I mean Eijin still pretends that his main is "vanilla" while his other 5 characters are all doing things all at the same time.
If you ask him about it he claims "I'm alt-tabbing bro".
Yeah, right. And I'm Michael Jackson.
Everyone cheats. We've been over this.
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Avoid this server at all costs
Carbuncle.Nynja said: » Its one thing to bot its another thing to livestream the botting Dudes not running 6 characters with "crafty send scripts" Livestreamers get caught cheating all the time, its not exclusive to FFXI. Sure but like, how does it affect anyone else? It's not like it broadcasted to SE something they didn't already know. And, as he found out the hard way, he put himself at risk and got punished for it. I don't think he's a bad guy, and between him and Kwech (the only 2 ffxi streamers I really know of), I'd prefer to watch Ejin's if I was going to watch one. Asura.Clintbeastwood said: » how does it affect anyone else?
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Shiva.Thorny said: » Asura.Clintbeastwood said: » how does it affect anyone else? Is your position that Ejin significantly influenced a meaningful increase in multiboxers across all servers, or that even just 1 is too many?
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Yes, I believe that Ejiin significantly influenced the propagation of multiboxers across all servers. He had very high visibility and his earlier content(vagary/escha era) provided a lot of outlines as to how he multiboxes various content including scripts and tool use.
It's not that even one is too many. I obviously can't fault anyone for multiboxing or helping their buddy out. But, it's hard to deny that a ton of the most capable and engaged endgame players from 5-8 years ago have removed themselves from the scene and are largely multiboxing alone. Anything that contributed to that in any meaningful way had a substantial negative impact to the game, imo.
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Asura.Clintbeastwood said: » Sure but like, how does it affect anyone else? It's not like it broadcasted to SE something they didn't already know. And, as he found out the hard way, he put himself at risk and got punished for it. I don't think he's a bad guy, and between him and Kwech (the only 2 ffxi streamers I really know of), I'd prefer to watch Ejin's if I was going to watch one. This is a byproduct of him normalizing these tools.
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There's people talking and discussing tako and things like that openly, with no knowledge of wtf Eijin is nor having ever seen any twitch stream of anything, let alone XI.
It's normalised, for sure. I don't see how twitch streams have anything to do with it. Twitch streams appeal to non-players more than players. And they, twitch streams, don't matter as much as anyone thinks they do.
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That's a fair take. I've only watched his stream a handful of times but I don't remember the view count every being super high, maybe 50-70ish?
Influence is real though, I was on a break from 2015 until 2019, when Ruaumoko videos started popping up and got me excited to play again. Quote: But, it's hard to deny that a ton of the most capable and engaged endgame players from 5-8 years ago have removed themselves from the scene and are largely multiboxing alone Not just engaged endgame players. I was in a random linkshell (I pick them up from concierge from time to time) where the leader was a 6 boxer, but the linkshell was basically a beginner friendly social. Leader would invite the linkshell to come to free events (like omen, dyna-d etc) while he ran his boxes. One day I joined them once for an Ou run. It became clear within five minutes that the leader was a completely incompetent noob who was just copying whatever he learned from whatever guide or write-up on multiboxing. Didn't know a thing about buffs, boss mechanics, nothing. Listening to him on discord say "ok guys, stand back. I need to run singer to get my buffs up then set my profile to tanking and rolls. I need a few minutes". It was embarrassing listening to him scream at the group when he lost Ou hate because he had no idea what Zero Hour does. I'm not even putting it all on ejinn because I don't know. But multiboxing becoming available to the lowest of braincell incubators was the worst thing to make publicly accessible.
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I blame the game rewarding multibox more than someone pointing out that it's rewarding to do it. (and/or how to "do it better")
It's not Ejin's fault for stating that if you tribox delve, you get triple the rewards. That's like the starting point for his arc. It was *** well before that.
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Dodik said: » There's people talking and discussing tako and things like that openly, with no knowledge of wtf Eijin is nor having ever seen any twitch stream of anything, let alone XI. It's normalised, for sure. I don't see how twitch streams have anything to do with it. Twitch streams appeal to non-players more than players. And they, twitch streams, don't matter as much as anyone thinks they do.
