Controller Vs. Keyboard, LFG...

Obviously, text-only doesn't count. You can't hear them struggle or panic or freakout when they didn't prepare like they were suppose to.

PTT is common courtesy, lack of it doesn't imply a bad player, just an inconsiderate person.

OK, that's fair and much more accurate way to quantify the situation.

Two examples of controller being faster.

Still waiting for an example of anything a keyboard can do that controller can't.

This is a person arguing in bad faith, with zero experience in having ever used a controller that thinks controller macro bars work like ctrl/alt that you need to hold down and click left/right every time to go to what you need.

Failing reading comprehension and arguing in bad faith. The double whammy.

If your talking vanilla play then they are prob the same its comfort level at that point. But if you allow add-ons in any form to this conversation a controller will never be faster then a keyboard. I type 95% of what I do nothing is faster then shortcuts and key binds.

No, No voice coms indicates someone that doesn’t want to talk to people. I spend most of my life avoiding talking to people and I’m not gonna make an exception here.

PTT isn't voice comms in general, it's a push-to-talk button so others don't have to hear you shoving cheetos down your throat or whatever other noises are in your background when you aren't intentionally talking.

I don't see how it relates to the thread, though.

Yeah not wanting to use voice is fine, keeping a mic on at all times was the complaint. I think Felgarr was trying to show that unprepared players with hot mics often make a fool of themselves when caught off guard.

Yes, precisely!

Kaffy paraphrased my point pretty well:

What in the world are you talking about?

For targets to your left:
KB: Enter, shift+tab, enter.
Controller: X, left, X

For targets to your right:
KB: Enter, tab, enter
Controller: X, right, X

We're counting "hold the shift key" as being slower...? Um...I guess? Both sides need to "choose immediately whether to go left or right" and both side "require multiple key presses"

If going specifically to the left, sure, KB is 1 more held key.


OK so let's look at two scenarios:

Need to hit the same macro 50 times in a row:
KB: Hold Ctrl, hit 1 50 times
Controller: Hit R2, hit X 50 times

I doubt this scenario ever comes up but maybe I'm just not playing boring enough jobs.

Need to hit multiple macros:
KB: Hold Ctrl hit 1, Hold Ctrl 2, Hold Ctrl 4, Hold Ctrl 6, Hold Ctrl 8
Controller: Hit R2, hit X, hold right hit X, hold right hit X, hold right hit X, hold right hit X

This of course assumes you never need to use an alt macro...but I'm really failing to see how "hold right and then let go of it at a specific timing" is quicker than "hold ctrl". I've never noticed the .2 seconds it takes for the menu to appear at the top of the screen and if there is any delay caused by it I've never noticed it. I'd be very surprised if the time it takes to get from Ctrl 6 to ctrl 1 is faster than the time it takes for the macro palette to appear at the top of the screen after hitting ctrl.

Inb4: "just have similar macros close to each other". If you have 20 macros and use all 20 of them, at some point you have to make it from one end to the other, which involves (at least) 10 movements of your selection from one end to the other, assuming you did everything in exactly 1-10 order, every time. You know how much time it takes KB to get from 1-10? 0 seconds. All macros are exactly as fast as each other, no matter how they're laid out or what your last action was.


You're right, as long as you just COMPLETELY IGNORE the button press(es) you did with "pre-select the one you want" then yup, it's only 1 press. I can do that too: on KB all you need to do is pre-hold ctrl and then hit the macro you want with one button. This is the dumbest ***I've ever read.

Dodik's argument:

KB: Loses time because between actions when you're holding the ctrl key you wait for AGES for the menu to pop up. Loses time because holding shift before pressing tab is a ton of extra work.
Controller: Eh, whatever, you've got time between actions to hold the dpad to the right until you end up on the macro of your choice, the game isn't that fast anyway who cares?

Umm...anyone notice a small flaw in the standards these are being held to?

Once again, you showcase your complete lack of understanding.

Controller does not need to hold anything to keep macro bar open. Controller can also keep macro bar open and still move both character and camera.

Where's the example of anything a keyboard can do that controller can't again?

Where did I say that?


