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nirvana is dead, all hail opashoro
Fenrir.Zenion
サーバ: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 213
By Fenrir.Zenion 2023-07-14 09:09:34
Upgrading prime weapons turned out to be a shitshow
I understand that much, but surly the end result is better for not-sorite things, yeah? Assume that you somehow do not know that gil can be exchanged for alexandrite or swarts or mulcibar's scoria...
...how many fully augmented Nirvanas could you make in the time it takes to make one Opashoro?
Did a little back of the napkin math here, and the answer is "depending on how good you are at Sortie, anywhere from 'enough' to 'a buttload'."
What's a good solo Nyzul run now? 2500 tokens? I'm going to assume 2500. So that's 60 Nyzul, 70 Einherjar, with travel time factored in let's call that 81 hours total. Assaults... average them out to 20 minutes, there's some that take a whole half hour and some that take longer to load into than to clear. 17 hours.
We'll just call it a whole 16 hour day to get Sanraku his pictures of Spider-Man then climb the ZNM ladder four times. Also going to assume that three of the four Sarameya fights are saved for when there's a trial set for them.
Garland of Bliss suuuuucks for killshot. Not as bad as Atonement but there's just not a lot summoner can do to scale it up. Gonna call it two minutes to kill one mob. It might be closer to one minute in actual reality, but this lets us ignore travel time and breaks to question our life choices. 200 weaponskills on beasts is a bit faster if you have the gear, call that a minute a hit but less is entirely possible. 36 hours cranking out weaponskills while the magian moogle watches creepily.
Let's say an hour per chariot, give lots of time for sight-seeing, cell hunting, picking up a little alexandrite for the next run.
So, if you didn't sleep, barely took breaks to eat or go to the bathroom, you'd be spending about 72 hours on all the non-alexandrite tasks.
Looks like Bhaflau II offers an average of 200 alexandrite if every NM drops its purse, 112 if none of them do, so we'll average the averages and call that 156 per run. 193 laps through Salvage, let's call it 75 minutes each. 241 hours in there. Just for the sake of easy numbers, we'll round that off to 240, making it 10 full days.
For beitetsu, we'll assume you have six bodies to take in to avatar fights for maximum beitetsu box collecting potential. At this point nobody's still reading so I'm just going to average no beitetsu and maximum beitetsu, for 0 to 14 x 30, 210 per avatar. 48 fights, about 20 minutes with the fight and the loading and travel time, you could do it with less but I'm going to pad a little. Add another 20 minutes every seven fights to go refill merits. 18 more hours.
So we're up to 14 and a half days. Just so we don't Pandemonium Warden the whole process, let's assume a healthy 8 hours of sleep every day now, to make that 20 days total with no distractions, only FFXI.
Now, for your detritus, we'll call that an average of 12 per Omen run, which might be a little high if you're not on TH8 thief, a little low if you are, it's about what I expect on TH4 blu. Since you can store your canteens without losing time, we'll assume you're getting a full 1.2 Omen runs per day without fail, so 14.4 detritus. We'll add a full Dynamis clear every three days, 40 total volte mobs that should average about four detritus a head, for 160/run or 53.3 a day. In total, about nine days of detritus mining - and that's mostly empty time, 24 minutes a day of Omen and 40 minutes a day of Dynamis on average. I'll call that one extra day, but it doesn't necessarily need to be. So, 21 days.
Assuming you make about 39500 muffins a run and hit every run perfectly at 20 hours, gallimaufry and psyches will line up and it'll take exactly six months. If you only want to do it once a day, you need to hit ~47250 a day instead. If you're doing, say, blu cleave solo instead and pulling in 14k per run, that'll be 607 trips, 506 days hitting the timing dead on every time.
So, depending on how hardcore you are about your prime weapon, you spend from 180 to 607 days on it.
So, about 8 to 28 rank 15 Nirvanas for one stage 5 Opashoro.
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By Pantafernando 2023-07-14 09:29:32
Quote: ...how many fully augmented Nirvanas could you make in the time it takes to make one Opashoro?
Funny how peeps assumed prime would be easy tier like aeonic at first
Many people saying: “hey, dont do XYZ weapon because prime gonna crush it”.
Now the talk is: you can make dozen REMA for a prime
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サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 66
By Asura.Hotworks 2023-07-14 10:32:15
Everyone and their moms mules would be on their 5th prime right now if it wasn’t like that.
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Carbuncle.Maletaru
サーバ: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2687
By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2023-07-14 12:02:43
Upgrading prime weapons turned out to be a shitshow
I understand that much, but surly the end result is better for not-sorite things, yeah? Assume that you somehow do not know that gil can be exchanged for alexandrite or swarts or mulcibar's scoria...
