WS Questions - Love Torque Or Sea Gorget

Hey all!
I thought i give it a try and ask my question around here.

Now that i finally got Love Torque i am not sure which i should use for WS.

I have Breeze Gorget for DE and Sharkbite and Soil for Evisceration.

There are a few scenario i am really not sure which would be better.

1.) Sharkbite WS w/o SA = i clearly would say Gorget.
buuut for SA SB is Love Torque better then Gorget?

2.) DE WS w/ and w/o SA
what will be better here? I think Love would be better over Gorget since its Multihit WS and Gorget acc is all Hits, but this fTP is only first Hit, will now 7 Dagger skill + 5dex eb better then this?

This is more or less my SA Setup i have atm, i have enkidu mitts also, which i add for WS. But i prefere to keep Af2 gloves on cause ppl allways panic when they catch a thf even one sec w/o them :P but this isnt part of this discussion!




just one thing:
i am not looking for awnsers like "i have no clue about THF, but a SAM should use Gorget even with haveing justice, so thf need aswell" i am not asking for SAM nor for Justice advices, i am totally sure THF WS will be different then SAM WS. Really looking for THF expiriences or for advices from all that who know the math stuff :)

Thx alotin advance!


Edit: Head augmented with STR/DEX4 WSACC+15/CritDmg+2%

full timing at like dynamis or somthing i can understand.. just being annoying putting on for every ra or w/e... but yeah, once your enmity is put onto the mob, the dice are rolled. putting on th+ or taking it off wont matter after the fact. and as for your question, any thief ive ever known tp's in torque/pcc, and ws's (sa/ta or not) in gorget. i dont think anyone even COULD give you concrete formulaic suggestions to either, besides just actually parsing the two in a very controlled experiment, since acc varies so greatly on 5 hits, capped or not.

most i asked in LS yet didnt really know, some think same like me that for SA DE Torque should be better. Thought i give it a try that maybe someone know better^^

+=

what im saying is, i dont think math formulas could tell you whats better to use with the 5 hit ws's dancing edge and evisceration, on account the acc on them vary so greatly. being @ capped acc, or not. i think the only way to get concrete # on it, would be doing a controlled experiment with both, and seeing what out parses what over time.

I would use gorget only with 1 hit WS

Cause thf has a ton of those....

This is my advice to you out of experience on my THF. As you can see there are no numbers, this was done to preserve my time, and your sanity. The following statements were based on the fact your daggers are meritted 8/8.

A) Buy a Thunder Ring.
B) Don't put relic hands into SA macro, you tag the mob with TH, your friends can worry about their own jobs.
C) Use Love Torque for ws on THF, /toss gorgets.

This is an opinion. As a side note, your gear is based on what you're fighting, experimentation is the only way to know what's best.

Right lets start with a few assumptions based on the what most people believe to be true.

a) Love and Gorget give the same accuracy (they are very close but i will say they are equal)
b) Gorgets accuracy affects all hits
c) You are WS @ 100 TP
d) All hits land, as the acc on the two items is considered equal (at least in this comparison) comparing hit rates is not relavent.
e) You are a hume (this doesn't make much difference)

Now I am not going to argue those assumptions, if you don't agree then you will have to make your own comparison.

So the comparison comes down to:

0.1fTP vs 7 attack and 5 DEX.


Weapon skills
Dancing edge (5hit):
Modifiers: DEX:30% ; CHR:40%
Damage Multipliers by TP:
100%TP 200%TP 300%TP
1.1875 1.1875 1.1875

Shark bite (2hit):
Modifiers: DEX:50%
Damage Multipliers by TP:
100%TP 200%TP 300%TP
2.00 2.50 3.00

Evisceration (5hit)
Modifiers: DEX:30%
Delivers a fivefold attack. Chance of critical hit varies with TP.:
100%TP 200%TP 300%TP
1.00 1.00 1.00

Mandalic Stab:
Modifiers: DEX:30%
Damage Multipliers by TP:
100%TP 200%TP 300%TP
2.0 2.125 2.50

Non SA WS comparison

WSC comparison
What I am doing here is, assuming D of 33, fSTR of 7 and assuming 106DEX for Torque and 101DEX for Gorget

Dancing edge
Gorget base damage = 65*5. 2875 = 343
Torque base damage = 66*5. 1875 = 342

0.3% in favour of the gorget

Shark bite
Gorget base damage = 81*3.1= 251
Torque base damage = 83*3 = 249

0.8% in favour of the gorget

Mandalic Stab
Gorget base damage = 65*2.1= 136
Torque base damage = 66*2 = 132

3% in favour of the gorget

Evisceration
Gorget base damage = 65*5.1= 331
Torque base damage = 66*5 = 330

0.3% in favour of the gorget

pDif from the Torque

Now comes the trick bit. 7 attack has to be accounted for somehow. Assuming 350 attack (someone tell me if that is an unreasonable assumption) and no buffs. Now without getting mob specific, we can only measure and increase in attack, not a direct change in pdif, so this will be inherently inaccurate, but a reasonable approximation.
357/350 = 2%
So you will be somewhere in the region of 1-3% increase in pdif for the torque.

Non SA conclusion

The results split into 2 groups:
Mandalic Stab in the first group, and all the others in the second group.

Mandalic Stab’s very low fTP value means it gets a large increase from the gorgets, probably too great an increase for the 2% increase in attack to close the gap, therefore I would suggest Gorgets for Mandalic Stab.

