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Most Worthless Moves In FFXI?
 Phoenix.Capuchin
サーバ: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3628
By Phoenix.Capuchin 2024-10-07 19:44:10
Mijin Gakure doesn't belong anywhere near this list, it's actually a pretty useful tool. Who doesn't want to be able to completely get rid of weakness? I use this move regularly.
If you die on NIN and the ability is up, get up, use Mijin to die again (with no exp penalty), and raise back up again to unweakened status. Saves several minutes of being weakened on your first death every 45min-1hr. Nagi even gives you a free Reraise (though you can also just pop a RR item before using Mijin, or have someone else raise you).
I can absolutely understand the argument of "it's underwhelming for an SP ability". But it does have actual practical uses.
It got a lot of use back when Charm was a thing in order to successfully charm mobs higher level than your character.
Useless because Charm is useless.
Ultra-niche use, but Tame can also de-aggro mobs that are susceptible. So even if you don't care about using Charm, Tame retains a very specific alternate use.
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Asura.Eiryl
By Asura.Eiryl 2024-10-07 19:58:10
I'm surprised there hasn't been a mention of formless strikes.
Last known use circa 2014(ish) delve.
The comment on bloodpacts definitely gets it though. Not only are you not using a better ability, but also locked out of it for 20 seconds. This is key to most unused ja, they aren't just useless, they negatively affect you.
By Pantafernando 2024-10-07 20:01:21
But damn, it was that important at that time.
The ability still retain its value. Its just the current content that doesnt requires it anymore.
By Pantafernando 2024-10-07 20:05:24
Mijin Gakure doesn't belong anywhere near this list, it's actually a pretty useful tool. Who doesn't want to be able to completely get rid of weakness? I use this move regularly.
If you die on NIN and the ability is up, get up, use Mijin to die again (with no exp penalty), and raise back up again to unweakened status. Saves several minutes of being weakened on your first death every 45min-1hr. Nagi even gives you a free Reraise (though you can also just pop a RR item before using Mijin, or have someone else raise you).
And there is a hidden use of Mijin Gakure: it never fails to make people around to have at least a little laugh.
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Asura.Eiryl
By Asura.Eiryl 2024-10-07 20:06:12
It was also an incredible claim tool. No claim delay on mijin.
Many a mijin claim on ground kings for a hot minute.
 Cerberus.Kylos
サーバ: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4473
By Cerberus.Kylos 2024-10-07 20:42:51
Mijin seems to have one too many uses to be considered worthless, so I'm not going with that. Also, Sange is so far on the fence for some that it is borderline worthless, but not entirely. Tame can work a bit like Hide, so I can see how that isn't.
What about Eagle Eye Shot and Mikage? Or Blaze Spikes and Shock Spikes?
By Nariont 2024-10-07 21:15:43
EES is free dump of dmg, cant really call it worthless
Mikage is also just free dmg, plus breaks the SB cap so its got some appeal there even if its duration isnt great
Blaze spikes is again, free dmg just on hit, shock spikes can be a decent stun, same as ice spikes that if it lands its usually fairly potent. Be nice if the log said when the stun took effect as atleast for shock its all just kind of visual, you dont know the mobs stunned until you see it hasnt swung at its normal time.
Cerberus.Kylos
サーバ: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4473
By Cerberus.Kylos 2024-10-07 21:27:42
1. Charm / Gauge
2. Modus Veritas
3. Unlimited / Flashy / Stealth Shot
4. Assassin's Charge / Warrior's Charge
5. Concentric Pulse
6. Tranquility / Equanimity
7. Smiting Breath
8. Scholar's / Avenger's / Courser's / Choral Roll
9. Absorb-CHR
10. Aspir Samba
Looks like 18 moves in 10 categories so far, although I have yet to add any blood pacts. Speaking of which, would we not consider Odin, Atomos and the Astral Flow BPs to go with those already mentioned? I can't remember seeing anyone use Atomos since it was introduced, and the last time I saw Odin was in Abyssea.
By Tarage 2024-10-07 21:35:30
1. Charm / Gauge
2. Modus Veritas
3. Unlimited / Flashy / Stealth Shot
4. Assassin's Charge / Warrior's Charge
5. Concentric Pulse
6. Tranquility / Equanimity
7. Smiting Breath
8. Scholar's / Avenger's / Courser's / Choral Roll
9. Absorb-CHR
10. Aspir Samba
Looks like 18 moves in 10 categories so far, although I have yet to add any blood pacts. Speaking of which, would we not consider Odin, Atomos and the Astral Flow BPs to go with those already mentioned? I can't remember seeing anyone use Atomos since it was introduced, and the last time I saw Odin was in Abyssea. Atomos has use. Odin I can't think of a single reason to ever waste a 1hr on Odin when you can use it on anything else. Hell, even NOT using it and just keeping the effect up is useful.
