ATTN: "OMG WINDOWER USERS SHOULD BE BANNED!" People

Going to get trolled to hell for this for or topic deleted but, you realize, right, that windower and XIAH are just a few tweeks off?

To quote the oh great man himself:
I feel like this needs a new topic stating this in the OP to attempt to bore this idea into some skulls. Maybe since it's now right in the open, you guys will read it. Don't even have to look.

If SE was cool with it they would have released their own version of it with all the bells and whistles and got rid of the bare bones windower they have.

It's not like they can't but in the intrest of fair gaming they don't.

Let the horse just die ._.;

This is the quote that means it all, and Jaerik put it so well. For better or for worse, the business world runs on money. SE is no exception. SE, as a company, will do whatever keeps them profitable. This includes turning a blind eye to some amount of programs, and running ffxi after ff14 is out. As long as they're making money, they're only going to care a small amount about exactly how people play.

So, people are welcome to complain all they want, I will continue to ignore them, as will SE, so long as people stay subscribed. Besides, I'm still having fun, and I'm just over the 3.5 year mark. Aren't you?

EDIT: ok but this end as the last threat

Why is this always such a big discussion? Let the ppl who wanna use unofficial windower do so, and let those those who dont wanna use it not use it.

Whats the big deal? speculating over and over if ppl who are using it will eventually get banned or not isnt really leading anywhere. Only time will tell.

As for unofficial windower to be "cheating", that would be up to SE to decide, its not like they dont know lots of ppl using it.

tl,dr: If you wanna use it use it, if not then dont. Never gonna convince "the other side" you're right anyway.

DON'T MAKE FUN OF BRITNEY!

Windower just has some obvious tools that SE apperantly wasnt smart enough to implement themselves, plain and simple as for the tools I use for example....

Draw Distance... (Can tell exactly how far you can cast a spell from the castey~, Why? Simply to avoid AOEs and crap, example I can easily avoid getting Mijin Gakured by a mob on Dyna (Which is way stronger than the Mijin Gakure players get -_-), this I dont consider cheating.

/recast......., I'd like to know when my spells and JAs are ready, without having to spam opena windower, or fill a limited 5-6 line macro with /wait.../wait.../wait...

Party TP view, Yay I know when I can SC with people without having to ask every 20 secounds yay!

IF anyone considers any of these tools, or w/e other tools windower uses cheating, well then, you should just quit cause I'd say a good 1/4 if not more of the FFXI population must use this crap.

P.S. NASA + FFXIapp users, <^>^_^
Auto~claim bots is where you cross the line, thats all =)
Then again the whole NM an d HNM wait 21-24hr repop thing is a ridiculous idea all together.

Nearly all the plugins that come with Windower are standard features in almost ALL MMOs. Its obvious SE didn't realize their importance by leaving such basic features out. I hope they've learned their lesson and create a more customizable HUD in FFXIV as well as features similar to many of the 3rd party applications and plugins used alongside Windower.

If they don't, I imagine the same *** thing is going to happen all over again.

The thing is alot of the plugins (not ALL but ALOT) can be calculated by yourself, windower just provides the calculations and shows it to you. You CAN sit there and count PT members hits and calculate their TP, you CAN calculate recasts, you CAN log the time of every tell etc etc etc, people just dont bother with it because it wastes too much time.

Obvious troll is obvious.

To flame core with thee!

*scratches head*

If I had realized folks would be reposting year-old stuff from me, I would take care to be a slight bit more diplomatic. =)

...

...naaaah.

Notice: The people that make and update windower are not getting paid for it right?

IF you can get a bunch of rogue programers to make this windower system and I dont mine saying, a awesome freakin windower system. Without pay and freely distributes to anyone who feels like using it without expecting anyform of compensation.

Ladys and gentlemen, these are the guys who should be running the MMO game business.

As far as I'm concerned and the majority the rest of you, SE is just in it for the money just like any other company, profit. But its nice to know that there is still some individuals in this world who dont do everything for profit and share with others. The point of this gaming all together is to kinda to throw your mind into a world where for a short time.... you don't have to worry about worldly issues, you dont gotta worry about whos getting shot next, or "Goddam I gotta go pay my rent or imma get evicted," but when games and how they are being developed and used is based upon how much profit its making "The man," alot of the fun that could be there isnt, because they only do whats needed and arent willing to go the extra mile to make it even greater unless it makes them more money. The more time you spend playing the game, the more addicted you become to it, the more addicted the more money you spend on it, its pretty simple. YES they need to make money to pay their employees, pay for their companys expenses yada yada, but we all know its all about the profit for them at the end of the day.

I'm not "ranting" I'm not complaining, I'm just making a point is all, even though I know me saying all this isnt going to make them change theirs ways =(

Thank you Widower Developers =)

P.S. I know someone is going to be like "Hey doesnt pot do that" XD!

It brings tears of joy to every trolls alive.

Being "all about the money" is not nearly as negative a thing as you guys make it out to be. Realize that it was the profits made off FF11 that has even made FF14 possible. It was those "profits" that went into the development FF12, 13, etc. Many of those "profits" are sunk back into the company in the form of better compensation for their developers, artists, and programmers, so that the content and technology keeps getting better over time instead of stagnating.

