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Physical Damage Limit
 Asura.Bony
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10
By Asura.Bony 2023-06-06 11:13:46
I'm sure everyone is deciding on TVR rings right now...
Can someone help explain Physical Damage Limit (PDL) and when it might actually be applicable? Even scenarios or times you would have applied it would be helpful.
I know it's discussed around the forums somewhere but having a hard time finding a good answer for guidance.
What I understand so far -- I think the following applies below. Feel free comment and correct me if not:
PDL is more useful than Weaponskill Damage (WSD) when your attack is higher than the mobs
Typically your attack is capped when you have a COR, BRD, and GEO buffs in modern content (Odyssey Sheol C and bosses)
Assumptions:
Questions:
How do we know what the mob's attack is, is this an addon or somewhere on
What's the cap for WSD before you absolutely have to apply PDL, or if that's even how it works? Aka, you can't do more than 60k with WSD only (even if you are above the mob's atk)?
Thank you in advance for any input!! Let me know if the question's/information is confusing, english isn't my first language!
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サーバ: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2007
By Phoenix.Dabackpack 2023-06-06 11:54:15
The shift towards PDL is kinda weird to me because it only benefits you if you're attack-capped, which isn't realistic for the most difficult end-game content (e.g. Odyssey v25s). PDL is great for easier content like Dynamis and Ambuscade--- but then, what's the point? You still need good gear and buffs to max pDIF, at which point you probably aren't struggling with that content too much. In such cases, the PDL gear makes you deal more damage, so it makes easier content go faster, which is nice?
It's just kind of weird that the Prime weapons, for example, focus on the PDL mechanic, which makes easy content easier but doesn't necessarily affect harder content.
I think a realistic use case would be for EP parties, since you can realistically cap attack, and killing mobs faster = faster Master Levels
 Asura.Eiryl
By Asura.Eiryl 2023-06-06 11:55:24
Everyone thinks they are attack capped on everything. All the time. Always.
That's what happens when you take 5 song bard 2 cors 2 geos and 1 dd to everything.
サーバ: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2007
By Phoenix.Dabackpack 2023-06-06 12:00:16
I'll quote Byrth here, who explained it better than I do:
An implication here is that WSs with large attack boosts (Howling Fist, Ascetic's Fury, Mandalic Stab, Ground Strike, Blade: Kamu, etc.) are more likely to benefit from PDL gear.
However, it is worthwhile to note the conflict of using PDL gear. If you are already doing good damage, you are probably capped cRario and PDL will help you do better damage. If you are doing shitty damage, you are probably uncapped attack and PDL will not help you at all and tradeoffs you make to get it will probably not be worth it. This is true even for WSs with moderate attack boosts (basically everything except Ascetic's Fury and Blade: Kamu). So PDL gear helps you boost your DPS when your DPS is already high, which makes it very useful for extreme zergs (but extreme zergs are uncommon.)
So PDL gear is good when doing old content or some new content when using SP buffs and strong debuffs. In those cases, it can be a substantial boost to your damage. However, I personally do not care about doing an extra 15% damage in old content and am rarely doing Sheol - Gaol with SPs. Most of the time, PDL gear is not worth using for PDL for me. This is something you should have special builds for if you do that content, not full-time.
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By drakefs 2023-06-06 12:03:01
How do we know what the mob's attack is, is this an addon or somewhere on
Mob's Defense, not Attack.
The only way to "know" a mob's defense is through a lot of testing and math. Even then, it is a best guess.
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Phoenix.Capuchin
サーバ: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3480
By Phoenix.Capuchin 2023-06-06 12:12:33
Everyone thinks they are attack capped on everything. All the time. Always.
That's what happens when you take 5 song bard 2 cors 2 geos and 1 dd to everything.
Eiryl, will you please stop misrepresenting things? There is also obviously always a RDM doing Dia III (which is always instantly upgraded a tier with Light Shot), a DNC with level 10 Box Step, and a BST doing Corrosive Ooze Def-. On every mob. Immediately.
