Segments Are Pain

50*7 = 350

I think you misunderstood my post about the 10 vs 50. I don't think comparing ML0 vs ML50 is fair because most people aren't 0, they're somewhere in the 20s or 30s (or 40), so saying "ML50 gives 50 STR and 350 HP" is...while not untrue, I'd say it's misleading.

If you're already ML30, getting to ML50 will give you 20 STR, 20 acc, and 140 HP. You're extremely unlikely to win anything because of those stats, IMO.

If you're ML0 then sure, grab 20 or 30 ML, maybe 40 if you want to really go nuts.

Blindly thought it was 10. 350 still not a nothing burger, especially for backline jobs that already have a smaller HP pool.
Theres also the aforementioned INT gain on fights like Ongo (as few and far between they are)

And I've seen a lot of people complain about the ML grind, not just all the way to 50.

Its a boring slog from start to finish but you dont really start feeling how bad the grind starts becoming until 17~20 and it just gets worse from there imo

I miss job points

ML30 -> ML50 will actually give you 35 accuracy, from combined Combat skill and DEX.
which is like 3 accessories worth of Acc, or an early ilv.119 armor piece.

Good point, i forgot to include that. Another way to phrase that though...

Or, 1/3 of a piece of food, 1/4 of a song, or 1/8 of a SV song. On a "real" DD job, if you're ML30, you're already probably 100 acc over cap, or more. Depends on the job i guess, but i doubt there are many, if any, situations where you are using different buffs, food, or are capping otherwise uncapped accuracy with ML 30+.

Or somewhere between +15 to -7,5 ACC compared to wearing a second SU5 +2 neck.

If you have the luxury of playing easy mode 24/7 it's nice for you but super buffs aren't omni present. When you attempt a Dhartok solo or when offhanding a none ILVL weapon you'll appreciate +35 extra ACC.

I don't see it this way at all. I see this chain of thought:
-Stun was a primary way in which deadly TP moves were dealt with.
-Players used increasingly advanced stun bots to ensure those TP moves never go off.
-SE realized that half or more of NA endgamers would just stun bot the moves, so they didn't feel it was an appropriate source of challenge any more.
-SE added instant TP moves, making stun bots irrelevant.

-Knockback was a major way in which positioning was made more difficult.
-SE realized that 75% or more of NA endgamers would use anchor/nockback to not be knocked back by these moves, so they didn't feel it was an appropriate source of challenge any more.
-SE put a greater emphasis on debuffs and damage checks, which are fully controlled by the server and can't be meaningfully cheated.

-Using DT sets to avoid more damaging moves was a way in which the equipment swapping system allowed an extra degree of interaction within the game's relatively low action speed.
-SE realized that many NA endgamers are using react to ensure they always get their DT set on in time, and that made it unfair to people who don't use react.
-SE dumped massive amounts of DT onto almost all recent gear, so everyone could benefit equally from DT and react gave less of an advantage.
-To counterbalance this, endgame moves are now designed as if you will have capped DT.

None of these changes encouraged more cheating. But, they all reduced emphasis on mechanics that were relatively manageable, and that required SE to use less manageable mechanics to produce difficult content. I suspect that if the playerbase wasn't so casual about using cheats like these, you would still see these kinds of mechanics in use more widely and there'd be less of the more frustrating kind you complain about.

Master levels are just a kmmo style grind for people who want to do(or bot) them. I don't see them as a response to cheating.

Segments are pain, but like americans say:

no pain, no gain

MLs were a way to even out the jobs. Everyone has at least 2000+ HP now if they want it. You can address accuracy issues for non-DDs that still want to hit things since every prime WS is physical. It was the rebalancing that everyone wanted to be further job adjustments but weren't.

They keep players playing longer, they keep RMT accounts active longer. Dollar dollar bills y'all. Low dev effort. Look we added something, we aren't doing nothing. Game is still alive.



If you're good at something you don't do it for free. People aren't lining up for Master Trials because it doesn't drop the One Ring to Rule all other Rings, just a glow stick. On the other hand Ngai V25 dropped 2 TA, 1 DA, and 5 resists alls on to gear that I already wear. I don't wonder why I did the shark instead of master trials, it's clearly because I had motivation for one and none on the other.