Then again, I forgot about normal non-siren AFs. Those haven't been useful since astral burning.
By Mavii 2024-10-07 22:17:10
It's been 20 years and Hydro Shot probably hasn't been even theoretically useful to a single player in that time. Bad damage, only a chance to proc an effect that far as anyone can tell doesn't do near enough to matter and may not actually work at all, and it sets Rapid Shot on a job with no meaningful access to bows or guns.
Put another way: it's so useless we all forget it exists.
 Quetzalcoatl.Carste
サーバ: Quetzalcoatl
Game: FFXI
By Quetzalcoatl.Carste 2024-10-07 22:49:01
8. Scholar's / Avenger's / Courser's / Choral Roll
Choral Roll has it's place if using a WHM to hold adds in odyssey v25. For Ngai, Xevioso, and Kalunga with choral/gallant, I was able to avoid having to delay casts timing between swings or having full SIRD in every set.
Lakshmi.Buukki
By Lakshmi.Buukki 2024-10-07 23:52:10
Did you just say Atomos???? Do y'all have any idea what these abilities actually do or y'all just be saying stuff? Atomos is a solid ability. One of the most unique skills in the game via an unblocked dispel and buff transfer. I see Mikage also listed above, what are we doing here?
I see Frod mentioned Pavor Nocturnus earlier. I know the death effect never lands, but isn't the dispel practically guaranteed, giving SMN another way to dispel without being resisted? I fall to see how that move can be considered worthless
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サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 515
By Asura.Thunderjet 2024-10-08 01:06:18
Remember people using odin for something pre adoulin cant quite remember maybe one of thr last vw nms
Phoenix.Capuchin
サーバ: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3628
By Phoenix.Capuchin 2024-10-08 01:27:10
EES is free dump of dmg, cant really call it worthless
Mikage is also just free dmg, plus breaks the SB cap so its got some appeal there even if its duration isnt great
Agreed on both.
For EES, you can kind of think of it as something like a free WS, with some interesting properties (ignores Blink/Utsusemi, can crit). I find that most people don't actually bother to gear well for EES, but with a good crit build similar to what you might use for an Empyrean aftermath up set, it's respectable extra damage. And EES is, if nothing else, the most stylish way to finish a mob - it gives me great pleasure every single time I score a killshot with EES.
Mikage has limitations too, with short duration and requirement to have shadows up. But it's arguably NIN's best native zerg tool for those extra attacks in the 45 second window (not that it has a ton of great competition, Sange is the other leading candidate). Extra damage is extra damage.
This one gets some bonus points due to being bad when players use it, but surprisingly devastating from mobs like wave 3 Dyna Divergence GEOs lol (see also "WTF did I just get 1-shotted with Shadowstitch?")
1. Charm / Gauge
4. Assassin's Charge / Warrior's Charge
I have a little bit of sympathy for these ones simply because they are just obsolete. You wouldn't use them now, but at least at some point in the game's life they had value. Yeah, I guess they could have revamped the moves somehow, but just being outdated doesn't feel the same to me as some stuff that was just never good.
And speaking of outdated BST things: to a lesser extent, Familiar is also not very impressive any more in a world where BSTs no longer charm monsters. It used to be awesome to charm a tough monster then lock in that charm for a long duration, but when using it with jug pets it's just Pet: HP+10%, and can add pet haste+10% if you use it with BST relic legs. Not absolutely nothing, but still in the bottom tier of SP moves.
By Genoxd 2024-10-08 02:08:17
Odin actually had some good uses. Last boss in Incursion had adds that were not NMs which Odin could land death on.
I am shocked, I don't think anyone mentioned "Level ? Holy". It's fun to play with but does nothing most of the time for 235 MP.
Special mention, imo, to Titan's "ranged" attacks since they seem to miss all the time.
By BlackmoreKnight 2024-10-08 02:15:24
Not the most in the know guy about WHM, but always felt like why choose Affaltus Misery over Afflatus Solace?
I guess maybe the extra debuff removal on Misery could be nice from Esuna, but I feel like WHM/sch in Solace would still be almost as effective anyway with JSE neck.
It is strictly used for the extra debuff removal combined with Esuna, yes. In that regard I found it to be a fairly useful stop-gap stance to use in earlier Gaol tiers and the "easier"/PUG-level Sortie bosses when I did them on WHM to sort of "outplay/outskill" not having a Yagrush. Bosses and enemies in these instances have party-wide debuffs that you can Esuna only under Misery, and staying in Misery a lot of the time helped me play around these things easier than when I tried to do it in just Solace with the sub SCH abilities, the other way to sort of outplay not having that piece of gear.
