Blue Mage Tanking/Cruel Joke Guide For Odyssey

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フォーラム » FFXI » Odyssey » Blue Mage Tanking/Cruel Joke Guide for Odyssey
Blue Mage Tanking/Cruel Joke Guide for Odyssey
 Asura.Chendar
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By Asura.Chendar 2021-09-10 10:27:29  
Cerberus.Praios said: »
Heya. Dunno if mentioned somewhere yet:
Trio'ing Sheol C with CJ (BLU, BRD, PLD) awhile ago. We experienced that all segments from gathered mobs more then 14 and killed by CJ at ones dont count. We checked this multiple times and /facepalmed for the gathered 20/30 mobs we killed with CJ all the runs befor ><

Might be linked to this?
Mass pull enmity mechanics

Sounds likely that since anything past 15 won't be on the enmity list they won't count for segments?
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By Felgarr 2021-09-10 10:32:21  
Cerberus.Praios said: »
Heya. Dunno if mentioned somewhere yet:
Trio'ing Sheol C with CJ (BLU, BRD, PLD) awhile ago. We experienced that all segments from gathered mobs more then 14 and killed by CJ at ones dont count. We checked this multiple times and /facepalmed for the gathered 20/30 mobs we killed with CJ all the runs befor ><

This is false. Packet loss is extremely frequent in Odyssey and the absence of a "You receive XX segments" message doesn't mean you're not getting segments. All Cruel-Joke-able mobs yield segments. We did a 4-family pull on top of a fetter on Floor 3 last night. Our highest was 2078 segments (25% bonus, so total was 10390 segments). No cheating, third party tools or hacks. We're extremely well coordinated. For example, while the BLU is waiting for mobs to die from CJ, he must stay at those group of mobs or the CJ effect wear off. Meanwhile, if the PLD generated no additional enmity on those CJ mobs, the PLD and other DDs are free to kill another family of mobs instead of just waiting around.

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 Asura.Chendar
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By Asura.Chendar 2021-09-10 10:42:56  
Number of targets displayed for aoe spells is also capped by said 15 apparently. So entirely possible it's either packet loss or just straight up not showing up in log, yea.
 Valefor.Maurauc
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By Valefor.Maurauc 2021-09-10 10:49:20  
Yeah, the game needs to have registered correct enmity on the mobs for the segments to be earned. Similar to scenarios where a RUN shockwaves a group of 20+ enemies + Agon mobs, the WHM cures them and the Agon mobs will pile on the WHM.

Our best strat for this was making the BLU(s) equip Filamented Hold. Easily spammable, sit in the center of a group of doomed enemies, spin and tag clumps at a time. Will turn that 15x segment reward into more, plus it gives the BLU stuff to do while they wait on Doom to tick down.
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By Bahamut.Jedigamer 2021-09-10 10:55:24  
Felgarr said: »
Cerberus.Praios said: »
Heya. Dunno if mentioned somewhere yet:
Trio'ing Sheol C with CJ (BLU, BRD, PLD) awhile ago. We experienced that all segments from gathered mobs more then 14 and killed by CJ at ones dont count. We checked this multiple times and /facepalmed for the gathered 20/30 mobs we killed with CJ all the runs befor ><

This is false. Packet loss is extremely frequent in Odyssey and the absence of a "You receive XX segments" message doesn't mean you're not getting segments. All Cruel-Joke-able mobs yield segments. We did a 4-family pull on top of a fetter on Floor 3 last night. Our highest was 2078 segments (25% bonus, so total was 10390 segments). No cheating, third party tools or hacks. We're extremely well coordinated. For example, while the BLU is waiting for mobs to die from CJ, he must stay at those group of mobs or the CJ effect wear off. Meanwhile, if the PLD generated no additional enmity on those CJ mobs, the PLD and other DDs are free to kill another family of mobs instead of just waiting around.



What was the setup for this? My groups highest so far has been 9000 segments and 1020000 gil. Good job on that run.
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 Cerberus.Praios
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By Cerberus.Praios 2021-09-10 11:43:07  
"This is false!" BOOM (mkay)

I dont see, wy a 8312 segment run is a proof vs. what i said? Ok, ya killed most mobs/Agons + chests segments. Doesnd say ya did not lost most segments from the 4-family pull.
I dont say, iam right. Maybe we did it wrong (enmity-whatever may missed). May Jedigamer can alight us tomorrow. Thank you in advance!