Type in linkshell chat.

OK: they can type in linkshell chat, by using the software keyboard (lol) but it's absolutely dogshit and takes every fiber of your being to do it. Speaking of which...



So can KB/M.
Numpad to move character
Ctrl/alt to hold open the macro palette
Mouse to move camera.

It's pretty unpleasant, TBH, but absolutely not impossible to do on KB. Try again if you'd like.




Reminds me of someone I know...

Oh, actually I realized I was wrong about something.

KB doesn't need to re-hold Ctrl for each macro they want to press, so the comparison for multi-macro presses is better represented this way:

Need to hit multiple macros:
KB: Hold Ctrl hit 1, hit 2, hit 4, hit 6, hit 8
Controller: Hit R2, hit X, hold right hit X, hold right hit X, hold right hit X, hold right hit X

Further demonstrating how ridiculous the comparison is between the two. Tell me again how "hold right hit x" is faster than "hit 6"?

To clarify your position: a button hold and then a button press is faster than a button press (for the macro presses I illustrated above), but a button hold and then a button press is slower than a button press (shift+tab vs left on dpad)?

Just want to make sure I'm following the logic.

Considering only the number of button presses is disregarding the distance of travel, which is biased in controller's favor;

i.e. how far must you move your hands to get from your 'home row' to move two hands into position to alt+4 and from there moving to alt+1? And how many inches of travel is that relative to distance of travel of pressing the same arrow key multiple times (or holding the same down) when your fingers are already situated there at all times?

If we want to get into the weeds, may as well go all the way in :p

Good point, but I, like most people, have more than 1 finger. I typically have my pinky (or thumb) on ctrl/alt, then I can have several of the number keys covered by multiple fingers at once, so the travel time is only relevant every n macros, where n is the number of non-pinky fingers you can reach keys with.

Actually, I normally don't put much thought into what my hands are doing, but after thinking about it...I think when I'm not moving I just use my right hand for the number keys...IDK, it's so ridiculously easy that I don't normally register that I'm actually doing anything. Whichever hand/finger is closest does it. I have 10 of them (not to brag).

With a controller player and a kb player hovered over the same correct macro at the same time, the distance of travel to depress a kb key is still deeper than a controller face key.

Further, you're engaging significantly more muscle groups splaying your fingers out that way vs 2 thumbs, which will necessarily incite faster muscle fatigue and slower response times

Depends on the type of KB, honestly. There are plenty of keyboards with extremely little travel time for depressing a key. Even still...you're going to try to tell me that pressing (or holding, depending where the macro is on your bar and where you are right now) and THEN pressing a second button, is faster than pressing a single keyboard key? I vehemently disagree.


There's no chance any amount of measurable muscle fatigue is happening while using a keyboard. Response times are a matter of reaction speeds (in the eyes/brain) and not related to your muscles. At least for key presses. We're not talking about Olympic archery here, we're talking about pressing a key on a keyboard. A 2 year old can press a key on a keyboard. A very heavy bird's feather could probably press a key.

So your example of something a keyboard can do but not controller, and I was talking about gameplay which you know, is type in ls chat...



You don't need to hold it, which I've repeated about a dozen times now.

And you're saying holding ctrl/alt with your less dominant fingers, all the way to the side of the keyboard, is the same as tapping, not holding, a controller button? Are you secretly an octopus?

Seems you're being purposefully obtuse, so have fun.

OK...you explain to me how to get from Macro 1 on your R2 palette to macro 4 on your R2 palette without holding right then.

I was being generous in saying that you hold right instead of putting right right X

I originally said that controller has to press right right right right right X, then you got butthurt and insisted that you can just hold right. Now you're upset that I put hold right. WTF are you on about?

For this macro set (arbitrary, pick whatever you want):
Ctrl 1, 2, 3, 5, 7
KB: Hold ctrl press 1, press 2, press 3, press 5, press 7
Controller option 1: Press R2, Press X, press right, press X, press right, press X, press right, press right, press X, press right, press right, press X
Controller option 2: Press R2, Press X, Press right, press X, press right, press X, hold right, press X, hold right, press X

What you described, using a pinky to hit control/alt and keeping 3 other fingers on number keys sounds pretty uncomfortable, and is what I am referring to by splaying your hands

I'll just parrot the rest of the thread: do whatever's comfortable for you. I don't find it particularly "splayed out" or uncomfortable.