Fair, I'll admit in my earlier statements I wasn't considering solo players attempting difficult content. I'm sure there are plenty of situations where you're low buffed and need more accuracy, this is a blind spot for me because I don't play MMOs that way. If I need to do something difficult, I ask my friends to help me and/or I multi-box it; when I'm playing solo (which I do less of these days, but still do sometimes) I tend to focus only on easy stuff.

Though if you're a solo player who's not multi-boxing and has nobody to help you, I think grinding from ML40-50 with nothing but yourself and trusts is probably still the absolute last ***' way I would ever recommend you increase your accuracy, but I guess if you have done every other conceivable thing you could to increase your accuracy and have no other options, yeah...get ML50 I suppose. If you don't want to claw your eyes out by the end of it.

Or, as Dodik pointed out, everyone just bots it or pays someone else to bot it so...I guess if it's free you might as well go for it, it's your account to get banned, no skin off my nose. Your friends are gonna miss you when you get popped for it though (unless you're a pure solo player in which case what friends?).

I agree, and that's my point. The argument "SE only did X because cheats" is flawed because it then follows that cheats are part of the design. If they are part of the design, everyone should be using them to do that content. The very fact you can complete content without them shows they are not part of the design.


I mean.. that's one way of looking at it. If I may, and no offense, it is a rather negative way of looking at why these design changes were made and seems to be biased on the fact that some cheats have been normalised. That is correlation, not causation.

Stun cannot be relied on as a way to complete content in certain circumstances because

* The packet system can literally make it impossible to see or even respond to a TP move in real time.
* There are mechanics in place which stop you from stunning in time.
* For certain regions, EU for example, latency makes you need FPS level reaction times to stun moves in real time. Some players may have these reaction times, but they are not suitable to an MMO.

As a real life example, I tried to do Zerde and the "can't act on monster within 2 sec of it spawning" mechanic which was put in place, ironically, to stop claim bots stopped me from stunning his first move. The stun went off in time, but did nothing. I could not do another stun for 2sec because GCD. I did nothing wrong, and no cheats were used. The game stopped me from completing the intended mechanic via another game mechanic. This is flawed design.

As a natural conclusion of this flawed design which stops players from playing the game as intended, the designers decided to put less emphasis on reaction time and stunning. Other newer monsters like Botulus have much longer preparation times on their TP moves, making them much more manageable to stun by humans. I think that's a good thing, and don't think it has anything to do with cheating.

* DT in all sets.

The game evolved to give DDs more power, scaling up damage numbers significantly. As a result, DDs now generate a ton more hate, which needs managing. A frequent complaint from DDs is/was dying from moves while trying to WS. You can put more DT in your WS sets at the cost of doing dmg. Even so, more powerful monsters will still one shot you in the best hybrid WS set. This is the same regardless if you use GS to automate it or not.

A person with a hybrid TP set and a hybrid WS set with equal amounts of DT to a person using GS to automatically switch to more defensive sets is no worse off.

Designers actually listened to these complaints and gave players WS sets that are also very defensive, have enough DT to cap at all times and won't instantly kill you if you try to use them and the mob happens to look at you the wrong way at the same time. You still need to add more defensive power on your WS sets for the very highest highest content, particularly MDB, because there is still danger even with capped DT at all times. This is good design. Give the players power, still make it risky unless they adjust their gear to match the content they are doing. It incentivises preparation and adjusting to monster power while at the same time not punishing players that don't use auto-swap tools.

* Knockback as a way to make positioning "more difficult".

IMO the initial implementations were bad design. If your mechanic is "knockback into fetters which both bind you and doom you", htf is the player supposed to position themselves correctly. The only option is.. don't get knocked back. Combine that with gear which, apparently by design, only works correctly if everyone wears it at the same time and also drops your ilvl then you have a flawed mechanic.

It seems most of the new knockbacks are not as severe as Lilith's, don't push you as far back, and there are positions available on the map which means you can avoid them, by design. This is good design. Make the mechanic avoidable by design, not designed to screw you if you try to melee.