About the packet loss. What did we do (befor bonus segments): We counted the killed groups and did the math after the run, checking the moogle and noted a difference between math and obtained segments. More testings followed and it capped exactly at 14 mobs per CJ.
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By Bahamut.Jedigamer 2021-09-10 11:53:28  
Ive recorded several runs so I'll double check the tape and see. I'll post a clip that either proves or disproves it.
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By Shiva.Larrymc 2021-09-10 12:04:09  
Cerberus.Praios said: »
"This is false!" BOOM (mkay)

I dont see, wy a 8312 segment run is a proof vs. what i said? Ok, ya killed most mobs/Agons + chests segments. Doesnd say ya did not lost most segments from the 4-family pull.
I dont say, iam right. Maybe we did it wrong (enmity-whatever may missed). May Jedigamer can alight us tomorrow. Thank you in advance!

About the packet loss. What did we do (befor bonus segments): We counted the killed groups and did the math after the run, checking the moogle and noted a difference between math and obtained segments. More testings followed and it capped exactly at 14 mobs per CJ.

Felgar is correct - segments are not capped at 14 mobs per CJ.
I regularly farm Sheol B with just a blu + brd. And I pull all the mobs from each floor together for a single CJ - up to 50 mobs at once. The gil and segments received at the end match the expected value for getting credit for all the mobs.
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By Cerberus.Praios 2021-09-10 13:20:46  
Thank you, Larrymc, to share your experience with us. I'd be the most happy person here, if it proofed to be wrong. Its maybe capped just at Sheol C? Or we did some strange (multiple) wrong calculations with allways the same result and without decimal places.
It may needs more actions on the pulled group and blu sleep/CJ hate caps befor (maybe on 14 mobs...?!), like Maurauc mentioned befor.
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2021-09-10 13:43:12  
Cerberus.Praios said: »
a 8312 segment run

That's a 10,390 run. Its 2078 x5, not x4. The 2078 is rewarded at the end, so that bonus of 1/4 is added to the end of your segment total. (Doesn't include anything killed after clicking the flux)
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By Bahamut.Jedigamer 2021-09-10 14:38:44  
Holy crap. I just watched one of my videos and the guy might be right. I watched my group pull two groups up on floor 4 (crawlers and Ziz) and we killed a Behemoth. We started the pull with 77787 segments from my point of view and ended with 78654 after killing behemoth and the two groups. Thats a difference of 867. A NM is worth 340 segments and each nostros is worth 31 segments. We should have received 940 segments after that but by my calculations, we only received 867. I'll need someone else to confirm this because it looks like we didn't get credit for 3 nostros kills.
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By Shiva.Larrymc 2021-09-12 04:55:16  
Bahamut.Jedigamer said: »
Holy crap. I just watched one of my videos and the guy might be right. I watched my group pull two groups up on floor 4 (crawlers and Ziz) and we killed a Behemoth. We started the pull with 77787 segments from my point of view and ended with 78654 after killing behemoth and the two groups. Thats a difference of 867. A NM is worth 340 segments and each nostros is worth 31 segments. We should have received 940 segments after that but by my calculations, we only received 867. I'll need someone else to confirm this because it looks like we didn't get credit for 3 nostros kills.

I recorded my last run - and to my surprise and horror I saw the same behavior.

No boxes were opened during the run.

It is not capped at 14 mobs per CJ - If you pull more than 10, you seem to get credit for some random number between 14? and the actual number you pulled.

Examples:
I pulled 30 mobs to a group on floor 5 - I got credit for 29.
I pulled 20 mobs to a group on the same floor 5 - I got credit for 15.

It seems really random what you get credit for if you pull more than 10.

On the large pull where I got near full credit - I entombed and slept the batch a few times as I was pulling more mobs to it - maybe these repetitive actions got more mobs eligible for credit somehow?

Full stats for the mule run (blu + brd) in sheol B
What the segments should have been:
floor 2 = 20x15 = 300
floor 3 = 20x17 = 340
floor 4 = 11x19 = 209
floor 5 = 30x21 = 630
floor 5 = 20x21 = 420
Run should have been 1899 segments (not including bonus)

But the bonus at the end was 416 segments - so run was actually 1664 (not including bonus)
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By Cerberus.Praios 2021-09-12 07:47:46  
Heya. At first, my very thx to Jedi and Larry to check my experience on your own runs. Since ya got different numbers on larger groups, my guess atm:
The AoE spell on larger group runs down an invisible mob-ID-list (maybe the enmity down to line 14) and stops there. If you target different mobs the (14?!) mob-count start at another line of the "list". I have no idea about game-coding tho.

