What's Good About FFXI.

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What's good about FFXI.
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By llAKs0nll 2021-11-22 16:26:05  
Bahamut.Belkin said: »
The list really does go on and on. I know a lot of people rag on this game and lack of content/lazy content, but in the hayday, it was just absolutely fantastic. Even if they had missteps, the game at it's core was and still is pretty satisfying.

Those whom never played FFXI will never understand just how good an MMO can be. I watched some Twitch streaming of New World and I blame FFXI cuz every other MMO in my mind I immediately start Judging by FFXI standards which is inevitably harsh. I’m not impressed by them at all whatsoever. Not even impressed w/ FFXIV but even that beats WoW and New World while being IMO the inferior MMO version of FF.

SE needs to Remake / Remaster FFXI since it was designed around PS2 and release on PS5 and XsX and allow us to keep all our progress in a New World which was what FFXIV was originally supposed to do iirc connecting 11 w/ 14.
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By Ragnarok.Jessikah 2021-11-22 16:35:56  
I don't even get the whole "respects your time" thing. Now that FFXI has things like Trusts, there's just no reason for that anymore. Yeah, it used to be extra harsh needing between 6 to 18 people for almost literally anything. You needed to dedicate literally hours at any given time, and FFXI used to require you to schedule your own time around that.

But not anymore...

Only a few endgame things even need full parties now. A lot of it can be ganged-upon regardless of party status, and everything else can be done either solo or with like one or two extra people.

FFXI now leaves remnants of fun little things to do at your own discretion. Even the more grindy stuff can be done in little chunks. But that's up to you to do, and nothing is gated from not having a Tizona i119-III.
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By Gambits 2021-11-22 18:22:31  
Once you have experienced the best, you can forget the rest.
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By Draylo 2021-11-22 18:43:02  
I just saw a youtube post where someone commented on FFX and said, oh this isn't the best FF game, XIV is the best in story and gameplay. I just can't believe people think XIV is the best... yikes. Some high level brain washing.
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By Ragnarok.Jessikah 2021-11-22 19:44:25  
I wonder how much I would have liked other MMORPGs if I'd never played XI. Part of me thinks if I'd skipped XI, I would have gotten on the WoW bandwagon. Yet another part of me thinks that I just altogether don't like that formula.

By all rights, I wanted to like XIV. I went in with an open mind, even going so far as to tell myself that XI is old news. I hadn't even played XI in like 8 years, and I was hoping I could just go past it and join the "cool kids" game.

But the formula itself just can't gel with my tastes. It's oil and I'm water. If I look at every one of the games I've ever liked, they've always been horribly unbalanced and easily broken by a combination of strategy and trial-and-error. Growing up, I always liked the games where I could read the instruction manual in the back seat of my mom's car and theorycraft new ways to play, while eagerly awaiting my chance to play it again.

My high school notebook is full of new job concepts, balance patch notes, optimal item sets, and ideas for new items for FFXI. I'd spend hours playing Final Fantasy Tactics, trying out each spell and attack, to figure out the strengths and weaknesses of each job. You'd walk past another player in XI wearing a new item you've never seen before and your jaw would just drop. You'd make your life goal to obtain that item and become the best at that job in the world.
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By Sylph.Ticktick 2021-11-22 20:12:10  
llAKs0nll said: »
Knowing such only makes me wonder if JP ever actually used such like ourselves or was it always just an NA Exclusive in FFXI.

JP developed ffassist2 which did 90% of what windower does now back when windower didn't have lua.
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By Mattelot 2021-11-22 20:14:41  
Draylo said: »
I just saw a youtube post where someone commented on FFX and said, oh this isn't the best FF game, XIV is the best in story and gameplay. I just can't believe people think XIV is the best... yikes. Some high level brain washing.

It's not a bad game at all. Different strokes.

Those who want more immediate gratification tend to gravitate towards games like that.

Those who grew up with XI will always understand it's appeal
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By Draylo 2021-11-22 21:57:56  
Looks like your putting words in my post, which you commonly do when responding to me.
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By Ragnarok.Jessikah 2021-11-22 22:06:41  
Mattelot said: »
Those who grew up with XI will always understand it's appeal
It would be nice if more people would give it a shot.

Most people just outright refuse to even try it. For either no reason at all or for a really stupid reason like "But it looks like a PS2 game".