I see all of these as designers actually listening to valid criticism, being aware of the limitations of the original designs and adjusting to the evolution of the game.

You may think that is wishful thinking and rainbows, but it does seem there is at least someone over at the design team that both plays the game, understands the frustrations and is capable of designing mechanics that work and are avoidable if players prepare for them appropriately.

At the same time, I think some fights are over tuned and have said it before. I don't think anyone here can realistically argue the 3min FU move Bumba does is a good mechanic.

It's fine, can't get everything right. In general, the design fits the current evolution of the game and I think that's a Good Thing.

Today was good day made casual grp again.. we did pop 3 Nm's got approx 7k segs I don't need elitistic *** holes to group thats why I just shout casual.So everyone should know my group standards..and comments like u dont have Burtgang u can keep your self.. 50% dmg cap and 50% magic cap in these days can be obtainable by gear..hate not much issue with right gear.. I am happy to get that amount segs better than solo...but yes referring to dodik in the long run u can get segs as well.. I have spoken.. dont care if if you blame my sucky english..thats fact ***

I'm laughing over here at you guys suggesting they learned their lesson about knockback and stopped utilizing it as much. Have you not played Sortie?

As someone who doesn't use anchor, the C/G fights are a nightmare. You are constantly knocked back AND bound so you have to pop a panacea to move up, then just get knocked back and bound again. Putting him in a corner doesn't help much because if everyone stacks together then they're all gonna get hit by fetters which means paralyze/virus/etc. Same with the latest master trials nobody can beat, tons of knockback. Anchor is a massive advantage in Sortie.

I wish they would learn to stop using knockback heavily but they haven't.

To be clear, I'm not advocating to solo master levels to 50, imo it already becomes borderline unbearbale somewhere between 10-20. Not a fan of ML bots either.

The comparisons you mentioned made it seems like MLs are less relevant than they are and I wanted to point out that there are situations where those extra master levels would help a lot.

SE also said job points were not necessary but in current content they are and if we get future updates eventually ML50 will become a requirement, too.

Abyssea was imho the acknowledgement that the times of excessive exp grinding are a relic of the past. Job points were another grind but it was much more manageable and had better incentives. MLs are a more excessive grind than 75 ever was and I can't help but feel the only people who asked for them are now playing on private servers because retail isn't hardcore enough.

Peach power doesn't increase leveling speed but at least it's a less boring alternative to traditional parties. Exemplar points from current endgame even drops off at certain ML. They really haven't done anything to ease the curve.


From the devs perspective MLs might be cheap endless "content" but from a players perspective you can't deny that it looks like a call to bot.

Dashing Subligar and repulse mantel in your idle is night and day for Aminon, but most fights are not Aminon. I'd be happy to pick up a Vocane Ring +1 if we were allowed to pick more than 1, I'd even consider putting it in a TP set. But my HP bayld is no good at the palace now that I picked regain for Aminon and Vocane isn't my 1st, 2nd, or 3rd choice after it.

I wish they would add knockback resistance on gear you'd be caught tping in. Maybe not the absolute bis, but a good enough piece of gear that you aren't opened up defensively and isn't lacking basic stats like high accuracy and some small amount of store tp or multi attack. Adding this gear would definitely be step 1.

Step 2 would be to change knockback so it attempts to detect if a player used anchor or other cheats to nullify knock back. If it's detected, just disconnect them. Don't ban them. They can log back in immediately. I'm pretty sure you'd change the reputation of anchor from something people justify because you can do better for your group to something that inconveniences others. Extra troll points if the disconnect comes randomly.

I'd personally like to see step 1 happen with making decent gear happen no matter what. They already adjusted spike flail on domain dragons, but the reality is step 2 is probably not as straight forward as I'd like to believe it is.

I dont think they could do that. I'm sure someone like Thorny could chime in, but that would require the servers to get your updated position multiple times a second with pinpoint accuracy, and anyone who multiboxes knows this is unreliable in certain areas (ie: sortie, the event in question, where I'm constantly having to stop at corners because people are falling behind despite having my leader targeted which is supposed to prioritize updates)

Also, isnt there a way to protect against knockback by precise blinking?