@ Buukki: The 8312 segments was intented as its written, because i wanted to show the little Fellgarr's post added to the shown problem. If you kill all mobs/Agons/NMs you earn 10840 segments befor bonus (excluding chests segments). What we see on the 8312 number is a) there IS space between earnd and max. segments and its no proof for correct CJ-kills and segment count and b) /hurray his group did a good job within 30mins...

It would be great if we could find and share a solid way to make sure huge CJ-kill counts 100% segmentwise. Thank you and a sunny weekend for all!
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By Bahamut.Jedigamer 2021-09-12 10:02:44  
Ive reviewed 4 separate CJ videos and each one shows a segment discrepancy between when the pull started and ended. There isn't a consistent number that it's off by either. I've seen it be off anywhere between 1 mobs worth of segments all the way up to 3 and on each one I was spamming dream flower on the groups to get hate.

There is definitely an inconsistent loss of segments when using CJ.
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2021-09-12 11:23:24  
Seems like there is a loss of packets where the game can't handle all of the incoming signals or actions at once, so it skips some. Sometimes the game aggregates multiple kills of monsters if they die close together and gives you back the segment count in total on screen. You see this when using Cruel joke. I remember when I made my first Cruel Joke video a year ago, I would physically count the number of kills in my log, and it was sometimes different from how many monsters actually died. Would pull like 20, log only showed 18 died from CJ, but all monsters were dead. This was before segments came out. This might also explain why some people have mentioned they cannot remove the second aura from Gaol bosses under certain conditions. The game is probably overloaded with so many actions all at once (between the boss's moves, fetter spam, and your actions), and it doesn't completely register that you have in fact completed the requirements for blue!!, so it sometimes misses it.

Bahamut.Jedigamer said: »
There is definitely an inconsistent loss of segments when using CJ.

This probably affects drops too.

It may not be an Odyssey bug specifically, but just a system limitation with the game itself. I have seen this happen even when doing Omen Objectives. I swear I have completed objectives in Omen, but the game acts as if I didn't (even though my chat text shows I did in fact complete it). I see this especially when there are multiple monsters being pulled at once.
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By Felgarr 2021-09-12 12:32:01  
Cerberus.Praios said: »
Heya. At first, my very thx to Jedi and Larry to check my experience on your own runs. Since ya got different numbers on larger groups, my guess atm:
The AoE spell on larger group runs down an invisible mob-ID-list (maybe the enmity down to line 14) and stops there. If you target different mobs the (14?!) mob-count start at another line of the "list". I have no idea about game-coding tho.

@ Buukki: The 8312 segments was intented as its written, because i wanted to show the little Fellgarr's post added to the shown problem. If you kill all mobs/Agons/NMs you earn 10840 segments befor bonus (excluding chests segments). What we see on the 8312 number is a) there IS space between earnd and max. segments and its no proof for correct CJ-kills and segment count and b) /hurray his group did a good job within 30mins...

It would be great if we could find and share a solid way to make sure huge CJ-kill counts 100% segmentwise. Thank you and a sunny weekend for all!

First of all, nothing about me is little. Second, I'm OK with admitting when I'm wrong, but there isn't enough data here for me to do that. It's entirely possible that maybe more than X mobs do not get reported as "killed" during the same server tick. I don't know for sure and I've never seen it firsthand personally.

I am inclined to ask, because you said "Agon" mobs, did you kill all of them before going to the next family? Their earned segments only count if you kill all of them. (I know this would be silly, after killing the fetter to leave a stray few lying around, but I didn't see a video).

Also, if this does turn out to be true, whoever decides to report this will likely get Cruel Joke removed as a strat. Just saying...
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By Shiva.Larrymc 2021-09-14 02:36:13  
I tried again with large pulls but this time using Actinic burst separately on each batch of 10 before I pulled them to the larger group.

It *seemed* to reduce the loss, but in each batch of 20+, there were still 1-3 not counted.

Verified by opening a box before the batch, killing the batch, opening box after - then checking the delta (minus the 75 from the box itself).