Or maybe your group just isn't elite enough. Some of these amateurs probably haven't even figured out how to exceed the 6 player cap in Gaol to fit all these buffers.
Quetzalcoatl.Jakey
サーバ: Quetzalcoatl
Game: FFXI
Posts: 300
By Quetzalcoatl.Jakey 2023-06-06 12:21:27
look some people just live inside a bubble... a geo bubble with songs blasting and dice rolling everywhere while their pet oozes all over everything.
Asura.Eiryl
By Asura.Eiryl 2023-06-06 12:28:04
Everyone thinks they are attack capped on everything. All the time. Always.
That's what happens when you take 5 song bard 2 cors 2 geos and 1 dd to everything.
Eiryl, will you please stop misrepresenting things? There is also obviously always a RDM doing Dia III (which is always instantly upgraded a tier with Light Shot), a DNC with level 10 Box Step, and a BST doing Corrosive Ooze Def-. On every mob. Immediately.
Or maybe your group just isn't elite enough. Some of these amateurs probably haven't even figured out how to exceed the 6 player cap in Gaol to fit all these buffers.
Yeah, they only take those when they have to. Waiting for the meta to realize that dnc bst and blu will be the only dds because there's no way "real" dd can cap def- without them but there's only one dd slot
More people do seem to be coming around to realizing they need shell crusher/ageha/full break etc but it's not as common as it should be
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 964
By Bahamut.Justthetip 2023-06-06 12:29:41
Everyone thinks they are attack capped on everything. All the time. Always.
That's what happens when you take 5 song bard 2 cors 2 geos and 1 dd to everything.
Eiryl, will you please stop misrepresenting things? There is also obviously always a RDM doing Dia III (which is always instantly upgraded a tier with Light Shot), a DNC with level 10 Box Step, and a BST doing Corrosive Ooze Def-. On every mob. Immediately.
Or maybe your group just isn't elite enough. Some of these amateurs probably haven't even figured out how to exceed the 6 player cap in Gaol to fit all these buffers. My god couldn't have said it better myself I'm so sick of seeing people they attack capped in most content. Even in namis not every job is attack capped. People seem to forget all the ***you need to get everyone attack capped.
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サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 645
By Asura.Iamaman 2023-06-06 13:05:25
So if you are attack capped, then bring in PDL gear, do you have to boost attack further to take advantage of it? So if I bring in 30% PDL gear, does the amount of attack needed to take advantage of it scale with the PDL added?
[li]Typically your attack is capped when you have a COR, BRD, and GEO buffs in modern content (Odyssey Sheol C and bosses)[/li]
Are you really attack capped in that content? I'd be shocked if you could reasonably cap against Odyssey bosses or even higher floors in Sheol C, but I suppose it depends on the mob type as well?
Quetzalcoatl.Tomasello
サーバ: Quetzalcoatl
Game: FFXI
Posts: 269
By Quetzalcoatl.Tomasello 2023-06-06 13:06:44
Here's how you know ballpark whether you are "attack capped or not" (This doesn't work for multihits, elemental or fTP transfer WS.)
Go to Ceizak Battlegrounds hp #1 on your favorite dps /war. Pop Berserk, Warcry and weaponskill a bee at 3k tp. Remember that number.
Now when your farming segments in ody, killing dynamis mobs, whatever, use the same 1-hit (two hits that are front loaded like savage are okay too) weaponskill at 3k tp. If the number is the around the same then you are attack capped, if it's not you need more attack.
Obviously, consider whether the mob has an innate resistance to physical damage or is weak to your weapon type, etc. before you make a determination.
It's crude but will give you a barometer of what type of buffs you should be asking for if you're a Joe Schmo casual player...
