Hello, Would You Be Willing To Help Settle A Bet?

Drg polearm onry!!!

If it makes you all feel better for derailing the poor DNC thread i refuse to come to a merit PT on SAM until i get a tomoe.

Until then ill come RDM or DRG where ***is done right lol.

Good polearm SAM > Good polearm DRG.

Semantics, fine. Thats not really the point I was getting at though. The point was that DNC played purely as DD with very specific gear and merits is a very good DD. I rarely saw a Hagun weilding SAM hit over 650dmg at the bird camp, I was easily doing more than that without building flourish. 21% haste in gear, 10% from samba, sabre dance, double march and haste spell plus regularly hitting WS's for 1000dmg is nothing to scoff at really. As I mentioned before, good luck finding a DNC who can consistently perform at that level, and there you have the real problem.

I'm really sorry to *** your boat Faiye, but if your coming even remotely close to out damaging anyone at a merit party on your DNC you're all doing it wrong lol.

Again though, you're talking about ***DDs, you said it yourself
I could outdamge that on MY DNC, and I have 0 dagger merits and no suppa. 650, seriously? That is not even in the ballpark of a good sam. I could do 650 w/ a friggin soboro, yet alone a hagun on birds.

i really really wish i could agree with you >_>

drakesbane is just too good

There's something unbelievably odd about that.. My Onimaru averaged 700~800 the last merit PT I was in, and my SAM gear is far from amazing.

Drakesbane is great I'll admit, but the numbers are not anywhere near consistent.

Most people are unaware that a tomoe SAM with proper gear can either outdo or keep up with relic owners.

But that's merits... lol.

EDIT: go go FFXIAH webserver R0~

And as far as the haste goes, double march and haste work AGAINST you rather than for you when comparing to a two hander and here's why. Haste is cumulative. The more haste you have the better. 2hander DD will have more haste to start with (hasso) and thus gains more of an increase from every additional haste added afterward, including your samba. You will parse best against a two handed DD with less haste involved than you would vs one with as much haste as you can get.

I was about to say what everyone else said but it was the 5:30 temp site freeze so I didn't bother.

As for 650 damage with Hagun...Did you check them? Are you sure they're not using Zanbato, the LV60 impostor-Hagun? Because I can beat 650 with Soboro...And my SAM is almost naked.

I have BOTH drg and sam

Drg TP:
Valk Fork/Sword Strap/empty/Black Tathlum
Turban/Love Torque/Brutal/Active minuet(or fowling earring)
Aurum Cuirass/Homam/Rajas/Blitz
Forager's/Vbelt/Homam/Homam

This build caps my acc at birds.

Drg WS:
Valk/Sword strap/empty/black tathlum
Heca/Love/Brutal/Minuet
Aurum/Heca/Rajas/Thunder
Cuchulain's/Warwolf/Ares/Heca
This build puts me exactly at 117 dex (Crit cap for colibri)


Sam TP:
Tomoe/Pole Grip/empty/Black Tathlum
Usu/Love Torque/Brutal/Active Minuet (or fowling)
Usu/Usu/Rajas/Toreador's
Cuchulain's/Vbelt/Usu/Usu

This build puts me at about 91% on lv 82 birds and about 94% on lv 81 birds (with meat and no madrigal or hunter's roll) so averages out to 92-93% on a parse for my hitrate

Sam WS:
Tomoe/Pole/Empty/Black Tathlum
Hissho Hachimaki/Shadow Gorget/Brutal/Minuet (or fowling)
Haub+1/Bkote/Rajas/Toreador's
Forager/Virtuoso/Byakko's/Usu

This build is near cap on WS acc w/ a bunch of attack and other goodies


From playing both jobs, I can say my sam definitely takes the cake as the better DD, but DRG is not far behind, and is more fun for me, so I'm up to play both, but yes, sam definitely takes the cake if I had to pick one as superior.

ah right, i allways thought a good drg was better then polearm sam

No.

like vegetto says, it's not far behind. If drakesbane wasn't based on critical which we all know is the obvious "Maybe it'll crit" or "maybe it won't crit", it could possibly serve better on the parse results.

I personally have both and enjoy playing both myself. But as mentioned in the post above until i get my tomoe i'm not touching SAM on birdies.

I wouldn't exactly call that the reason. I can match, if not beat my sam's average with my dragoon's ws average, it's sam's ws frequency that takes the cake. Sam will get higher spikes and maxes, but when zerk is down, those lower numbers affect the average too, while drakes, even being based on crit, is more consistent than being based on whether zerk is up or not. Though, my drakesbuild has the dex crit cap of 117, I could imagine the average being lower for those who don't have that and a lower chance to crit in general.