For example:

Because I don't play with a kb, I'll confess I never even imagined people would hit both left alt and right alt with the same hand.

You might find that FFXI with a controller is, similarly, a different experience than you imagine it to be

I will say that what you are doing in those pictures does in fact look quite uncomfortable to me, but I can chalk it up to you not feeling so due to practice and muscle memory.

Personally, I think Thorny had this topic answered in the very 2nd reply to the OP: So long as you're faster than XI's APM allows, it's irrelevant what input device is used

Depends which keys I need to hit. Sometimes I use left ctrl, sometimes right, ditto the alt keys. I'm not pressing left ctrl with pinky and 0 with my thumb, that's crazy; I would do right ctrl thumb, 0 with pinky (or any other finger). Or (if stationary or auto-running) can hit ctrl/alt with one hand and then use the other hand to press any number you want. I don't think I ever do this...but maybe I do.


Bending your pinky at the knuckle is uncomfortable, or resting your other fingers fully extended on a key? Bending the thumb at the knuckle?


What an interesting way to completely shut down a conversation and end a thread. I wish more people could contribute this level of imagination to our forum, we'd have a much more lively community if everyone acted this way.

What addons do you use?
Eh, use whatever you want, it's personal preference.

What's the best layout to have your macros in?
Ultimately it comes down to whatever is comfortable to you

How should I organize my spell list?
Whatever helps you remember where they are, it's up to your playstyle

What's your strategy for Sortie?
Really, it depends on your group, there are infinite ways to do it, so just go with whatever you prefer.

Any suggestions for Gigelorum?
Yeah, but there are many different strategies so just do whatever works best for your group

How do you kill Dyna [D] wave 2 bosses?
You can do it with many different compositions, so do whatever works best for you.

Do you make SC with SCH in a single macro or multiple?
Both are viable, just depends what you prefer

WS from menu or WS from macros?
At the current pace of the game, you can easily do either, so just do whatever you want.

WAR or PUP in Ngai?
Both strategies are viable so it's up to you, just pick the one you like.

There, we never need to have another thread. Just do whatever works best for you, everything is equal.

This. I would just add that while this thread is recent, the topic is even older than the game. The debate was settled long ago. I think people are just bored and need something to argue about on the internet.

The pinky and ring finger share a tendon insertion. The degree of which varies by individual, but if you are capable of fully extending your ring finger without something manually holding your pinky into that curled position then recognize that that is not the norm.

If you -do- require the friction of the key to keep your pinky curled while your ring finger is fully extended, then you're being disingenuous when you say that it's a natural position for the hand, because it is pulling tendons into a position that they do not wish to be, and is contorting your hand by very definition.


If this were true then the thread wouldn't be 9 pages long, as it would in fact have ended on reply 2.

You are not giving a response in good faith, as your examples are not equivalent.

If you are faster, by any input method, than the game will accept inputs, then degree to which you are faster than the max allowable input is simply moot, as maximum input speed has already been achieved.

Interesting, I had never heard this. I am not at my desk right now and just held my fingers in that position with no keyboard. It is a bit more difficult and I think I can feel what you mean in my ring finger, but testing with other fingers it seems like at least 1 adjacent finger gives a similar feeling. It's faint but after you pointed it out i can notice it.


That's not what I want, but several people have said that and, as I clearly expressed, I disagree. I think there's much more to be said about the topic and we benefit from the discussion. Lots of people, myself included, have learned a lot from this thread. Good thing it didn't end on the second reply.


I'm glad you have the ability to determine other's intentions, but i think you should use this power for another cause

Why don't you answer the question then.

What gameplay related thing can keyboard do that controller can't.

You first.

Short answer using both if needed but mostly gamepad.

You don't have a question nor an answer and have been avoiding answering a question first asked in page 6.

What gameplay related thing can keyboard do that controller can't.