You can't detect it reliably every time even for big knockbacks. If someone was dead set on counteracting it, they could have reasonable confidence on a 10'+ knockback if the player isn't disconnecting(which can be tracked by frequency of updates). Keep a stat in the player's database entry. Someone maintains a 80% anomaly rate over a month and 500 knockbacks? Pretty reasonable to say they're cheating.

I doubt SE would see it the same way though. They're too lazy to code something like that and they want absolute proof. I would be extremely surprised to see any real effort to combat anchor.

Anchor isn't 100% already, unless I'm mistaken. The spitewardens in Lilith will send you flying even with it on while her moves will not.

I respectfully disagree, MLs are not particularly relevant.

You're not wrong that at some point in the future they may be required but right now they aren't.

I do concede that there's a perception from players that MLs encourage botting because of how hard it is to hit ML50, but it's nothing to do with the game's design and everything to do with player insecurity and the game just not being in line with the expectation of more modern games. Lots of people cannot stand the idea of not being 100% maxed out, and lots of people came up in an era when games are built for 100% completion and so it never occurs to them that you aren't supposed to hit max master level in FFXI.

It was clearly supposed to be an endless goal. As such, it's never bothered me how hard it is to get from 40 to 50 and I've never felt a desire to bot or buy MLs. I'm perfectly happy with my highest job being ML40 and most being quite a bit lower.

It irks me to no end how many new players I encounter who have been led to believe that master levels are super important and they're stressing how they are going to hit ML50 when they literally don't even have gear swaps. Like we're talking fresh off the boat, no clue how to play their job, and most of the advice they're getting from other players is "Get MLs they make you super strong! Get Nyame!" I feel like that's doing them a great disservice and just driving them into the arms of RMTs/mercs because the only alternative is soloing Eschan Bugards until ML50.

TL;DR: Master Levels. You. Don't. Need. Them.

Respectfully, it only looks like a call to bot if you have a bot installed. I've never once thought of botting anything so nothing SE could ever implement in the game would look, to me, like a call to bot.

I understand people being frustrated with the amount of time it takes to get ML50, but I would continue to reiterate that you shouldn't be ML50. I think purgatory's post above pretty much summarizes my feelings on this topic. I think getting ML30 is a reasonable goal that doesn't require a lot of commitment and is more than enough to do anything you could care to do with relative ease. Anything beyond that is just gravy for a minor boost, if you happen to get it while going about your life, great. Striving for ML50, especially on multiple jobs, is asking for misery or a senseless ban, for extremely questionable returns.

Would you have made your 8 shields if you couldn't buy spheres from other people? I suspect probably not.

I don't feel this way about any other content, even mythics or ergon weapons, but the amount of hours required to complete a ML 50 job or farm all your spheres for an escutcheon is borderline disrespectful to me.

I disagree entirely with Pergatory that ML 50 is not intended. You get that nice warning every time you log in to remember your friends, family, and life outside FFXi yet they design repetitive tasks like these hoping the exact opposite, knowing full well that some people won't be able to moderate themselves. That contradiction is what bothers me more than the task itself. It's predatory and unnecessary.

Make as many more unwinnable master trials as you want, at least those test player skills and encourage experimentation and creativity. Mindlessly repeating the same SC tens of thousands of times on enemies that pose no real threat to you is just bad content design.

An interesting question. I think i probably would've made 1, but likely not 8.

The same could be said for a lot of other things though. If you had to farm all your own beitetsu, alexandrite, mulcibar's scoria, etc. Then nobody would be making 20 mythics. Ergon weapons would be a nightmare, farming 13,000 hp bayld by yourself.

I still think that crafting shields are a more extreme grind than those things, but I'd highlight that taking sellable items and making them unsellable would make a lot of content unbearable.

Farming 50 original dynamis runs to get a relic would suck ***, ditto 1500 HMP.