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Carbuncle.Nynja said: » Dodik said: » There's people talking and discussing tako and things like that openly, with no knowledge of wtf Eijin is nor having ever seen any twitch stream of anything, let alone XI. It's normalised, for sure. I don't see how twitch streams have anything to do with it. Twitch streams appeal to non-players more than players. And they, twitch streams, don't matter as much as anyone thinks they do. To Dodik's point, Ejin's stream never influenced me to do anything I wasn't probably already doing, but I realize that's anecdotal and it's logical to assume there's more multiboxing due to his influence than not. With that said, it wouldn't be fair to solely place the state of the game at his feet simply because he's one of the more visible targets. Windower really was the gateway drug for me. Once I figured out how amazing gearswap was and how to use it, that actually became the game for me. Updating gear sets in my luas was just as much fun as playing the game itself. The deep and insidious abyss of addons and plugins came after that.
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Paying the sub fee multifold sure will teach SE some respect. The logic is flawless.
Carbuncle.Nynja said: » Every linkshell has that one *** dumbshit low IQ idiot (four words because using the 1 word version is a nono word) Asura.Clintbeastwood said: » ITT: Cheaters mad at another cheater for streaming because he cheats differently than they cheat. 
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Asura.Clintbeastwood said: » Windower really was the gateway drug for me. Once I figured out how amazing gearswap was and how to use it, that actually became the game for me. Updating gear sets in my luas was just as much fun as playing the game itself. The deep and insidious abyss of addons and plugins came after that. SE's refusal to improve the in-game macro system to be more action-based or at least more flexible (more slots would be helpful), forced a lot of people into lua. Exacerbated by Gaol due to low margin for error and requiring top sets for scenarios (Yeah I did it all vanilla, and hated it once i switched over). Also made worse when PDL stuff become the norm (so now you need attack UP/DOWN sets). Playing on vanilla scripts/equipsets/macro sets is Night and day difference. The game is just clunky and unforgiving out the box in a lot of areas (I am the biggest complainer of auto target being terrible). I wish they would have overhauled the macro system entirely; I don't think lua would have been so popular if the macro system was better. I also know many people just prefer copy/pasting everyone else's sets and don't care to make their own, so who knows, maybe it wouldn't have made a difference cuz people are lazy and prefer easy optimization. Feels great not pulling 20+ mobs and dying, because you can't pull out your weapon and engage for trusts to heal you. Feels great when you click a macro several times and don't get an error message. Can't blame addon/plugin culture entirely on one person, when the game itself is not user-friendly. Many of us who never touched addons for years got tired of playing on the archaic vanilla system and just moved on from it.
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Uh yeah...the guy who obviously bots and makes guides about how you, too, can bot the game instead of playing with other people.
How could anyone possibly suggest that he has harmed the game? Maybe if he helps people with content for money (channel points are basically an inefficient way of giving the streamer money), he's actually a really amazing person and nothing else can take away from that? I'm not gonna get into a pissing contest with him, there's some chance he's helped more newbs than me, IDK, the scales don't matter. I've helped lots of newbs and I've never asked them to watch my stream to get it. I've never had to bot anything to help a newb. I've never had to make a YouTube video telling other people how to bot in order to help a newb. You don't need to be harmful to be helpful, and being helpful doesn't eliminate your harmful actions either. I searched Ejin FFXI on YouTube, you know what pops up? ...Yeah, how could anybody POSSIBLY think this is harmful to the community of our multiplayer game? No idea.
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Carbuncle.Nynja said: » Its a byproduct of people thinking this stuff is the standard. Ejin's streams helped more than they hindered this belief. much to this end, there was a discussion in ejin's discord the other day bc a dude who leaves all 1324 of his chars on the HP crystal in Norg 25/8 got a tell from someone, and the guy with his 47236 similar named characters was really confused and annoyed how this was bothering someone. "just use f8!!!" says the guy who is not using f8 at all ever in their gameplay because they are using superwarps, but insists everyone else must use f8 to target an NPC because moving their characters after their ML bot warps them all to HP after x number of hours would require actually being at their PC. literally in this discussion, someone said that they didn't even realize /targetnpc was a native in-game option because "theyve been using their scripts for so long" - shits wild and these dudes genuinely believe everyone else is running their 6box tools and superwarps and ***and you're like annoying THEIR gameplay if you're not also doing all that.