I don't really have a problem with frequency due to /SAM but i don't have the same gear as you so i can't say that's the same case.

When you have typical DRG gear the variance in drakesbane is abysmal.

No

I think it's a healer or support, that does alittle damage, sorry if late

WOO~ wet t-shirt thread starting now~ go!

More pink bars for everyonez~

Overwelm, nothing more than that. 5hit/full meditate, are obviously grand, but overwelm is the real kicker. Its roughly 220+ more damage per ws. Toss in 1 less hit to ws, along with more tp per med, and the damage adds up quickly over time.

Not true. When I did my first merit party as DNC I was just as suprised as anyone else here. An LSmate insisted I come with him, I didn't think there was any point to me being there until I hit a 1300 dmg Dancing Edge and said "OMFG" out loud. It got the wheels turning in my head as before that the only DD'ing I had ever done was in campaign. I think the real distinction here is that a true DD job like SAM, DRG, or WAR doesn't have to try as hard, its an inherent property of their job. To play DNC as a DD you have to find every possible way under the vanadiel sun to squeeze all the performance you can out of your job. That includes changing your playstyle dramatically. Ignoring the impulse to cure people in your party and playing on the edge of your seat, constantly pushing yourself to keep up. You can't just walk into a party and expect to deal great damage because you are in effect altering what the job was designed for and even after all that effort you are really just barely standing toe to toe with the other DD in your party in the parse, and only at one specific camp.

So again, yes DNC can be a DD but it takes alot of effort that most people are not willing to put themselves through.

And see everything you say there is completely true. No argument there. But what you have to take into consideration is that all of the squeezing and "performance" tweeking you have been doing to hit that 1300... the others are NOT doing.

I'm not personally on ragnarok so i can't speak for it's playerbase, but if you constantly hit 1300's and the others do not... It's unfortunate and while good for you, the reality is that the other plays either bandwagon or level synced their way there.

The unfortunate truth is that by your logic, we should throw 5-6 dancers in a party and watch them do 35k+/hr (isn't going to happen).

This is how a good player of ANY job plays their job. Dnc is no special case here.

Also nobody is denying that dnc can do 1.3k WS and such, it's that the frequency and consistency of dnc doing good damage is going to be dramatically lower than of other jobs. For example, you mentioned 21% haste. You won't be doing this w/o sushi, while all the 2handers are eating meat and still having capped acc. This is a huge advantage here in terms of the DoT and average ws dmg.

Then you have ws frequency. Dnc doing anywhere near 1.3k WS dmg will not be keeping up w/ let's say a 5hit build polearm sam. I have dnc, I know how fast it can gain TP via reverse flourish, but I also know that reverse flourish and building flourish share the same recast timer. To get your zomg ws dmg, you're not going to be gaining that tp nearly as fast, as you won't be able to reverse flourish prior to or after a building flourish.

what camp was this at birdies?

That was going to be the next thing i pointed out. Even if you spammed steps and reverse flourish with capped haste samba by the time you build up that 1300 damage any good SAM or DRG worth his salt would have done weapon skilled 2-3 times.

Even if for argument sake you say a SAM only did 600-700 damage... that's at least 1500+ damage done by the time you did your 1300.

And that's with bare minimum "something is *** wrong" with the DD's.

Your logic is fine and nobody condemns you for optimizing your dancer.

But never assume by sheer WS numbers that you out damage a top tier DD. I highly recommend checking out KParser or Directparse tools used to compile battle related data.

It might discourage you quite a bit once you receive a final transcript upon the end of the party though.

So fair warning.


KParser:
Click Here

DirectParse:
Click Here

EDIT: If you wanted to get severely technical with this entire thread...

WHM/NIN can DD pretty well with hexastrike... and with the mythic WS mystic boon they even get as much MP back as they WS for... Corsair can also deal out some pretty decent gun damage... Dancer do this same thing but rather essentially for TP and nothing more... which is in turn usually used to support cure or whatnot.

To call dancer a DD is to put it on the same level as real DD's such as SAM DRG DRK WAR MNK. The DoT will never come close on anything that actually matters let alone a merit party.

It's a sad reality and i expected more out of the DNC job myself.

I took it to 75 in a matter of weeks after playing it at the fanfest. I expected much more ouf of the possible merits or future gear but was left sorely disappointed.

My dancer is never touched, used, or thought about. I wouldn't go so far to call the job useless... but sadly... the summary is:

lolDNC. ; ;

no

loldrg

lol is DNC a DD, (laughs) good one >.>

Drg is not lol, the problem is too many gimp players lvl it