Oathsworn Blade Master Trial - Cleared
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Oathsworn Blade Master Trial - Cleared
Dodik said: » Sounds a lot like an exploit.. Obviously, it sounded like an exploit from the start. Out range a ranged attack and that breaks the bosses attacking behavior. One could easily see that this wasn't a common grav kite method of a fight. Funnily enough we don't have people calling out Xolla's group for winning the fight using an exploit but we do Shiraj's group for using addons that most of the player base uses. If people think that JPs don't use addons they are deluded.
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The difference is we all know anchor is cheating. (we shouldn't (don't) care but facts are facts)
We don't know until they fix it if they intended his AI to behave that way (probably not, but we don't know) It may be the exact same for SR that's been there for what, 13 years now? Dodik said: » Sounds a lot like an exploit.. Like SMN burning so fast mobs don't get chance to do anything? Like cheese TP denial? Could go on and on, but the game is pretty ***and all end game content has been exploited and cheesed for 20 years basically. There are exceptions. I would say Salvage was really good designed content. https://wonderfornia.hatenablog.com/entry/OathswornBlade2
Xolla is breaking the write-up for this into parts. Here is part 2. Nothing new, but it's here is you'd like to read it. Bahamut.Creaucent said: » Dodik said: » Sounds a lot like an exploit.. Obviously, it sounded like an exploit from the start. Out range a ranged attack and thats breaks the bosses attacking behavior. One could easily see that this wasn't a common grav kite method of a fight. Funnily enough we don't have people calling out Xolla's group for winning the fight using an exploit but we do Shiraj's group for using addons that most of the player base uses. If people think that JPs don't use addons they are deluded. Shiraj's group kill was the first kill. End of story! Let people focus on the strat now.
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K123 said: » Like killing Dynamis Lord and AV using KC DRK? Like SMN burning so fast mobs don't get chance to do anything? Like cheese TP denial? It's not that simple, and it really depends on what our definition of an "exploit" is. Most would consider an exploit to be the intentional abuse of a game design or flaw that operates outside of the parameters of how the game is supposed to work. SE would have to weigh in here to tell us if August's behavior is intended or a bug. The examples you provided are not exploits. KC DRK - just a hyper-elevated version of the zerg. Zergs are just ways of manipulating the boss via brute force, because their AI can only perform so may actions at one time. The idea is to overload the AI so that it can't kill you before you can kill it. I never see zergs as an exploit because you're just killing the monster extremely fast; you still have to deal with some of it's mechanics, but nothing you're doing is exploiting game design. It should be noted that SE never banned anyone for this method. Instead, this ingenious method big brained the devs and they responded by making AV resistant to Soul Eater. SMN AFAC - Same as KC, its a zerg, SE responded by making a "Blood Pact wall" TP reset - still operates within the framework of the boss, there's no specific set of steps you need to replicate success, you just don't ever allow a monster to get a move off. The counter to this is make monsters use TP moves every 2-6 seconds (Shinryu is a prime example, TP denial has zero effect on him). Other methods (counter) - Cleaving (-99% DT secondary targets), Manaburning (Mana Wall), Stun locking (Stun resistance), Perfect Defense/Asylum (Ignores PD, Asylum lasts 30 seconds), Kaustra Bumba (increasing DT tiers, or Dark resistance), Zombie (party/alliance aggro), sack pulling (party/alliance aggro), Crowd Control (sleep/petrify/bind resistance), kite strat (Gravity immunity) etc. There's a lot of strategies that are not exploits because they operate within the framework of how the monster is supposed to behave. A clear exploit: During AV days, some people figured out you could fight AV on the other side of a wall and he couldn't target you or hit you back. Clearly an exploit, you're not supposed to be able to do that normally, and SE responded by giving out warnings to players. Another example: Salvage exploit. Warping back down and collecting Alexandrite multiple times per run. You're not supposed to normally be able to do that. Salvage bans ensued. Or medal duping. Not intended, ban worthy (for some) The difference with the August/Oathsworn Blade Master Trial about his bow animation/locking him out of TP moves is that it's not a simple Kite Strategy. If that were the case, it would be repeatable every single time. For instance, when you Kite strat Aita or Gartell, you throw on Gravity and kill him while he runs after one target. There's nothing more to it than that. In this case, as Bigtymer outlined, there's a very specific set of steps you need to do properly in order to "lock" August out of doing Null Field/TP moves. The fact that it happens only with his Bow Animation (from reports of Xolla and Shiraj's own testing) implies that there's something about him failing to fire his ranged attack that causes him to "reset" or behave improperly. My guess is it's similar to the "You move and interrupt your aim" message players get when you move before a Ranged Attack goes off. The animation freezes, the player resets, and the action is cancelled. With August, after outranging his Bow animation successfully, he no longer can use moves beyond a certain range, even when he normally could do that before. The fact that Xolla and crew specifically stopped and attempted this a second time shows they were absolutely targeting this to get August to stop using Null Field. Now we have no way of knowing whether this behavior is intended, since in Sinister Reign, the arena is too small to test and check. So people probably never knew his AI stops acting beyond a certain range after the bow animation, like Eiryl says. I do think the method here is smart by Xolla and team, but you can't tell me forcing August to become a crab is intentional by moving out of range of his bow animation is how he's supposed to behave. Now will SE come out and say Xolla's team clearly exploited a bug or loophole that was unintentional? Probably not, JP are golden children. Maybe they patch it and move on if others find out about it, or they leave it how it is, because the Master Trial is already super hard even attempting this way. But if SE does come out and patch it or acknowledge it was a design flaw and Xolla's team exploited it, yall need to keep that same energy you had for Shiraj/Bigtymer's crew...