In real life, out of the gamers I've grown acquainted with, literally none of them have ever even tried to play FFXI. If that small sample size is any indication, I'm led to believe that it's not even that people don't like it; it's that a friend of a friend of a friend of theirs tried it for a day, got lost because the game didn't hold their hand, and quit.
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By Draylo 2021-11-22 23:15:15  
We are a dying breed of gamers, that's the sad truth. The future of gamers is what the brainwashing companies want, short attention span gnats that buy up every dlc for that sweet glamour amd to stand out. People dont have patience for in depth games. I'm honestly surprised anytime a game like that comes along in this gen. Most of those gaming companies have been conditioning the masses into that mindset for a while. Fast and large quantities
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By llAKs0nll 2021-11-23 03:47:17  
Mattelot said: »
Draylo said: »
I just saw a youtube post where someone commented on FFX and said, oh this isn't the best FF game, XIV is the best in story and gameplay. I just can't believe people think XIV is the best... yikes. Some high level brain washing.

It's not a bad game at all. Different strokes.

Those who want more immediate gratification tend to gravitate towards games like that.

Those who grew up with XI will always understand it's appeal
I agree 100%. FFXIV is actually the Best modern MMO to play atm. I’m sure FFXIV is doing extremely well compared to every other New MMO out there. I wouldn’t expect anything less from SE tbh. It’s just not FFXI and I wish it was is the problem I have w/ it. I naturally compare 11 vs 14 and know 14 would had been much better if SE had kept the Core concepts in tact that made 11 so unique.

SE basically decided to make a WoW game w/ FFXI characters.
Which is funny cuz of all those years playing FFXI I always heard ppl mentioning WoW and I had no clue whatsoever what that game was nor what it played like but now I do. I played WoW via hitting Lv40 in FFXIV.

They did an incredibly good job at it too tbh cloning WoW. If I chat w/ any WoW players I always tell them to go play FFXIV cuz w/o even playing WoW I automatically know SE are the GODS of RPGs & not Blizzard themselves.

FFXI was always better than WoW so ofc FFXIV is the Best WoW game on the market now. It’s just not FFXI and it’s amazing how many are playing 14 atm that have NO clue whatsoever as to how much better 14 could had been if SE didn’t opt to cut away into Blizzard’s player base.

Overwatch is a Great game. Way better FPS than SE is capable of creating but when it comes to RPGs there’s only SE above everyone else including Blizzard whom are NOT the GODS of MMO. I absolutely love Overwatch so I learned just how talented Blizzard Devs really are yet they ain’t seriously on par w/ SE w/ MMOs.


Blizzard did to Team Fortress 2 what SE did to Blizzard themselves. They copied someone else’s gameplay but made their own version infinitely superior to that which they cloned which is fitting tbh.
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By llAKs0nll 2021-11-23 04:07:35  
Ragnarok.Jessikah said: »
I wonder how much I would have liked other MMORPGs if I'd never played XI. Part of me thinks if I'd skipped XI, I would have gotten on the WoW bandwagon. Yet another part of me thinks that I just altogether don't like that formula.
FFXI even killed my interests in FFXII through FFXV let alone FFXIV itself. I played every FF including FF3 and upward until ignoring FFXI on PS2 ( idk why I did tbh ) until 11 was offered as free Beta on Xbox360. After that 11 changed everything. I stopped playing any other newly released editions of FF after the fact.
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By RadialArcana 2021-11-23 04:33:27  
I don't think we're a dying breed, I think modern games just appeal more to a the mass market that never used to be interested in these games previously. Now this mass market complain about staples of the genres they play in.
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By Ragnarok.Jessikah 2021-11-23 07:59:00  
I still hope that eventually they fix some of the barriers to entry into FFXI. Specifically the installation, registration, and update processes. Maybe get us a respectable free trial and update the default controls to boot.

More than anything, that's my hope for the 20th anniversary (or any time in the near future).

It's just hard to convince people to play the game when you need to register three accounts, do that ***-backwards installation thing, wait for hours for the game to update (while you can't click off of it and do something else), and then deal with the game crashing whenever you Alt+Tab if you haven't installed Windower.
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By Bahamut.Belkin 2021-11-23 08:08:13  
I'm both surprised and not surprised that they still use this archaic PlayOnline boot-up system. I would kill a man for the FFXIV boot-up process to be transplanted onto FFXI.

Any multi-boxer knows the real endgame is fighting those PlayOnline menus.
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By Ragnarok.Jessikah 2021-11-23 08:16:11  
Bahamut.Belkin said: »
I'm both surprised and not surprised that they still use this archaic PlayOnline boot-up system. I would kill a man for the FFXIV boot-up process to be transplanted onto FFXI.

Any multi-boxer knows the real endgame is fighting those PlayOnline menus.
The first boss and the final boss to FFXI:
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By Bahamut.Belkin 2021-11-23 08:19:43  
Another thing I like about game ^_____________^


I just got done with the Diablo 2 Resurrected mania. Diablo 2 is a fun game, one of the very first games I grinded out/played religiously as a young lad. But the chase for the best gear is just such a fruitless endeavor. It feels really bad. I was putting in serious hours and felt like I was making zero headway toward getting the best items. You could grind for 1000 runs and there is a not-so-small chance that you have absolutely nothing of value to show for it.