If you've read my rants on the subject, I don't pull many punches with certain half-assed parts of SE's code. I have lambasted them in public when warranted. But I also feel like I need to defend them, sometimes.

MMO developers have families, with mortgages, and kids, etc. It isn't a very glamorous profession. In fact, the gaming industry universally pays less per position than the same position would pay in a non-gaming company. Why? Because we like making games, and liking what we do for a living is more valuable than whatever major pay cut we take by doing so. Sage Sundi is the Global Producer for SquareEnix. Do you know what he makes, compared to what someone with that title would make in any other industry? Probably less than half.

When I worked on Everquest, the median playtime for end-game players was seventy hours a week. That's about 315 hours a month, for a $10/month subscription. So roughly 3 cents an hour for an experience engaging enough to last (for some players) half a decade or more. By comparison, the movie industry charges you fourteen bucks for a 90-minute movie.

So please stop hurling vitriol at SquareEnix. They are not an evil corporation intent on kicking your puppy and taking your lunch money. If they didn't care about these games as much as you do, they wouldn't be in this industry.

But also realize that working on games for a living gives you a different sort of "caring" than playing them, spending every day trying to strike that delicate balance in design between making money and just being really cool. The perspective is completely changed when you spend 3-5 years working with 100 other people on top-level designs and code. You just don't have the time to sit there and worry about a single customer's screeching rant about the loot table percentage balance buried on a spreadsheet on some obscure file system for a mob you had no hand in designing in the first place anyway, in a zone you've never visited because it was developed in another department.

When you've spent years of your life at 10+ hours a day (overtime is common in the games industry - 70+ hour work weeks are not unheard of) mucking around in the code that governs the evident self-worth of hundreds of thousands of people, you just don't want to come home at the end of it, log in, and try to look for a goddamn group. It's just not fun anymore.

So please don't blame them if they don't seem as interested in minute details of say, crafting mechanics, on a handful of recipes in a game that has tens of thousands that otherwise work correctly. In any other profession, being 99.98% reliable would get you mass commendation and a raise. For some reason, in this industry, it gets you yelled at.

And people wonder why there's so few MMO's coming out these days.

I agree for the most part, and I definetally dont bother GMs or Se or anything about crafting, and drop rates and junk, it just bugged the crap outa me after I was haxed for the 2nd time on a character I spent 4yrs of time and money on, and even a GM agreeing that they knew who did it on top of that, that SE "Not the individuals" but as a company decided to do nothing about it.

I'm still here playing today, but definetally not 1/4 as frequently as I used to but I'm still here so I can get that the individuals in a company do have to make some sacrifices to do what they love, and get paid less, but its also true that the big names in the corporation, the ones that do nothing and own everything really just do it for the profit. I'm sure that even the people who developed windower have mortages, and bills to pay, and family, and without any compensantion they were able to make what they did, I think thats amazing that SE couldnt is all, a little upsetting~

I do think you have won, good sir.

At the end of the day we all just want to have fun, but the line is blurred when money is involved.

Example, this would seem very ABSTRACT and un related... but its just an example dont flame me people.

I recently heard about Israel was harvesting the organs of dead soldiers from a WAR in 1993 I belive dont know the exact details as far the War or who they were fighting. Point is they harvested organs from dead bodys, and made money because of it. They hadnt admitted to this till recently and ofcourse alot of people were pissed.

Point is, if people are dieing, and someones making more money for more bodys, there will be more bodies.

So, if a person can make money from a game (Offering a service), Regardless of what the service is for, if they can make money off of it, they can manipulate the service to get as much money as they can from it. 1 to pay for what it costs them to offer that service and more.

None the less I still have my respect for the individuals involved in game developing, its alot of time and effort, but I dont have much respect for the cooperate heads, dealing with my company... which I'll keep ~Anon~ I know what Big Business does to make money.

Like the garbage windowed mode they released?

Sorry, but if you think that coding for a console game and a PC game are one in the same, you're seriously HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE.

PS: Every other MMO supports player-made content. And they're all doing a hell of a lot better in terms of profit and sales than FFXI.

:3 I remember throwing that quote out there long ago... didn't know other people had saved text files of it themselves, too. :x

I don't stalk Jaerik, <_< I'm just naturally drawn to irrefutable logic! >_>;

What's so terrible about it? It works mostly as I expected/needed--lets me switch between Firefox and FFXI whenever I want. Pretty much the only complain I have is that it takes a few seconds to notice it is up front and supposed to take inputs from the USB controller.

What do you mean by 'content'? I know WoW has user programmable/configurable UI, but when people talk about content in the context of video game, they usually mean scenario/mission/quest/level-or-zone/in-game-items instead.

Aside from WoW, which MMORPGs have greater annual revenue than FFXI? Cite your source, please--I'm curious about the MMO marketplace's economic data.

Quite a number, actually.