...how many fully augmented Nirvanas could you make in the time it takes to make one Opashoro?
Did a little back of the napkin math here, and the answer is "depending on how good you are at Sortie, anywhere from 'enough' to 'a buttload'."
What's a good solo Nyzul run now? 2500 tokens? I'm going to assume 2500. So that's 60 Nyzul, 70 Einherjar, with travel time factored in let's call that 81 hours total. Assaults... average them out to 20 minutes, there's some that take a whole half hour and some that take longer to load into than to clear. 17 hours.
We'll just call it a whole 16 hour day to get Sanraku his pictures of Spider-Man then climb the ZNM ladder four times. Also going to assume that three of the four Sarameya fights are saved for when there's a trial set for them.
Garland of Bliss suuuuucks for killshot. Not as bad as Atonement but there's just not a lot summoner can do to scale it up. Gonna call it two minutes to kill one mob. It might be closer to one minute in actual reality, but this lets us ignore travel time and breaks to question our life choices. 200 weaponskills on beasts is a bit faster if you have the gear, call that a minute a hit but less is entirely possible. 36 hours cranking out weaponskills while the magian moogle watches creepily.
Let's say an hour per chariot, give lots of time for sight-seeing, cell hunting, picking up a little alexandrite for the next run.
So, if you didn't sleep, barely took breaks to eat or go to the bathroom, you'd be spending about 72 hours on all the non-alexandrite tasks.
Looks like Bhaflau II offers an average of 200 alexandrite if every NM drops its purse, 112 if none of them do, so we'll average the averages and call that 156 per run. 193 laps through Salvage, let's call it 75 minutes each. 241 hours in there. Just for the sake of easy numbers, we'll round that off to 240, making it 10 full days.
For beitetsu, we'll assume you have six bodies to take in to avatar fights for maximum beitetsu box collecting potential. At this point nobody's still reading so I'm just going to average no beitetsu and maximum beitetsu, for 0 to 14 x 30, 210 per avatar. 48 fights, about 20 minutes with the fight and the loading and travel time, you could do it with less but I'm going to pad a little. Add another 20 minutes every seven fights to go refill merits. 18 more hours.
So we're up to 14 and a half days. Just so we don't Pandemonium Warden the whole process, let's assume a healthy 8 hours of sleep every day now, to make that 20 days total with no distractions, only FFXI.
Now, for your detritus, we'll call that an average of 12 per Omen run, which might be a little high if you're not on TH8 thief, a little low if you are, it's about what I expect on TH4 blu. Since you can store your canteens without losing time, we'll assume you're getting a full 1.2 Omen runs per day without fail, so 14.4 detritus. We'll add a full Dynamis clear every three days, 40 total volte mobs that should average about four detritus a head, for 160/run or 53.3 a day. In total, about nine days of detritus mining - and that's mostly empty time, 24 minutes a day of Omen and 40 minutes a day of Dynamis on average. I'll call that one extra day, but it doesn't necessarily need to be. So, 21 days.
Assuming you make about 39500 muffins a run and hit every run perfectly at 20 hours, gallimaufry and psyches will line up and it'll take exactly six months. If you only want to do it once a day, you need to hit ~47250 a day instead. If you're doing, say, blu cleave solo instead and pulling in 14k per run, that'll be 607 trips, 506 days hitting the timing dead on every time.
So, depending on how hardcore you are about your prime weapon, you spend from 180 to 607 days on it.
So, about 8 to 28 rank 15 Nirvanas for one stage 5 Opashoro.
Except "607 days" is more like "607 hours"
Carbuncle.Maletaru
サーバ: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2687
By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2023-07-14 12:31:36
Here's my back of the napkin:
Assaults: 10 hours
ZNM: 8 hours
Alex: 120 hours (125 alex/run, 30m per run)
Mulcibar: 24 hours
Trials: 20 hours (including ZNM)
Beitetsu: 40 hours
Detritus: 30 hours (20/hr in Omen, similar in Dynamis)
Mythic is roughly: 252 hours
For prime: 50k/hr (static doing 8/8) gets 8,500,000 in 170 runs, 1hr each.
About 1.5 primes for every Mythic.
By drakefs 2023-07-14 12:54:50
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »For prime: 50k/hr (static doing 8/8) gets 8,500,000 in 170 runs, 1hr each.
I can make a mythic in about a month and at my current farm rate of Sortie, it will take me a year+ to farm enough fry.