In FFXI, there is a much stronger correlation between time spent farming and reward received. Some grinds are a bit disproportional for the reward, but take something like Daurdabla for example. The grind is long, but manageable. You can reasonably estimate how long it will take and plan accordingly. Not only that, but you can measure your progress on it as you go. And then at the end you get an absolute game-changer of an item. For reference, in Diablo 2, you could be on your 500th Chaos Sanctuary run with no high rune drops and it could be even 500 more before you see a high rune drop. There is zero progression. It either drops or it doesn't. Spoiler alert: it ain't droppin. You are at the mercy of an absolutely brutal RNG system.

In the beginning of FFXI, this concept was not necessarily true, as making money and farming items was a bit more difficult than it is today. But I'd say from 2017-2021, they got the balance between "time spent farming" vs "reward received" in a good place.
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By Mattelot 2021-11-23 08:26:24  
llAKs0nll said: »
I agree 100%. FFXIV is actually the Best modern MMO to play atm. I’m sure FFXIV is doing extremely well compared to every other New MMO out there. I wouldn’t expect anything less from SE tbh. It’s just not FFXI and I wish it was is the problem I have w/ it. I naturally compare 11 vs 14 and know 14 would had been much better if SE had kept the Core concepts in tact that made 11 so unique.

It is, for sure. I've played both and if I had to recommend one to somebody, it would be FFXIV in a heartbeat. WoW's systems now are so cumbersome and inconvenient. It's such a hard sell today.

While FFXIV is very homogenized, it can still be very fun to play. You just won't get that sense of uniqueness you get in XI at all but that may not be a dealbreaker for many, especially if they have no basis for comparison. It's like when you tell someone that they will not get the same great story you get from the book as you do the movie... does not mean they won't enjoy the movie.

Bahamut.Belkin said: »
But the chase for the best gear is just such a fruitless endeavor. It feels really bad. I was putting in serious hours and felt like I was making zero headway toward getting the best items. You could grind for 1000 runs and there is a not-so-small chance that you have absolutely nothing of value to show for it.

This is very true. I don't know if it's still true for Resurrected, but a legit casual player trying to compete in the trade market against those who's computers repeatedly kill Pindleskin while they sleep was nearly meaningless. Nobody wanted their decent casual drops. They wanted stuff that they would likely never acquire. Making is so that you'd have to jump on the bandwagon or hit a permanent wall.
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By Ragnarok.Jessikah 2021-11-23 08:41:49  
Bahamut.Belkin said: »
In the beginning of FFXI, this concept was not necessarily true, as making money and farming items was a bit more difficult than it is today. But I'd say from 2017-2021, they got the balance between "time spent farming" vs "reward received" in a good place.
Very well said.

In the same spirit of the game's modern design philosophy, I think one of my favourite developments to the game has been the Trust system. While it still has a lot of issues (AI stops following sometimes, mages are a bit inconsistent, etc.), the fact that they came up with a system to allow players to fill in gaps in their parties or altogether solo most of the game without compromising the 6-person party structure is monumental.

And they're balanced really well. You still want real people in your party, but they're competent enough that you can still get stuff done.

Every job has glaring weaknesses. That's not only the foundation of the gameplay, it's literally the theme of the narrative. To allow for solo play without just shoring up the weaknesses and dissolving the need to work together to accomplish stuff is such an achievement.
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By Bahamut.Belkin 2021-11-23 10:12:01  
I was pleasantly surprised they managed to pull off the Trust system. It was the infusion that was needed at the time. There are a handful of wishes and hopes that I have for the system if they were to ever improve it, but man did they do a good job at implementation.

It does make me think about what life would have been like in 2004~2005 if Trusts existed in any fashion. Even being able to just summon one Trust ally would've changed so much of the leveling experience. How many times did EXP parties stall out because there were no tanks or no healers? Pop a trust in for a short term fix until a real one becomes available. That would've been rather dank.
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By Ragnarok.Jessikah 2021-11-23 10:26:42  
I was thinking that as well. It's the exact kind of quality-of-life improvement that FFXI had always needed. Tank logged out for supper? Summon Mnejing until you can spot another one, all the while never missing a beat.

The best kind of QOL improvements are the ones that don't pave over the fun stuff.
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By Mattelot 2021-11-23 16:44:23  
Draylo said: »
Looks like your putting words in my post, which you commonly do when responding to me.

I just scrolled up and noticed I missed this.

What words did I add to your post? You can literally see it's identical. And what post(s) did I ever do that to?
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By Valefor.Furyspawn 2021-11-23 17:52:40  
Bahamut.Belkin said: »
For reference, in Diablo 2, you could be on your 500th Chaos Sanctuary run with no high rune drops and it could be even 500 more before you see a high rune drop. There is zero progression. It either drops or it doesn't. Spoiler alert: it ain't droppin. You are at the mercy of an absolutely brutal RNG system.