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fractalvoid said: » much to this end, there was a discussion in ejin's discord the other day bc a dude who leaves all 1324 of his chars on the HP crystal in Norg 25/8 got a tell from someone, and the guy with his 47236 similar named characters was really confused how this was bothering someone. "just use f8!!!" says the guy who is not using f8 at all ever in their gameplay because they are using superwarps, but insists everyone else must use f8 to target an NPC because moving their characters after their ML bot warps them all to HP after x number of hours would require actually being at their PC. So this is an actual problem that I wish SE would do something about. The other day, I couldn't target the Swirling Vortex in Al'Taieu to getinto Apollyon, because someone had an ARMY of alts standing directly on top of it. F8 did nothing. I ran out of range and back in several times, even zoned to try to get to the spot before this guy's character models loaded. Took me like 5min to get into the goddamn zone of me swirling my camera around nonstop trying to target the thing, because the game couldn't load the vortex with 12 bodies sitting on top of it. I wish zoning out of places automatically moved players OFF of the entry, similar to HP exiting your mog house moves you slightly away from the entrance. It's a rare annoyance that shouldn't really exist (I deal with it all the time with HPs in Mhaura).
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: » Many of us who never touched addons for years got tired of playing on the archaic vanilla system and just moved on from it. This was me; didn't start using gearswap until 2020, no looking back now.
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Carbuncle.Maletaru said: » I searched Ejin FFXI on YouTube, you know what pops up? Spoiler Alert! Click to view. FFXI - Follow/Unfollow Multiple Characters Guide - Multibox like a PRO Multiboxing FFXI - Sortie 8/8 FFXI - Make Multiboxing INCREDIBLY EASY! Multibox like a PRO ...Yeah, how could anybody POSSIBLY think this is harmful to the community of our multiplayer game? No idea. Yeah, I wasn't aware any of this existed lol. This is unequivocally a step beyond just being a part of Fight Club.
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Not to defend a twitch streamer of all things, but streamers put out stuff people watch. They do do it for money.
If multiboxing guides did not attract clicks, which gives Eijin money, he would not make them. Frankly, Ejin is a perfect example of the multiboxing philosophy IMO. Every one of these people have convinced themselves that they're not botting, they're just REALLY smart and their genius planning and macro creation is what's killing the bosses, not bots.
Meanwhile, they hit 1 macro and 6 characters do 15 actions each, including positioning, casting, gear swaps, JA usage, engaging, disengaging, targeting mobs. Yup, it's not a bot, it's just a script. *** get real. Homeboy has made videos about how to bot for probably a decade, has a Discord filled with people who ask him for advice on how to bot, and somehow people think he's just really smart and good at the game and that's why he's so accomplished. A dude who, if I'm not mistaken, was banned for botting. Maybe multiple times? I'm not up on the latest drama/lore. I've said it every time these kind of topics come up but just to re-iterate before people put words in my mouth: IDGAF if you bot. You can "play" FFXI however you want. I do, however, care when you are spreading this *** culture to the rest of the community and convincing people they should bot because they'll never find anyone to play with and it's super profitable and easy to do and it's TOTALLY not cheating because it's just an extension of the macro system, bro! Keep that ***to yourself and stop polluting our game by trying to convince the whole community that they're fools for not botting. Dodik said: » If multiboxing guides did not attract clicks, which gives Eijin money, he would not make them. If crack didn't attract drug addicts, which gives me money, I wouldn't sell it to children.
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Carbuncle.Maletaru said: » Every one of these people have convinced themselves that they're not botting, they're just REALLY smart and their genius planning and macro creation is what's killing the bosses, not bots. If you're going to try to tie this into gearswap, I've said in the past there are parts of gearswap that I believe go beyond its initial use and fall squarely into automation.
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Asura.Clintbeastwood said: » Yeah, I wasn't aware any of this existed lol. This is unequivocally a step beyond just being a part of Fight Club. Carbuncle.Nynja said: » Literally no one outside of the person in question who uses tools thinks this. Ejinn put out one of the first videos on how to solo Zerde with SAM using bot army and stunning Just Desserts via React. This was at least like 8+ years ago. Do you honsetly think players who copied his strat could have pulled this off without the tools? You don't think they went into their discord groups and bragged "i solod zerde"? Now, I join random 8B Sortie PUGs and the players who can barely put together a -DT set are announcing procs in the chat instantly on D/H because of React profiles. Aminon fights where the group has no idea how to position if you don't use anchor. Or Superwarp throwing off song timers. There is a cause and effect of streamers promoting tools that make the game easier. The downside is, players become dumber, mess up the collaborative flow of the group, or just have no clue how to deal with mechanics at all, because they've gotten so used to bypassing it altogether. That leads to frustration when players who don't use these tools meet the ones who do, because one side is pressured to use them and doesn't want to, or the other side feels disadvantaged as a group because someone refuses to use them. It's a bad mix.