Including wait time: +4380 hours that you have to wait for 30 V.Psyches. I haven't seen much info on -drite drop rates for stage 4 but I would cautiously assume one will get enough before you finish farming the last 5m fry. If the person is not upgrading to stage 4 until they have 8.5m fry, then there will be more farming time on top of the 170hrs.
So, in reality, you can make ~18 Mythics per Prime but you would be spending significantly more time farming mythic mats than you would framing fry/drites.
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By LightningHelix 2023-07-14 13:01:03
So, about 8 to 28 rank 15 Nirvanas for one stage 5 Opashoro. Now this is a good post.
Carbuncle.Maletaru
サーバ: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2687
By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2023-07-14 13:10:04
So, in reality, you can make ~18 Mythics per Prime but you would be spending significantly more time farming mythic mats than you would framing fry/drites.
Yeah this is my point above: Sure it's 180 "days" if you count spending 1hr/day doing Sortie. And you're comparing that to 14hr/day farming mythic mats. Slightly disingenous.
I've said it in a bunch of other threads, but one more time for the people in the cheap seats: the differences between Prime and REM are:
1.) The grind can't be done all at once
2.) Someone else can't do the grind for you, then trade you the items (free, or for gil)
In terms of absolute grind, it's minimal, ESPECIALLY if you compare it to how those things were when they first came out. That comparison is a total joke, and Primes are laughably easy relatively speaking. Even compared to today's methods though, it's pretty on-par, or maybe slightly easier depending on how you grind them all. Except the above 2 points, you actually have to do the work yourself, over a vast period of time.
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Bismarck.Nickeny
サーバ: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2253
By Bismarck.Nickeny 2023-07-14 15:50:26
Rema vs Prime
Should be
Soloable Vs Good *** luck
[+]
Fenrir.Zenion
サーバ: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 213
By Fenrir.Zenion 2023-07-14 15:56:58
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »Upgrading prime weapons turned out to be a shitshow
I understand that much, but surly the end result is better for not-sorite things, yeah? Assume that you somehow do not know that gil can be exchanged for alexandrite or swarts or mulcibar's scoria...
...how many fully augmented Nirvanas could you make in the time it takes to make one Opashoro?
Did a little back of the napkin math here, and the answer is "depending on how good you are at Sortie, anywhere from 'enough' to 'a buttload'."
What's a good solo Nyzul run now? 2500 tokens? I'm going to assume 2500. So that's 60 Nyzul, 70 Einherjar, with travel time factored in let's call that 81 hours total. Assaults... average them out to 20 minutes, there's some that take a whole half hour and some that take longer to load into than to clear. 17 hours.
We'll just call it a whole 16 hour day to get Sanraku his pictures of Spider-Man then climb the ZNM ladder four times. Also going to assume that three of the four Sarameya fights are saved for when there's a trial set for them.
Garland of Bliss suuuuucks for killshot. Not as bad as Atonement but there's just not a lot summoner can do to scale it up. Gonna call it two minutes to kill one mob. It might be closer to one minute in actual reality, but this lets us ignore travel time and breaks to question our life choices. 200 weaponskills on beasts is a bit faster if you have the gear, call that a minute a hit but less is entirely possible. 36 hours cranking out weaponskills while the magian moogle watches creepily.
Let's say an hour per chariot, give lots of time for sight-seeing, cell hunting, picking up a little alexandrite for the next run.
So, if you didn't sleep, barely took breaks to eat or go to the bathroom, you'd be spending about 72 hours on all the non-alexandrite tasks.
Looks like Bhaflau II offers an average of 200 alexandrite if every NM drops its purse, 112 if none of them do, so we'll average the averages and call that 156 per run. 193 laps through Salvage, let's call it 75 minutes each. 241 hours in there. Just for the sake of easy numbers, we'll round that off to 240, making it 10 full days.
For beitetsu, we'll assume you have six bodies to take in to avatar fights for maximum beitetsu box collecting potential. At this point nobody's still reading so I'm just going to average no beitetsu and maximum beitetsu, for 0 to 14 x 30, 210 per avatar. 48 fights, about 20 minutes with the fight and the loading and travel time, you could do it with less but I'm going to pad a little. Add another 20 minutes every seven fights to go refill merits. 18 more hours.
So we're up to 14 and a half days. Just so we don't Pandemonium Warden the whole process, let's assume a healthy 8 hours of sleep every day now, to make that 20 days total with no distractions, only FFXI.