By Taint 2023-06-06 13:07:08
So if you are attack capped, then bring in PDL gear, do you have to boost attack further to take advantage of it? So if I bring in 30% PDL gear, does the amount of attack needed to take advantage of it scale with the PDL added?
[li]Typically your attack is capped when you have a COR, BRD, and GEO buffs in modern content (Odyssey Sheol C and bosses)[/li]
Are you really attack capped in that content? I'd be shocked if you could reasonably cap against Odyssey bosses or even higher floors in Sheol C, but I suppose it depends on the mob type as well?
Yes, PDL raising the ceiling, you still need to fill the void.
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By Meeble 2023-06-06 14:14:36
[li]Typically your attack is capped when you have a COR, BRD, and GEO buffs in modern content (Odyssey Sheol C and bosses)[/li]
Are you really attack capped in that content? I'd be shocked if you could reasonably cap against Odyssey bosses or even higher floors in Sheol C, but I suppose it depends on the mob type as well?
Defense debuffs are crucial. Because PDIF is a ratio between your attack and your target's defense, buffing attack alone will only get you so far.
Say you have 1000 attack and your target has 1000 Def, your ratio would be 1(1000/1000).
Boost your attack by 25% and your ratio goes up to 1.25(1250/1000).
Reducing the target's Defense by 25% instead boosts your ratio to 1.33(1000/750).
Do both and you'll even better off, with a ratio of 1.66(1250/750).
(these example ratios are all very low and well below the PDIF caps for any job/weapon combo)
Continuing to raise your attack or lower target defense will increase your PDIF up to the cap for your job/weapon combination. Adding PDL increases the cap, but also increases the values you need to reach the new limit.
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Carbuncle.Maletaru
サーバ: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1640
By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2023-06-06 14:37:42
Defense debuffs are crucial. Because PDIF is a ratio between your attack and your target's defense, buffing attack alone will only get you so far.
Say you have 1000 attack and your target has 1000 Def, your ratio would be 1(1000/1000).
Boost your attack by 25% and your ratio goes up to 1.25(1250/1000).
Reducing the target's Defense by 25% instead boosts your ratio to 1.33(1000/750).
Do both and you'll even better off, with a ratio of 1.66(1250/750).
Agree with all of this, just one caveat to add: attack boosts are WAY more common than defense down, and defense down has a hard limit where attack can go to the moon. There are also base increases to attack (Minuets) which help tremendously when used in tandem with %-based attack boosts. So it's a lot easier to get 25% attack than it is -25% defense. Indi-Fury and Chaos roll alone are more than 100% attack bonus, without even considering minuets, berserk, or any other bonuses you may receive (Bolster, SV, etc.).
That said, if you're trying to cap attack on a high level enemy, you will certainly need defense down and its effects cannot be understated. If you think having Chaos, Minuet, and Fury alone are capping you on high-end content you are sorely mistaken.
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Asura.Eiryl
By Asura.Eiryl 2023-06-06 14:47:32
It would be nice if NMs (actual nms, not apex/locus etc) had att/def displays so you could actually know. And the bonus of knowing if/when defense down affects land. Or even if libra showed it, it'd be better than nothing.
If they want PDL on everything, it would be a big qol thing.
By Meeble 2023-06-06 15:17:14
I wouldn't say Defense debuffs are uncommon, but most of them have to be applied to each target individually, making them less useful for large groups of enemies you can kill easily. Gaol's SJ restriction can also cut down your options.
On most boss content, though, there are lots of options. For example, GEO/RDM alone can get you to -40% defense with Shell Crusher and Dia II, even on content where offensive Geomancy is nerfed.
Running BRD + COR instead? Go BRD/whm and COR/dnc and Shell Crusher, Box Step, Dia II + Light Shot will get you to -65% defense.
Carbuncle.Maletaru
サーバ: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1640
By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2023-06-06 15:27:51
Shell Crusher: 25%
Box Step: 13%?
Dia + Light shot: 18%
56%?
