/BLU/MNK/DRK are all DDs who just happen to be able to take some hits, they're not true tanks who can reliably do everything a tank is meant to. I'll elaborate on this of course but I'm really looking for others to contribute.
My original request might have gotten lost in the shitstorm so here it is again. Does anyone want to contribute their thoughts on PUP tanking? If so, PM me and we'll discuss it further.
No... WAR/MNK/DNC/DRK are DD jobs who can happen to be able to take some hits etc. but arguable DRK can sub /blu and then his only downside would be being Dispelled. You are self sufficient with Catastrophe heals, you can build hate without damage with stun and /blu spells, 6000-9999HP + Dread Spikes makes you invincible against regular hits and all TP moves beside few doing %HP damage. That much HP also reduces enmity loss from being hit by a lot.
Now BLU can easily be what you call a true tank. You have native heals, aoe hate spells and self cast spells for enmity similar to Foil (but even better probably), all kinds of spells to mitigate damage and buffing your defense or magic defense. Its just like Aerix said, it requires much more work to pull off than PLD, RUN or PUP and on anything serious you would probably need to have your own group, because you wouldnt convince anyone to take you as tank on BLU. The biggest disadvantage of BLU tank is lower HP and only 57% DT with Barrier tusk, but without phalanx or 50% with phalanx.
By Crossbones 2020-03-27 16:41:28
Ya but with songs I have over 1300 offhand acc, that's way more than enough for all but the highest tier content. Even in master trials fighting yag with twash/cento I used 1 madrigal and capped acc (not sure if those are even high eva).
Also BRD naegling best BRD :3
Asura.Sechs
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10086
By Asura.Sechs 2020-03-27 16:46:38
The biggest disadvantage of BLU tank is lower HP and only 57% DT with Barrier tusk, but without phalanx or 50% with phalanx. I would also put the lack of Enmity+30% buff that tanks (and lolNIN) have.
It's not something vital I guess, but then again it *is* a loss compared to "proper" tanks, no?
By Aerix 2020-03-27 16:48:07
Oh wow... you might have just spared me a lot of effort in articulating some of the points I was going to make. You hit so much on the head in this passage. The brutal truth is that RDM/BLU/MNK/DRK are all DDs who just happen to be able to take some hits, they're not true tanks who can reliably do everything a tank is meant to. I'll elaborate on this of course but I'm really looking for others to contribute.
It's true BLU can be a bit iffy depending on the situation, but they have all the proper hate tools and much more mitigation and sustain than other jobs (Occultation, Cocoon, Harden Shell, Saline Coat, Barrier Tusk, Mighty Guard, Magic Fruit, Winds of Promy.) that doesn't really rely on a backline. It's definitely demanding, but if someone really put their mind to it they could probably tank even outside of the current meta, unlike DD tanks.
My original request might have gotten lost in the shitstorm so here it is again. Does anyone want to contribute their thoughts on PUP tanking? If so, PM me and we'll discuss it further.
I normally wouldn't mind contributing, but I have to pass on recording audio.
By SimonSes 2020-03-27 16:52:39
Ya but with songs I have over 1300 offhand acc
Wave 3 requires like 1600 acc or more. Idk requirements for Wave 2 and wave 1 tho. Most Reisenjima/Escha helms require like 1600-1700 I think. Afania is saying he needs 2 madrigals with 1050 acc to cap on most VD ambu.
So I wonder how you can be capped with your 1 madrigal and 990-1000 accuracy..
サーバ: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2255
By Odin.Llewelyn 2020-03-27 16:56:36
I hate PUP and I feel bad for them atm.
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By Crossbones 2020-03-27 16:59:59
If the ambu is really evasive I bring a RDM for distract and that nullifies the problem. RDM is an amazing job and DPS so it's really no loss at all to bring one, rather take them over a melee 90% of the time. For wave 1-2 and the bulk of ambu really don't need more than 1 madrigal. Like I said when we do wave 3 I swap to carn for dps (totally gross) but that's about it. Like on the lamia and meebles ambu their evasion is not high at all and that goes for a lot of months really. When people say 2 madrigals it really surprises me that people use that but hey I guess everyone uses different setups to some extent.
By ksoze 2020-03-27 17:09:17
I normally wouldn't mind contributing, but I have to pass on recording audio.
Love the vids you did, any new ones planned for pup?
By Afania 2020-03-27 17:36:59
Ya but with songs I have over 1300 offhand acc, that's way more than enough for all but the highest tier content. Even in master trials fighting yag with twash/cento I used 1 madrigal and capped acc (not sure if those are even high eva).
Also BRD naegling best BRD :3
You need 1500+ in VD, sometimes more.
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By Afania 2020-03-27 17:39:49
If the ambu is really evasive I bring a RDM for distract and that nullifies the problem. RDM is an amazing job and DPS so it's really no loss at all to bring one, rather take them over a melee 90% of the time. For wave 1-2 and the bulk of ambu really don't need more than 1 madrigal. Like I said when we do wave 3 I swap to carn for dps (totally gross) but that's about it. Like on the lamia and meebles ambu their evasion is not high at all and that goes for a lot of months really. When people say 2 madrigals it really surprises me that people use that but hey I guess everyone uses different setups to some extent.
Your setup pretty much lock the DD slot to a RDM.
I like to keep DD slot flexible so people can play whatever they want.