It is, of course, a utility that goes away almost the instant that you get a Yagrush and remove most sense of thought from the WHM debuff removal game, but I didn't enjoy the process of getting a Yagrush so I didn't get one and just used the other tools the game provided me to try and outplay things instead. Is there a point in further content where the WHM would only be able to keep up with both the healing and debuff concerns by sitting in Solace and having a Yagrush? No doubt. Particularly since the Misery Esuna strategy involves eating the debuffs yourself either via being in them (potentially dangerous) or using Sacrifice (eating another cast).
Part of why I stopped playing XI (for now, at any rate) was because I was reaching the point where I felt I needed gear I wasn't going to have fun getting to continue progressing (so what's the point) but if you want to see some below average WHM gameplay in the easy part of Sortie using Misery I have the A boss where I do that here on an old clip I made of the run to show XI to some not-XI friends. Judge me on the gameplay all you like, it worked for the level of content I cared to do with the people who cared to do it with me.
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Bahamut.Kaiylie
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 22
By Bahamut.Kaiylie 2024-10-08 02:53:51
I have actually and justifiably been asked to not use Drain and Aspir Sambas as a joke because the effects make it impossible to see just about anything. They're definitely worse than useless.
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By Shichishito 2024-10-08 03:53:44
Ok I guess you don't know how blue magic works. Without CA or Efflux or SP, your physical blue magic spells are cast as 0TP. The amount of TP you have is irrelevant. Tourbillion is locked behind unbridled learning/wisdom and unbridled learning is pretty much reserved for Mighty Guard.
So when you cast Tourbillion chances are you've used Unbridled Wisdom and if we already going in SP territory might as well pop Azure Lore, I wouldn't know what else to safe it for.
But I'm not familiar with gaol and sortie basement bosses, maybe you save Unbridled learning for a second Tourbillion for some reason I'm not aware of.
I'm surprised there hasn't been a mention of formless strikes.
Last known use circa 2014(ish) delve. I'm not sure how effective it is but it might have a place for peach power?
By Shichishito 2024-10-08 04:00:48
It's been 20 years and Hydro Shot probably hasn't been even theoretically useful to a single player in that time. I don't know if the we should open the BLU spell can of worms in this thread cause the questionable entries are so plenty full.
Maybe should make a seperate thread for this.
Speaking of BLU, where is Draylo? He usually pops out like a djin from his lamp once you mention this topic.
By Tarage 2024-10-08 04:13:28
Special mention, imo, to Titan's "ranged" attacks since they seem to miss all the time.
Oh god, Titan. I remember back in the day, before I got my Nirvana, I made all of the Magian -perp -bp delay staves. For those that don't know, these required you to at some steps get a killshot with the Avatar associated with the element. Titan had *** bees. Of all the avatars, I learned to *** hate Titan wiffing and the bee doing final sting wasting my time. I don't know why SE made Titan have such horrible accuracy but it hurt.
 Asura.Sechs
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10133
By Asura.Sechs 2024-10-08 04:19:49
A lot of gear that is part of NIN's TP set nowadays has both acc and racc. My "99%" was obviously an hyperbole.
But your "a lot of gear" feels like a bit of an exageration. Sure there's multiple good options, thankfully, but the result is still the same, in the majority of content where you really need high amount of acc to reach the cap rate, your melee hits will be capped and your Ranged will move around ~60%
Which is still good, it's better than nothing, but it still annoys me immensely.
I know I'm probably being a bit too OCD and this is probably not the main NIN issue.
Sange activation ignores Daken, and will always consume a shuriken every attack round, regardless of how much Daken you have. You can go out and test it easily: Ranked Tsuru/Kunimitsu/AF+3 hands/Relic+3 body/JSE+2 neck should put you at 114% Daken rate. Pop Sange, you will still consume ammo. That's what I thought!
Why I was super surprised when I read Miyamoto's post :-D
By SimonSes 2024-10-08 04:24:37
Tourbillion is locked behind unbridled learning/wisdom and unbridled learning is pretty much reserved for Mighty Guard.
So when you cast Tourbillion chances are you've used Unbridled Wisdom and if we already going in SP territory might as well pop Azure Lore, I wouldn't know what else to safe it for.
But I'm not familiar with gaol and sortie basement bosses, maybe you save Unbridled learning for a second Tourbillion for some reason I'm not aware of.
If you do gaol chances are you are not doing 1KI fight, so you will either save SP1 for next KI, or you have already used it in previous. In general using SP just to add TP to one spell is kinda pointless exactly because Efflux exists.
 Bahamut.Illumin
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 13
By Bahamut.Illumin 2024-10-08 04:26:03
I'm surprised no one has mentioned Goblin Gavotte or similar songs.
By Dodik 2024-10-08 04:58:27
Hey now, without those songs what will we use for dummy songs? Inb4 "you don't need dummy songs".