MMO companies have a tendency to stop reporting their subscriber numbers once they have fallen off significantly. SE stopped reporting back in mid-2005 at 500,000, (and even that number was suspicious back then), but given the usual patterned falloff of the MMO lifecycle, I would estimate FF11 currently down around the level of EVE Online or lower.

lol. I was looking at that just before I posted. One reason I asked instead of just listed them because that site only has data/projection for up to 2008.

The "quite a number" was 'four', to be precise: WoW, Lineage I/II, and RuneScape were the only ones with bigger subscription base (which sort of equates to revenue), and Lineage I was almost in a free fall. The person I was responding to made such a big claim "every other MMO ... all doing a hell of a lot better in terms of profit and sales than FFXI", that I thought it'd be a good idea to verify if he has some insight/data or just passing wind.

(source: http://www.mmogchart.com/analysis-and-conclusions/ )

SE actually may have been under reporting in the past. Also, the wording of the 8th Vana'diel Census (2008) is "more than 500,000 users"; so as recently as 2008, SE claimed FFXI has a userbase higher than 500k. The 9th Census (2009) was actually the first time SE did not claim to have over 500,000 users, and reported instead the number of characters (over 2.35 million).

I tried to go through SE's financial statements (fiscal year 2008) a few months back, and came away thinking the online division didn't do badly at all. Didn't directly compare with fiscal 2007's, though, since it was rather difficult; the only thing weaker than my Japanese is my accounting...

(Did I mention I'm interested in economic data for MMOs? lol.)

Valid points. It's true the claim "every other MMO... all doing hell of a lot better" is bunk. They're doing quite well, as evidenced by the fact they're producing another MMO in the same space. However, I was also arguing that there are number "aside from WoW" that still do better, even years later in their standard MMO falloff curve. Depending how much you trust the suspiciously steady "500k" number, Dofus and EVE may have passed them by now.

Well, the fact that Sage Sundi changed the phrase from "over 500,000" after sticking with it for years (since as far back as May 2004) in the Census report pretty much told us the number dropped.

I'd further speculate that he had long ago consider it a sustainable (for a few years) target number of subscribers, and that's why he stubbornly cling to that exact wording even when the subscription number likely exceeded 700k (I'm guessing around ToAU release). e.g. Instead of bragging rights for one year, by using that modest phrase, he can hide the almost inevitable decline for years--and it did just that for him.

Not sure if the 500k was an internal target, but the FFXI team managed to keep the userbase at 500k and above from 2004 to 2008, even as SE continued the tradition of rotating devs from team to team every few years That kind of consistency is pretty amazing, especially for a game universally recognized (condemned? lol) to be to be too difficult for beginners. Heck, FFXI even withstood the assault from the Juggernaut WoW and its lesser clones.

(Well, the numbers were also helped by the staggered release schedule of JP(PS2) > JP(PC) > US(PC) > US(PS2) > EU + xBox.)

Anyway, I'm more inclined to believe the "more than 500,000" phrase was correct than not--that the wording is intentionally vague when Sage Sundi probably has the exact, updated figure on his desk every week actually makes it more believable. Of course, now that he has stopped using it, we're below that now. Probably.

EVE online only hit 300k back in May. With MKD release back in July and a fairly significant update in December, I would think FFXI is probably still a bit ahead of EVE's for now--but the next year likely will see the subscription lines crossing on the chart, with SE encouraging that trend, FF14 siphoning off a large portion of our population.

Kinda amusing to think that what WoW and its semi-clones attempted but couldn't really do, SE probably will accomplish--drain enough subscribers to fundamentally alter FF11's playerbase, in-game economics, and profitability. lol.

* * *

While writing this already long winded response, it occurred to me that by predicting a dwindling userbase, I'm also saying that the server utilization will drop significantly. That will probably look rather awful on the balance sheets.

Yet, it can also be an opportunity. With the release of FF13 worldwide next year and FF14 as well, there should be a worldwide halo effect for the entire franchise. While the markets currently served by FF11 will likely see declining interest in FF11 due to FF14, in markets outside of those area may actually become more interested in FF11 along with FF14.

The declining utilization means expansion into new markets will not require additional capital investment or increase in existing expenditure in server center. (Would require new customer service infrastructure, though, and maybe translation work if looking to get players who don't speak English, Japanese, German, or French.)

Porting to new platforms would probably not be cost effective or worth the risk at this late game (unless SE can license FFXI for other platforms to third party companies and take reduced profit to reduced risks). The biggest language segment I see not currently covered would be the Chinese language--but China's government probably wouldn't allow Chinese players to free mix with foreigners--and the protest against Chinese RMT would likely overwhelm SE.

Next biggest would probably be Spanish and Russian? Who knows?

There's also the possibility of using price adjustment as a user retention tool; the 2009 ultimate collection came out the same time as the latest add-on, and it is currently only US$11 on Steam. SE is looking to get as many new subscribers as it can in the countdown to FF14, it looks like, and price/value is the current weapon. No reason not to think the company wouldn't use better value/price next on existing players on the eve of FF14 launch to keep people paying for FF11 subscriptions even as they rush headlong into the latest and greatest MMORPG.


Just random speculations...