Box step is confusing because the page says it stacks 10 times (referring to DNC main) and says 5%+2% for each subsequent stack, but the daze page says it's based on your (presumably DNC) level? Some clarification there would be nice. Maybe that's why I'm not getting 65%
Also gonna be really awkward getting 1000 TP as a BRD/WHM with a staff. Depends on the content I guess.
 Shiva.Flowen
サーバ: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 517
By Shiva.Flowen 2023-06-06 15:56:39
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »Box step is confusing because the page says it stacks 10 times (referring to DNC main) and says 5%+2% for each subsequent stack, but the daze page says it's based on your (presumably DNC) level? Some clarification there would be nice. Maybe that's why I'm not getting 65%
Daze page is just out of date/wrong (says charis/mac toe shoes effect box in addition to feather step too). Should be -23% for dnc main, -13% for dnc sub.
My sortie team (Sam, Brd, Cor) are certainly making use of the PDL on ephramad's when under SV, Chaos roll, Dia IV (Trust Dia 3 + Light shot), Ageha vs. basement nms. I dont recall seeing these numbers with a WSD focused set:
This kind of damage is a spike of course but average is higher, and another aspect to consider is that WSD is only being added to the first hit of your WS. PDL is impacting the multihit procs too, resulting in more damage on these procs.
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By Meeble 2023-06-06 16:40:51
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »Shell Crusher: 25%
Box Step: 13%?
Dia + Light shot: 18%
56%?
Box step is confusing because the page says it stacks 10 times (referring to DNC main) and says 5%+2% for each subsequent stack, but the daze page says it's based on your (presumably DNC) level? Some clarification there would be nice. Maybe that's why I'm not getting 65%
Also gonna be really awkward getting 1000 TP as a BRD/WHM with a staff. Depends on the content I guess.
Yeah, you're right. I was counting 10 steps, not 5.
Nyame and Xoanon/Mpaca's Staff should be more than enough for BRD/WHM to get TP and land the additional effect, but if you're still whiffing... well, you're a bard.
サーバ: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2007
By Phoenix.Dabackpack 2023-06-07 10:01:41
SE mentioned something about the Prime weapons having some kind of "special effect" against mobs or bosses in Sortie. Keeping in mind the PDL aftermaths, I'm reminded of weapons like Coruscanti that "occasionally ignore defenae", i.e. cap pDIF.
I wonder if for the Prime weapons, there's a hidden effect like that in Sortie--- it would make the whole PDL aftermath + Aria of Passion situation make more sense.
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 645
By Asura.Iamaman 2023-06-07 10:09:22
Phoenix.Dabackpack said: »SE mentioned something about the Prime weapons having some kind of "special effect" against mobs or bosses in Sortie.
Unless it was said somewhere else, the quote from the update was:
Quote: Certain Sortie notorious monsters now behave differently depending on the stage of the Prime Weapon you are carrying.
Could be translated wrong, could mean there is some behavior change, or could be like Disclai said, just means they are dropping items relative to the stage you are on.
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I'm sure everyone is deciding on TVR rings right now...
Can someone help explain Physical Damage Limit (PDL) and when it might actually be applicable? Even scenarios or times you would have applied it would be helpful.
I know it's discussed around the forums somewhere but having a hard time finding a good answer for guidance.
What I understand so far -- I think the following applies below. Feel free comment and correct me if not:
PDL is more useful than Weaponskill Damage (WSD) when your attack is higher than the mobs
Typically your attack is capped when you have a COR, BRD, and GEO buffs in modern content (Odyssey Sheol C and bosses)
Assumptions:
Questions:
How do we know what the mob's attack is, is this an addon or somewhere on
What's the cap for WSD before you absolutely have to apply PDL, or if that's even how it works? Aka, you can't do more than 60k with WSD only (even if you are above the mob's atk)?
Thank you in advance for any input!! Let me know if the question's/information is confusing, english isn't my first language!
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