This game is all about grinds, that shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. Some you can bypass with gil, some you can't. Some are worthwhile, some are not. Sometimes the juice is just not worth the squeeze, though that decision is up to each player to decide and we all make different decisions.

Most people wouldn't grind 8 shields and very few, if any (others) would do it without third party tools. Frankly, it's not worth it at all and was a dumb passion project. If you want to do ML50 on all your jobs because it's your weird passion project, go for it. I'm still going to hold my opinion that it's not necessary, just like escutcheons aren't necessary.

Bonus: I'll never get banned for buying spheres out of people's bazaars.

Agreed. Grinds are well and good, just those two cross my line in the sand. Just like mythics were originally 50k alex though, they know exactly what they are doing and why. Maybe we haven't been loud enough with our discontent of the ML situation? Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe JP players are less unhappy and willing to take the slow and steady approach than NA are.

You just play support jobs man, you have been carried by Elites, nothing to brag about or even being modest about it.

Anchor?? wtf is that some addon? I got my lilith gear without it as mnk SB feeding not so much anyways took time yea..

Yeah, I'm not badass enough to hit WS macros for 15 minutes straight, you're right, but this is also because I only picked the lower ML jobs that were relevant.

I've played:
DRK, PLD, RUN, SMN, SCH, RDM, BLU, WHM, COR, BRD, GEO, DRG, BLM, RNG, NIN in Odyssey. I've definitely been carried, ya got me! Everyone knows those are the easy jobs.

I guess the really difficult jobs to play in Ody are WAR, BST, SAM, MNK, PUP, THF, & DNC. I should branch out. Then I'd learn the value of master levels.

Also, if you think I was bragging I think you need to re-read the post. My point wasn't "Look how amazing I am" my point was "you don't need ML to beat difficult content. Here's a list of content that is difficult and can be beaten without ML"

hottest hot take of 2024

anyone who thinks DPS are 'carrying' is an egomaniac; every job needs to optimize their sets and prepare but DPS have comparatively much less to think about during almost every fight

I have yet to see a straight vanilla group clearing end content. Usually, vanilla player are surrounded by windower players at the rate of 5/1. Nevertheless, vanilla player are usually very talented players, but I seriously doubt 6 vanilla can.

ML 30 is all you need for most content, only difference is some jobs at 45 get you some nice /sub percs, like foil or OA+25 mp. I guess odyssey doesn’t have that problem. So it’s nice but not mandatory. Also on ML, I do not understand how you reach BRD ML46 without EP party (pretty much what you said). I checked yesterday, and if I counted right our 9/9HQ was 16k EP. Yes that’s really bad. Ody does reward better though.

On a side note, the first group of player that clear the new expansion on 14, was caught using add on and other programs, all of them, the devs said that they were disappointed. None got a warning. Vanilla or not, no one loose sleep over it, it’s a video game for entertainment. They also tell you to step outside thru the monthly notes. I see way too many vanilla players that handle the EP manually, I have concerns for their mental health, 1-2 hours a day is realistically the most anyone should played without impacting their RL, and that include this forum


Edit: oh yes segment are not a pain

I've heard this a lot but I'm not sure exactly how this works. Let's take Kalunga for example. I've played (vanilla, obviously):

WHM, PLD, GEO, BRD, and COR on this fight. I haven't played the DD job (in our case usually WAR) but like...given:

A vanilla WHM can do it
A vanilla BRD can do it
A vanilla PLD can do it
A vanilla COR can do it
A vanilla GEO can do it

Are you really prepared to say that a vanilla team of 6 couldn't do it? IDK...I'm not convinced, personally. I could go through all kinds of other fights but frankly I've played most of the roles and I don't believe that say, for example, my WHM couldn't heal my PLD, or my GEO couldn't support my COR, etc. etc.

We'll never know because there's absolutely no chance that a party of 6 totally vanilla players exists (on NA anyway, maybe JP are doing it) in my experience. I'd be happy to be 1/6 of the experiment though, if anyone knows of 5 players on (or willing to transfer to) Carbuncle.


3 years of doing shitloads of Ody, Sortie, Dynamis [D] (not much, but not nothing), Peach Power, etc.

He didn't say DPS though.