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K123 said: » Dodik said: » Sounds a lot like an exploit.. Like SMN burning so fast mobs don't get chance to do anything? Like cheese TP denial? Could go on and on, but the game is pretty ***and all end game content has been exploited and cheesed for 20 years basically. There are exceptions. I would say Salvage was really good designed content. None of those are exploits they are all actual game mechanics and are design as intended at the time. KC zerg on AV got nerfed because the devs wanted the player base to use the intended mechanics while DL didnt get nerfed. The Dyna group i was in also KC zerg animated weapons and they also didnt get a nerf. What most likely isnt a mechanic is out ranging a ranged attack to bug a boss it into auto attack only to stop it from using a TP move without TP denial. I don't see how a mob pulling out his bow and doing nothing else if you walk away can be anything but a bug.
Making use of bugs in order to clear something is the very definition of an exploit. Doubt it will get patched, but who on earth looks at this and goes "Yup, nothing wrong there". TP denial is a solid mechanic that relies on players casting spells and using in-game mechanics to drain TP. It's literally part of the game.
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The only part that's broken is he can't or won't cast holy 2. The bow itself isn't 20+(it's a melee attack with a silly animation) and it's possible they decided not to let him use nullfield back to back. (won't let him spam holy 2 either)
Don't know enough to know if he'll recast shell/protect without watching again to see if they were dispelled or not. When you gravity the frog it spams spells because its a blm, August doesn't cast banish123 or holy 1
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SE intended for Souleater+KC? hahahahaha
SE intended for chainspell stun lock? hahahaa Come on, these are all *** strats that exploited SE's lack of awareness of how the game actually works. If all these things weren't unintended they wouldn't have been prevented in newer content as raised above. SEBW KC nerfed, ACAF nerfed, TP denial nerfed (but dumb kiting wins anyway), new content will definitely not be gravity-able, etc. There has been little end game content which required genuine skill and strategy over cheese and exploiting SE laziness and lack of knowledge of their own game. Kings and other HNM were legit content, ruined by the game being made in a way that allowed botting. Dumb content because of that. Sky was good bosses, dumb collection system which made RMT bot and camp pop item NMs though. Dyna was fine, except the DL cheese or needing to stun lock which is obviously dumb too. DL should have been designed better. Limbus was good, not sure of any cheese strats for Omega and Ultima but they could be utsu tanked which I actually think was good for variety. Sea was fine except the AV cheese nonsense. Forced good variety in set ups. Salvage was good - no ability to exploit boss fights (not talking exploiting drops which was dumb on SE's behalf)? Einherjar was really good. Delve was good until stun botting was the norm. Vagary was good. Omen was good (got way too easy over time and with >6 though, would love there to be hard mode added). Gaes Fete is mostly pretty good except allowing SMN burn. Would have liked Kouryu and WoC to have been better fights like making us kite Kouryu and kill adds like old Kirin rather than a melee burn on both though. Teles is the only dumb fight in Reisin IMO. Never did Legion sadly since I didn't play those years, but I don't recall any exploits.
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Dodik said: » TP denial is a solid mechanic that relies on players casting spells and using in-game mechanics to drain TP. It's literally part of the game. I expect Gravity kiting to be nerfed too. Asura.Eiryl said: » The only part that's broken is he can't or won't cast holy 2. The bow itself isn't 20+ and it's possible they decided not to let him use nullfield back to back. (won't let him spam holy 2 either) Don't know enough to know if he'll recast shell/protect without watching again to see if they were dispelled or not. When you gravity the frog it spams spells because its a blm, August doesn't cast banish123 or holy 1 Either way people should use this to try clear. Most of the difficulty is still there, if you can beat the dps check you deserve the clear, regardless how you did it. There's still a LOT of luck + coordination so it doesn't just make the fight easy.