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You know that thing where you do your Leadens in Dyna without first attacking and drawing your weapons?
Yeah, "botting". Vanilla can't do that. For every competent multi-boxer that can do those things, tools or no, there are a gazillion incompetent multi-boxers that can't even with all the tools in the world. A competent vanilla tru-solo player also makes a competent botter and multiboxer. The idiots that play mmos are only idiots because Ejin made a youtube video is certainly a take, guys.
Do guides and vods cause harm, yeah, some amount. Sure. Damn if I knew I could've been the grandfather of all boxxing I'd have made the tutorial first.
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Dodik said: » You know that thing where you do your Leadens in Dyna without first attacking and drawing your weapons? Yeah, "botting". Vanilla can't do that. Not sure which "you" you're referring to here, but as a general community note, sure a little more awareness of the advantages "tools" give over "vanilla" is fine. TBH though, i think the WS from disengaged thing, especially in dynamis, is not much of an advantage. Bit more in aminon, IMO, but still not the hill I'd die on. Dodik said: » For every competent multi-boxer that can do those things, tools or no, there are a gazillion incompetent multi-boxers that can't even with all the tools in the world. A competent vanilla tru-solo player also makes a competent botter and multiboxer. I'm really not clear what this point is supposed to be. Shitty multibotters are worse than good multibotters? Sure. Good players make good multibotters? Sure. Not sure what that has to do with anything though. You can, in fact, still suck at the game even with a bot's help. Doesn't change the fact that the bot's still helping? A player with a bot will be better than the same player without a bot. Comparing them to a better player without a bot, or a different player with a bot, is a red herring IMO. Dodik said: » For every competent multi-boxer that can do those things, tools or no, there are a gazillion incompetent multi-boxers that can't even with all the tools in the world. A competent vanilla tru-solo player also makes a competent botter and multiboxer. The problem doesn't really impact "competent multiboxer[s]", because they're fine handling game scenarios themselves. The problem is with people who don't even understand basic mechanics of the game at all, who rely on these tools for, well, everything. Still not putting it ALL on Ejinn, but when ease-of-use tutorials on how to mindlessly bypass mechanics are put out, and novice players get a hold of it, it just creates a rift later on when said players don't know how to find a goddamn Diaphenous Bitzer without Sumeril, because they've been conditioned to be a in group that just tells you where to go, but have no idea how to locate it otherwise. It's an annoying knowledge gap they wouldn't have had if not for most of these tools being so accessible.
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: » The problem doesn't really impact "competent multiboxer[s]", because they're fine handling game scenarios themselves. It might not impact them, but it impacts the other competent players who choose not to multibox. The people who succeed in multiboxing are people who would've generally been excellent linkshell assets with 1 character. Hell, plenty of folks could play one character decently and instead want to get 2-4x credit so they flail around uselessly on some of the mules. Part of the problem is the steep learning curve of the game, sure. But, highly engaged players removing themselves from the grouping pool to multibox contributes heavily to difficulty grouping on small servers.
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Thought this could get a chuckle since we on this topic ;p
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Carbuncle.Maletaru said: » TBH though, i think the WS from disengaged thing, especially in dynamis, is not much of an advantage. Slippery slope. If WS while disengaged is okay, then gearswap luas are ok. If gearswap luas are ok, Sel's luas are ok. .. Shiva.Thorny said: » Part of the problem is the steep learning curve of the game, sure. But, highly engaged players removing themselves from the grouping pool to multibox contributes heavily to difficulty grouping on small servers. IMO both can contribute, but correlation is not causation. Highly engaged players prefer to play with other highly engaged players. When there is a lack of highly engaged players to group with, your choices are: * Don't group * Group with people that expect you to carry them Not surprised at the amount of people choosing the former.
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