By Crossbones 2020-03-27 17:57:06
Yeah I know you need it SOMETIMES, that's why I said like 10x, but the vast majority of the time you do not. I think a RDM adds way more to any fight than a DPS that's why I use em over another DPS, but like I said everyone tries diff strats and setups so that's fine. This month for example I do RDM BRD GEO RUN COR WHM, can probably trade the geo for a cor if you want. Not saying it's the best or most optimal strat but that's the one I like to use for this month. Anyways now that BRD stuff has been squared away let's let this forum go back to whatever the hell it is PUPs talk about all day (I honestly don't know).
By Aerix 2020-03-27 20:04:08
Love the vids you did, any new ones planned for pup?
Thanks! Yes, I have a few more planned. Just have to find the time to record them.
By Aerix 2020-03-27 20:44:59
Ruaumoko, you may want to consider having a discussion with someone who takes playing PUP seriously and would like to see PUP used more in endgame content as opposed to someone who "plays PUP for fun."
I'm not denying the fact that Aerix is a fabulous PUP (he's at least Top 3 PUPs on Shiva.) But he's stated on another thread that PUP is a "for fun" job for him.
If you're looking for someone who takes the job seriously to have a PUP related discussion with, Malthar, Onionknight, and Urmom are people I would recommend you hit up. All are on Shiva. I'd discuss as well, but I hate the sound of my own voice.
Dafuq. Since when does having fun with a job preclude one from taking it seriously?
Not that I want to fight over a spot on the video, but I'm pretty sure I've contributed an equal amount or more to PUP discussion and research than those three people you've listed. Not sure what counts as "serious" in your book if that doesn't.
Just because I think PUP can contribute more to the endgame meta than simply tanking doesn't mean I don't want to see it used more often. I think I already proved that with my Automaton Skillchain strategy and video.
By Felgarr 2020-03-27 21:02:02
Ruaumoko, you may want to consider having a discussion with someone who takes playing PUP seriously and would like to see PUP used more in endgame content as opposed to someone who "plays PUP for fun."
I'm not denying the fact that Aerix is a fabulous PUP (he's at least Top 3 PUPs on Shiva.) But he's stated on another thread that PUP is a "for fun" job for him.
If you're looking for someone who takes the job seriously to have a PUP related discussion with, Malthar, Onionknight, and Urmom are people I would recommend you hit up. All are on Shiva. I'd discuss as well, but I hate the sound of my own voice.
Dafuq. Since when does having fun with a job preclude one from taking it seriously?
Not that I want to fight for a spot on the video, but I'm pretty sure I've contributed more to the PUP discussion and research than those three people you've listed. Not sure what counts as "serious" in your book if that doesn't.
You yourself said back in the March update thread that PUP is a "fun job" for you, did you not? To be blunt, I was very disappointed you even said that in the first place and I wasn't the only person with that opinion on Shiva.
I, for one, trust Aerix quite a bit. However, you are foolishly misinterpreting the words "for fun". You can play a job "for fun" and for "endgame content" and still wholeheartedly be excellent, dedicated and continue to set higher and higher goals for your "fun" job.
For "fun" does not mean "lazy" or "casual" or "too relaxed" about participating in end game content.
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サーバ: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1328
By Shiva.Siviard 2020-03-27 21:11:39
Ruaumoko, you may want to consider having a discussion with someone who takes playing PUP seriously and would like to see PUP used more in endgame content as opposed to someone who "plays PUP for fun."
I'm not denying the fact that Aerix is a fabulous PUP (he's at least Top 3 PUPs on Shiva.) But he's stated on another thread that PUP is a "for fun" job for him.
If you're looking for someone who takes the job seriously to have a PUP related discussion with, Malthar, Onionknight, and Urmom are people I would recommend you hit up. All are on Shiva. I'd discuss as well, but I hate the sound of my own voice.
Dafuq. Since when does having fun with a job preclude one from taking it seriously?
Not that I want to fight for a spot on the video, but I'm pretty sure I've contributed more to the PUP discussion and research than those three people you've listed. Not sure what counts as "serious" in your book if that doesn't.
You yourself said back in the March update thread that PUP is a "fun job" for you, did you not? To be blunt, I was very disappointed you even said that in the first place and I wasn't the only person with that opinion on Shiva.
I, for one, trust Aerix quite a bit. However, you are foolishly misinterpreting the words "for fun". You can play a job "for fun" and for "endgame content" and still wholeheartedly be excellent, dedicated and continue to set higher and higher goals for your "fun" job.
For "fun" does not mean "lazy" or "casual" or "too relaxed" about participating in end game content.
As you can see, I deleted my earlier posts. I made them prior to reading all of the drama from today. BIG oops on my part.
I've already spoken to Aerix in game and told him "my bad".
Aerix, when it comes to using PUP as a DD is by far the best on Shiva. I haven't seen him using his PUP as a tank before so I can't personally say anything about him with regards to that. When I use PUP, it's almost exclusively as a tank, since my DD setup isn't that great. However, Aerix's commentary (along with others in the thread) is accurate with regard to using PUP as an endgame tank.
 Cerberus.Jiko
サーバ: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1741
By Cerberus.Jiko 2020-03-27 21:13:15
This coronavirus quarantine is making the pup forum pretty spicy, it seems...
サーバ: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 382
By Shiva.Carrelo 2020-03-27 21:18:35
＾-＾)ノ Can vouch for Aerix's PUP in all the various positions, tanking included.
>> Click Here to view the guide over at BG Wiki <<
Last Update: 26th April 2019
I'd like to give a big shout-out to all the Puppetmasters, old or new, who have been relentlessly sharing their PUP knowledge and findings online in order to help me write this guide.
Cheers!
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