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K123 said: » SE intended for Souleater+KC? hahahahaha SE intended for chainspell stun lock? hahahaa Come on, these are all *** strats that exploited SE's lack of awareness of how the game actually works. Big braining the devs isn't the same as abusing an exploit. There's no way in hell SE intended for you to kill Bumba with Kaustra MB, but it falls within the scope of killing the monster within the parameters of the abilities in the game, but more importantly, does not employ a malicious abuse or using an unintended bug to achieve a win. If you stun a monster repeatedly and that monster does not have a resistance to stun, he loses because you overcame whatever annoying mechanic you were trying to avoid. That's smart strategy. If you cast Absorb-CHR on Aminon after he swings exactly 6 times and he literally falls and drops 10 Mesos and 5 +1 cases, that's not supposed to happen. You are confusing using a strategy to kill a boss with someone who may be (I can't say for sure, so wording it as such) using a bug that causes the boss to behave erratically or weirdly. The part that you're misunderstanding is that Xolla uses a valid strategy in the kite mechanic, but it's preceded by something that appears buggy that makes the kite strategy even feasible.
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Not being able to call the first nakuul may be the way it's programmed or it may be stuck on the stack due to the coding. we can't know.
CS Stun was used on a wide variety of fights back at 75 days, not just DL, and latest was during the delve era. So yes very much intended.
SE saw how powerful KC DRK zerg and Apoc SEBW zerg was and introduced the Souleater resistance and the 80% haste cap respectively. Neither were "exploits" and both were intended mechanics at the time. SE just didn't realise how powerful having multiple DRKs doing this was, oversight yes exploit no.
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Asura.Eiryl said: » Not being able to call the first nakuul may be the way it's programmed or it may be stuck on the stack due to the coding. we can't know. People sporting Nyame R30 talking about cheats and exploits. If we could make Bumba fall off the edge we would have used it.
Master Dev: Boss, people are zerging bumba with Savage Blade spam, bypassing the intended mechanics. Boss: Add WS wall, damage type wall, timed fetters etc so they can't zerg it. Master Dev: Boss, they are now going lower than SB zerg, they are DOTing bumba to death and just sitting there waiting for Wild Card. Who wants to do the same strategy for 20 years? I like that SE makes old strategies unviable so it makes players come up with new ones. Just because they nerf it on new content doesn't mean it was bugged. It's kind of the dev vs player mentality this game has.
I do think nerfing an existing strategy on current content is dumb. For example, nerfing KC+SE on AV was dumb. Obviously an oversight by SE so they patched it. Kind of invalidated players for out smarting SE. They should have come up with a new super boss that the strategy wouldn't work on. Bahamut.Creaucent said: » both were intended mechanics at the time Lakshmi.Buukki said: » You are confusing using a strategy to kill a boss with someone who may be (I can't say for sure, so wording it as such) using a bug that causes the boss to behave erratically or weirdly. The part that you're misunderstanding is that Xolla uses a valid strategy in the kite mechanic, but it's preceded by something that appears buggy that makes the kite strategy even feasible. Siren.Dekoda said: » I do think nerfing an existing strategy on current content is dumb. For example, nerfing KC+SE on AV was dumb. Obviously an oversight by SE so they patched it. Kind of invalidated players for out smarting SE. They should have come up with a new super boss that the strategy wouldn't work on.
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Bahamut.Creaucent said: » None were ever intended, they were oversights by noob devs that don't know or play the game that became standard strats they then didn't want to nerf because it would have pissed off too many players. On the same note that this strat will become the norm and they probably won't then bother to change it and fools like you will pretend it was "INTENDED".
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I hope someone update this fight strat on BGwiki and we stop posting nonsense in this thread.
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I was wondering why there was no page either.
There is absolutely nothing stopping any of you from updating BG Wiki once you become aware of new information; you don't have to be the one to discover it. There's even a "talk" or "discussion" tab that you can use if you just want to plot ideas onto so it's not on the "official" page.
Be the change you want to see.
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: » Be the change you want to see. K123 said: » Never did Legion sadly since I didn't play those years, but I don't recall any exploits. Legion was essentially the same strat as early Delve. Rotate BRDs and CORs so all three parties have 6 songs and 6 rolls, have 3xSCH on a stun rotation to prevent all TP moves.
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