Now, for your detritus, we'll call that an average of 12 per Omen run, which might be a little high if you're not on TH8 thief, a little low if you are, it's about what I expect on TH4 blu. Since you can store your canteens without losing time, we'll assume you're getting a full 1.2 Omen runs per day without fail, so 14.4 detritus. We'll add a full Dynamis clear every three days, 40 total volte mobs that should average about four detritus a head, for 160/run or 53.3 a day. In total, about nine days of detritus mining - and that's mostly empty time, 24 minutes a day of Omen and 40 minutes a day of Dynamis on average. I'll call that one extra day, but it doesn't necessarily need to be. So, 21 days.
Assuming you make about 39500 muffins a run and hit every run perfectly at 20 hours, gallimaufry and psyches will line up and it'll take exactly six months. If you only want to do it once a day, you need to hit ~47250 a day instead. If you're doing, say, blu cleave solo instead and pulling in 14k per run, that'll be 607 trips, 506 days hitting the timing dead on every time.
So, depending on how hardcore you are about your prime weapon, you spend from 180 to 607 days on it.
So, about 8 to 28 rank 15 Nirvanas for one stage 5 Opashoro.
Except "607 days" is more like "607 hours"
Okay, but that wasn't the question. The question was in the time a prime weapon takes, and that means the empty hours count.
If you want the same amount of actual effort, then yeah. A single fully upgraded mythic sits at about 500 hours of play, or about as long as a solo player is going to take to make their prime. But who in their right mind is saying "I have an hour a day to play, I think I'm going to make a mythic?"
[+]
サーバ: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 19647
By Valefor.Prothescar 2023-07-14 16:08:03
Comparing someone who can get an 8/8 boss group to someone who has to solo salvage for alexandrite instead of making gil/having Gil and just buying is certainly a choice
Realistically someone who can't just buy the gil component of their Mythic is probably doing 6boss runs and I think that's still being generous
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By Meeble 2023-07-14 16:09:51
It's 2023, and ambuscade exists; An event deliberately designed to vomit forth massive quantities of currency each month, because the old 75-era grinds were just a bit much for the filthy casual sensibilities of the modern player base, what with their careers, and families, and life balance. /s
Any group capable of clearing 8/9 in Sortie on a regular basis is not going to have difficulty emptying Gorpa's shelves every month, and if you trade the currency you don't need for more of what you do, you can hit 30k alex in a few hours over a couple of months without spending any gil. Aside from Ichor, the rest of the Mythic process is substantially faster with support from a competent group, too.
Sure, it might take a fresh returnee in sparks gear 250+ hours to solo their first mythic, but that player isn't pulling in 50k muffins a day, either.
By Pantafernando 2023-07-14 16:39:30
But back to OP, i think even an Opshala stage 3 beats anything short of Nirvana?
Or does it have any other restriction outside sortie aside the WS?
If yes, then i guess a decentish team couple make an Opshala in 2 weeks.
By LightningHelix 2023-07-14 17:25:10
Valefor.Prothescar said: »Comparing someone who can get an 8/8 boss group to someone who has to solo salvage for alexandrite instead of making gil/having Gil and just buying is certainly a choice
Realistically someone who can't just buy the gil component of their Mythic is probably doing 6boss runs and I think that's still being generous I think 6 is generous if you can't just buy out the alex, yeah. But the alexandrite all has to come from somewhere...
It's 2023, and ambuscade exists; An event deliberately designed to vomit forth massive quantities of currency each month, because the old 75-era grinds were just a bit much for the filthy casual sensibilities of the modern player base, what with their careers, and families, and life balance. /s (and so, despite the number of salvage bots on Asura, this is the actually relevant point - even if you're not paying gil for alexandrite you're getting much of it at a faster rate than Salvage in 2023)
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 66
By Asura.Hotworks 2023-07-14 17:51:10
Mythics only legwork is tokens ichor and salvage trials . You ASA assaults you swipe all the mats and you easyfarm everything else.
By Taint 2023-07-14 17:55:43
Mythics only legwork is tokens ichor and salvage trials . You ASA assaults you swipe all the mats and you easyfarm everything else.
He's right you know.
By LightningHelix 2023-07-14 18:03:27
And you tako the tokens for like 10k/run. Don't forget that one.
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 66
By Asura.Hotworks 2023-07-14 18:21:10
Some guy was trying to sell 10k tokens for 5m a run like I didn’t know what was going on. I actually didn’t mind farming tokens when I was in the mood for it, would just toggle Fillmode and do 50k a day over a weekend with a friend.
Asura.Sechs
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10136
By Asura.Sechs 2023-07-14 19:27:39
Ungh 10k per run sounds generous even with tako, especially when you consider you need 1900 to start from floor 96, so that would mean ~11900 tokens per run.
I don't really know Tako too much though. I mean letting you run at 60% movement speed instead than 20% surely makes a difference, but close to 12k for every run sounds very optimistic even with that.