By Shichishito 2024-10-08 05:00:57
If you do gaol chances are you are not doing 1KI fight, so you will either save SP1 for next KI, or you have already used it in previous. In general using SP just to add TP to one spell is kinda pointless exactly because Efflux exists. Yeah, Azure Lore is definitely bottom tier SP, strong contender for the list.
GEO:
Indi- and Geo-Poison
Clear Mind trait also seems missplaced in todays FFXI.
By Pantafernando 2024-10-08 05:03:47
You need all songs in case you decide to make an alliance of 18 4 songs BRDs doing 5 songs with rotation between parties.
I actually think we need more songs for those situations
By Dodik 2024-10-08 05:12:35
Max songs you can have is 10 afaik, so no go unfortunately.
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Asura.Sechs
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10133
By Asura.Sechs 2024-10-08 05:18:40
Max songs you can have is 10 afaik, so no go unfortunately. 12 if I recall.
This overall cap is shared between Rolls and Songs.
So with 2 rolls the cap would be 10 songs for instance.
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Lakshmi.Byrth
VIP
サーバ: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6187
By Lakshmi.Byrth 2024-10-08 05:22:01
Despite the earlier talk about people abusing Modus back when it still worked, I'm not even sure that's true. Iirc someone posted a proof of concept video where they almost killed AV with like 6 Modus and SE nerfed the ability before they managed to kill it that way?
https://kanican.livejournal.com/41053.html#cutid1
For Dancer, I submit the Aspir Sambas (honestly closely followed by the Drain Sambas). MP is useless to most melee jobs, definitely worth less than Haste, MP drained doesn't reduce monster MP, it doesn't work on undead iirc, and the MP drained is proportional to delay (rounded down) so if you are stacking delay reduction you drain almost nothing per hit. It is mostly closely analogous to a Refresh that you need high accuracy to benefit from. Same critique for drain samba except HP.
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By Drayco 2024-10-08 05:49:08
There is two catagories for this conversation. Abilities that have always been worthless and abilities that are worthless today.
Aspir Samba was absolutely incredible on PLD/DNC back in 75 days. It was always better than Drain Samba in party content for any front line jobs that had MP. I played PLD DRK and BLU a lot back then, so maybe I seen more usefulness from it than people that played SAM and WAR.
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As the title suggests, I'm looking to concoct a list of FFXI moves that are so ineffective they might as well not exist. However, I'm only adding moves that can be adequately explained as to why they are worthless at least 95% of the time. There are always going to be niche uses for some moves. Let's take Steal on Thief for example. It may not see as much use in 2024 as it did back in the day, but it remains useful for stealing buffs and Impish Boxes.
I'd like to begin with Modus Veritas on Scholar. Heavily abused back when introduced, SE nerfed it so hard that nobody has used it for anything meaningful ever since.
Description: Increases damage done by helix spells while lowering spell duration by 50%.
If the ability lands, the DoT effect of the Helix will be doubled, and the remaining duration will be halved. Resist rate is high even on regular enemies, and extremely high on NMs. Modus Veritas will always fail if the current potency of the Helix effect is 5,000 or higher.
There are two reasons why Veritas became useless.
1) The resist rate is so high on everything, and even more so for NM (the prime target for putting a Helix on), that it doesn't work most of the time.
2) It only makes sense to use on a low damage Helix. Scholars aim for a Helix effect of 10k, which is the cap. Therefore, if a player hit a 4k Helix and then used Modus Veritas, they would get a 8k Helix for with a lower duration. But that's only if it lands. Most Scholars would prefer to Magic Burst another Helix to cap, or at least get close to capping.
Does it have any use? Perhaps. When a player is in a situation where setting up a skillchain to Magic Burst isn't viable, then they could nuke a Helix and boost it further with Modus, but that only makes sense if the target won't last for a long time, and if they know it won't resist, which it probably will, so why bother? I'm not clued up on the most advanced endgame strategies in Odyssey, so maybe it has found some use somewhere? Feel free to confirm it has. Please be encouraged to add your own moves here with an explanation. Thank you.
Edit: This is the list I made from the comments. Please know that it is subjective, and some of the moves may still be viable in exceptionally rare scenarios.
1. Charm / Gauge
2. Modus Veritas
3. Unlimited / Flashy / Stealth Shot
4. Assassin's Charge / Warrior's Charge
5. Concentric Pulse
6. Tranquility / Equanimity
7. Smiting Breath
8. Scholar's / Avenger's / Courser's Roll
9. Any CHR boosting spells and songs
10. Aspir Samba
11. Odin
12. Astral Flow Blood Pacts
(minus Clarsach Call, Altana's Favor & Perfect Defense)
13. Level ? Holy
14. Brave Hero Glenn
15. Deodorize
16. Many BLU spells (look at Maletaru's list to agree/dispute)
17. Enspell II
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