This sounds so much like Malignance, Crepuscular, and Pulse Panoplia. :')
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By Ragnarok.Jessikah 2021-11-23 18:18:40  
Valefor.Furyspawn said: »
This sounds so much like Malignance, Crepuscular, and Pulse Panoplia. :')
Not gonna lie, I think if any game has any drop rate under like 20% they should instead opt to give you points to cash in. Or some other system that grants you extra drop "rolls" per consecutive blank. If your chances went from 1% to 2% to 4% to 8% (etc.) every time you didn't get the item, at least you'd know you're getting closer.

It's important to have that feeling of not wasting time. And while FFXI has gotten considerably better at that over the years, it's still not perfect.
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By Asura.Aeonova 2021-11-23 19:00:29  
Bahamut.Belkin said: »
I just got so tired of fetching the bagels. What I mean by fetching the bagels is "go kill 5 wolves for wolf hides", bring the hides back, get some EXP and gold, copy and paste with different mobs a billion more times. I peeped New World gameplay video after it was released and saw the sidebar littered with "obtain 5 bagels" type quests, sighed, and X'd out.

Let me tell you all about Bat Wings, Imp Wings, Ladybug Wings, Clionid Wings, and Twitherym Wings.
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By Ragnarok.Jessikah 2021-11-23 19:44:29  
Asura.Aeonova said: »
Let me tell you all about Bat Wings, Imp Wings, Ladybug Wings, Clionid Wings, and Twitherym Wings.
That's what I was saying before. There's only so many different kinds of quests you can have. But what makes FFXI great is that it doesn't hold you by the scruff of your neck and tell you to do that all at once.

Like every RPG ever conceived, "collecting an item and delivering it to the appropriate NPC for a reward" is a thing you can do, yes. But FFXI has the forethought to not tie it to EXP or even money. In fact, the idea of most of those kinds of quests (especially if repeatable) is just a secondary reward. Like, "Hey, you were out exploring and you found a pair of Twitherym Wings? Why not deliver it to this NPC next time you're in town for a small reward and a boost to your Fame!"

If you want experience points, you go out and kill monsters.
If you want to boost your fame, you do some repeatable quests.
If you want a cool new item, you do a higher-level, non-repeatable quest.
If you want to increase your rank, you do missions.
If you want money, find something you're good at, and exploit it.
The list goes on.

This is wholly contrary to the WoW (and by extension, common MMORPG) formula, wherein:
If you want experience points, you do the next quest.
If you want a cool new item, you do the next quest.
If you want money, you do the next quest.
Everything is rewarded via quests. Even attempting to just go outside and kill monsters is met with like 5 EXP per kill. Compare that to when you have a quest active, asking you to kill that same monster 3 times, rewarding you with 15,000 EXP and the Silver Sword of Norrin Radd.

There is no weighing options. There's no choice to switch to a different task when you're bored. There's no moment of "Yeah, I got my new axe. Time to get it dirty and see how badass it is!". There is only:
Find the brightest-glowing question mark on your map;
follow the GPS to the exclamation mark;
repeat until capped.
(Maybe you'll be lucky enough that the game will make the quest about killing goblins instead of doing the neighbor's laundry. But only 5 goblins. Anything after those 5 and you're wasting time.)

So yes. FFXI has those same boring, mundane quests. But at least in FFXI, if you're bored of something, there are dozens of other things you can do.
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By Valefor.Furyspawn 2021-11-23 22:10:19  
Ragnarok.Jessikah said: »
Valefor.Furyspawn said: »
This sounds so much like Malignance, Crepuscular, and Pulse Panoplia. :')
Not gonna lie, I think if any game has any drop rate under like 20% they should instead opt to give you points to cash in. Or some other system that grants you extra drop "rolls" per consecutive blank. If your chances went from 1% to 2% to 4% to 8% (etc.) every time you didn't get the item, at least you'd know you're getting closer.

It's important to have that feeling of not wasting time. And while FFXI has gotten considerably better at that over the years, it's still not perfect.

Yeah, that always struck me as a decent solution to bad RNG. Grinding it out should improve your chances, or provide you with a currency to eventually buy the item directly.
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By Mattelot 2021-11-24 07:58:05  
Valefor.Furyspawn said: »
This sounds so much like Malignance, Crepuscular, and Pulse Panoplia. :')

It is but in Diablo 2, there were programs that would do repeated runs for you while you were afk...

Pindlebot was the most common since Pindleskin's area was immediately accessed from act 5 town and not dynamic. Set it to go, go to bed and wake up with a stash full of rare loot. I do not know if things that specific exist in this game.
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