Or am I missing something?
[+]
Carbuncle.Maletaru
サーバ: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2687
By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2023-07-14 19:30:12
Or am I missing something?
Only the leader pays the 1900, so he only needs to achieve 10k for you to get 10k. 10k is pretty easy for a group to do (I do it routinely with 1-2 friends) so it's not unrealistic. Maybe he is tag-teaming it with a friend and splitting the 5m. That's still 5m/hr if they do 2 runs in an hour, which is pretty insane income. And this is without tako, if you're cheating you could do even better,
サーバ: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 19647
By Valefor.Prothescar 2023-07-14 19:32:37
Ungh 10k per run sounds generous even with tako, especially when you consider you need 1900 to start from floor 96, so that would mean ~11900 tokens per run.
I don't really know Tako too much though. I mean letting you run at 60% movement speed instead than 20% surely makes a difference, but close to 12k for every run sounds very optimistic even with that.
Or am I missing something?
60%! ur cute sometimes
(these *** are going 300+)
Asura.Sechs
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10136
By Asura.Sechs 2023-07-14 19:35:12
Does that even work? Doesn't the server occasionally boot your char if you run too fast for too much time? I think I remember reading this in my old LS ages ago but maybe it was about zoning too fast and not moving too fast, ungh I don't remember.
Does that even work? I mean at 300% speed it sounds like the 3D models / stuff wouldn't even load fast enough on your client. But I guess for a closed/small zone like Nyzul maybe that doesn't matter eh
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »Only the leader pays the 1900 Yes of course but I thought we were talking about "solo"? If you're solo you have to pay, you can't use a friend or a mule for that.
サーバ: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 19647
By Valefor.Prothescar 2023-07-14 19:36:48
Idk if things have changed but back in the day when I was a scalliwag the only thing that would trip if you ran too fast was going from one zoneline to another faster than the server thought you could, and even then it just wouldn't let you zone.
Carbuncle.Maletaru
サーバ: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2687
By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2023-07-14 19:42:27
Oh, I thought you were replying to Hotwerks, not LightningHelix. I doubt you could solo 10k tokens/run solo even with tako. You still have to clear all the enemies, do all the lamps (including order lamps), etc. And enemies don't have 300% speed, so you have to stop to cast on every group. I've never tried all this cheating nonsense though, so IDK if the extra time saved from seeing through walls and running at lightspeed could make you stronger than a group. I'd have some doubts when it comes to order lamps specifically because you'd still have to check all (up to) 5 of them before making a new order, and run back/forth to all of them to re-click them.
By Tarage 2023-07-14 22:39:19
My question had nothing to do with the TIME it takes to make one, or the EFFORT, but rather had anything been discovered that made it NOT AS GOOD as people previously thought.
I swear this forum loves to answer questions that weren't asked.
[+]
Asura.Eiryl
By Asura.Eiryl 2023-07-14 22:42:08
They do be doin that.
Interjecting opinions when not asked for and creating questions and scenarios that don't exist.
By Tanag 2023-07-14 22:53:21
It's pretty easy to break 12k a run solo with tako/walls as BLU just AOEing everything down. There is, of course, some luck involved with lamps and gears, but other floors are a breeze.
Honestly, movement speed helps but it's not what breaks it. The real key is abusing warp points. Set a warp as soon as you zone up to get back to the floor lamp quickly, set warps at every lamp for order, etc. It's absolutely not a fun way to play, but it sure is efficient.
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By Pantafernando 2023-07-15 02:52:53
If you can run at 300, pos hack and pass through wall, could as well just break 20k. I mean, you will only be limited by game delays.
By Tarage 2023-07-15 07:32:12
Christ okay, whatever. Yes, you can make many Mythics in the time it takes to make a single Prime. This is not new information. You have like 3 threads devoted to bitching about it. How about instead of dragging that into yet ANOTHER thread, you stay on topic. Is it really that hard? Don't post unless it relates to Opashoro being better or worse than Nirvana and what those situations are. It's really not hard. "I can make 5 Nirvanas in that time" is NOT related to the topic at hand.
DMG:304 Delay:390 INT+35 MND+35 Accuracy+35 Magic Accuracy+35 "Magic Atk. Bonus"+80 Magic Damage+325 Staff skill +277 Parrying skill +277 Magic Accuracy skill +277 Avatar: Accuracy+35 Ranged Accuracy+35 Magic Accuracy+35 Lv. +3 Blood Pact Damage +50 Oshala Aftermath (Incl. Avatars): "Magic Atk. Bonus"+ Magic Damage+
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