Segments before run: 62467
floor 1 - killed 10 - should have been 130
floor 2 - killed 29 - should have been 435
opened box - had 63092 segments (difference of 15 segments - which is 1 mobs worth from floor 2)
floor 3 - killed 30 - should have been 510
opened box - had 63626 segments (difference of 66 segments - which is 1 mobs worth from floor 2 and 3 mobs from floor 3)

floor 4 - killed 28 - should have been 532
floor 5 - killed 20 - should have been 420
Opened box - had 64613 segments - loss of 40 segments total from floor 4 & 5, which is 1 mob from floor 4 (19) and 1 mob from floor 5 (21).

Opened 3 boxes this run in total.

Total run should have been 2252 segments (before bonus) - actual received was 2144 (before bonus).

In total there was a 108 segment loss for the run.
It was still worth while pulling groups greater than 10 though because I would not have enough CJ timers available to kill each batch separately.
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By Asura.Nususu 2021-09-15 14:40:35  
To those of you who tank/CJ mobs on BLU, do you have a separate lua file for this, or functionality built into an existing lua to swap modes? Would anyone be willing to share with me what they use?
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By Bahamut.Jedigamer 2021-09-15 17:16:56  
Asura.Nususu said: »
To those of you who tank/CJ mobs on BLU, do you have a separate lua file for this, or functionality built into an existing lua to swap modes? Would anyone be willing to share with me what they use?


I actually don't use gearswap on any of my jobs. I macro in gearsets the old fashioned way.
 Valefor.Prothescar
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2021-09-15 18:25:01  
I just use standard rotating toggles. A key bind for x set that rotates an index of subsets every time it's pressed.
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By Torzak 2021-09-15 18:54:22  
Shiva.Larrymc said: »
I tried again with large pulls but this time using Actinic burst separately on each batch of 10 before I pulled them to the larger group.

It *seemed* to reduce the loss, but in each batch of 20+, there were still 1-3 not counted.


This issue is not specific to AOE. I posted about this issue in this thread back in March just doing single target kills.

https://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/54555/the-odyssey-strategy-and-discussion/97#3569273
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2021-09-15 20:09:49  
That sounds like a pretty significant bug. I have never noticed it, because I am not really paying attention to segments earned for every single kill. Looks like from the post this has been going on since the start, so that is pretty awful that people are being robbed of potential segments.

Submit a bug for this please.
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By Chimerawizard 2021-09-15 21:01:55  
Sesshmaru said: »
Added Video: Odyssey C annihilations segment earned 13610, Credit to Headsparkle .
Nice video. Someone make it in english.
It was painful at the end at 1:50 remaining, 28:13 in the video, where the BLU's unbridled learning was down for another 21s and he didn't follow up with unbridled wisdom, but sat around instead. probably his only potentially fatal mistake. It's good he didn't get a random resist.
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By gargurty 2021-09-21 13:18:42  
little question.
If i check sets with gearinfo i see malignance giving more eva then nyame. Why evasion tank in nyame then and not malignance? Or is the program wrong?
I do see a difrence in def tho and hp.
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By Leviathan.Boposhopo 2021-09-21 13:22:44  
gargurty said: »
little question.
If i check sets with gearinfo i see malignance giving more eva then nyame. Why evasion tank in nyame then and not malignance? Or is the program wrong?
I do see a difrence in def tho and hp.

Malignance does get more EVA due to having a higher AGI stat, however Nyame was way more DEF and HP, generally why you use it instead of Malignance.
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By gargurty 2021-09-21 13:44:40  
cool thanks for the reply
 Bahamut.Jedigamer
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By Bahamut.Jedigamer 2021-09-21 14:06:45  
The one pro of malignance over nyame is that malignance gives store TP and physical damage+, so if you plan on swinging a tizona, which you should, malignance is the better choice. You can use your ring slots for additional pdt\dt. I'm flirting with a hybrid set for Blu that has high evasion and evasion bonus traits to see if it's a viable DD setup. Acc is about 1200 and so is evasion. Attack is right around 1400 I think.
necroskull Necro Bump Detected! [37 days between previous and next post]
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By Bahamut.Jedigamer 2021-10-28 13:09:51  
I put this set together for a BLU enmity set.

ItemSet 382353

I've been only really using it for tanking Vagary so far, and have been a backup tank on a couple Omen runs. Works well if you Diaga a bunch and spam fantod. I'll probably add in the unmoving collar +1 R15 and drop the current neck piece.