The rest, due to the high fTP values and differing modifiers (shark bite @ 50% dex) the difference in WSC between the torque and gorget is very minor, so minor that the extra attack is likely to tip the balance in favour of the torque.

As the gorgets are pretty convincingly beaten in all but 1 WS I think it is safe to say I don’t need to do the SAWS comparison as the Torque will naturally ‘do better’ in that situation.

Frankly I am surprised at this result, I thought in my head before I started working on this that it would be Gorgets for Non-SA and probably Torque for SA WS. But unless someone spots an error in the maths I am going to say Torque > Gorget for everything except Non-SA Mandalic Stab.

HiMandalic Stab

I dont have a Mandalic Stab gorget, thats why i didnt mention it even.
(i personally dont like that WS, i prefere SB and DE mostly)

I have Enkidu in WS as i said(maybe not clear enough), just not in SA setup alone(the one i posted above). My Inv is quite tight so i couldnt myself to buy a dex ring so far lol. I sometimes put enkidu into SA aswell (on longer fights), but on events like Dyn mobs die way to fast to change hands so often anyways.

Thx Argettio i cant say if its right or wrong but thanks :)

I spotted 1 error already, I didn't account for the CHR modifier on dancing edge. Adding this would only strengthen the case for Love Torque for dancing edge.

Veg will wake up in a few hours and probably have something to say on the subject.

LOL I knew Someone was gonna say Something about Vegetto here!!!!

OHMYGOSH that guy has like math skills that are that are simple and easy to understand. that and it blows your mind.

What about the attack multiplier on Mandalic? 1.66 or something (?). I use torque myself, figured it'd be especially good for Mandalic due to +attack

The numbers look mostly right. 350 att for being completely unbuffed is a little low for ws gear but 400 would be a bit high. Also a % change in att does not result in a % change in Cratio. In fact a +% change in att has an even higher +% change in Cratio if the mob is higher lvl then you and you aren't capping Ratio. Also as stated don't know the pdif but there are ranges where either high or low pdif don't move for a decent change in Cratio. Think there might even be smaller ones where neither change but haven't thought to look into that for the new formulas

Also 7 fstr is probaly what you would expect on a badly geared thf or against hard targets. Against say lolibri capping isn't that hard. Somewhat depends on merits race and quality of gear though for both those.

The chr mod of course is one thing. But if anything it would strenghten the case for gorget on DE. Higher base dmg means lower % change from adding more say from dex while ftp is still doing the same thing.

Also not sure why but it seems you assume exactly all the normal hits from manstab and SB but assume exactly 1 less from EV and DE. Granted it's more likely but still.

Also you forgot that manstab recieves a 66% attack boost. Pretty much it's one redeeming quality given that it has the exact same stat mods as SB but with 1 less hit AND lower ftp. In fact that attack boost is pretty much the biggest reason to use it since high def mobs completely wreck DE.

And while technically that would still mean the same % increase in att and ratio it would make have a higher % change on Cratio (assuming the mob is higher lvl then you) though how much is highly dependent on your Ratio and lvl difference. After that it who knows completely depends on the range. I'd do lolibri numbers but as already stated manstab is a waste of a ws on them.

Also the more hits you get the more it favors love obviously.

However while SA ws will favor love even more then it isn't as extreme as you might think. Partly due to the fact that the first hit will still do more dmg with gorget (on non manstabs anyways, well and evisceration will be about the same due to lower base dmg due to lower amount from stat mods) and that the first hit has a significantly higher pdif then the rest.

Don't mean to hijack but if I could can I ask a question?

DRG
Peacock Amulet, Love Torque, Light/Dark Gorget

Which would you guys recommend for DRG WS setups? To a DRG with capped skill, very high ACC.

I was thinking Gorget definitely for Wheeling Thrust [1hit 50% STR], and probably for Drakesbane [4hit, 50% STR] and Pentathrust [5hit 25% STR, 25% DEX] as well, but I didn't know if anyone thought PCA or when I get love torque would be better for either of the multi hit WSs. Thanks for any information!

That is sorta dependent on what you are fighting and your weapon dmg ws str and dex and what att you expect to have without the neck peice and for each ws. Do you know that info? Mob def would help alot too. So like debuffs on it if it's one we know the def of the mob. More info know more exact an answer can be given. Though obviously PCC is the loser there since they all the same acc really. Ancient torque would be a bit better than that though still not as good

Dynamis Mobs, Sea Gods, Sky Gods, Colibri Merits.
http://www.ffxiah.com/player.php?id=1512748#item_sets

Thanks again.

Well only colibri have stats. So the others will be approximates. As far as your your base str and dex would be helpful and how much att you rock since I don't know your merits food buffs nor wish to do the math on all that str to att. Also which sets? Wish or current?

Full STR, Polearm merits. Critical maxed, DRG category maxed.

in TP set w/o food
STR 75+22
DEX 65+17
Attack 393
Accuracy 40 + Acc. Bonus II JT

Thanks again.

edit: really wanted to post this screenshot for base stats http://www.ffxiah.com/screenshots.php?id=29604

I'd use Love for Drakes because of the dex.

Ok so to start with your base stats, 393att 75str 65 dex. Ill use your current gear sets. And weapon base dmg is 93

Penta/DB set gives you: +54str, 13att, 40 more att from more str, +31 dex

Wheeling thrust is: +60str, 13 att, 45 more att from str

Wheeling Thrust

Modifiers: STR:50%
Damage Multipliers by TP:
100%TP 200%TP 300%TP
1.75 1.75 1.75

Your stats without neck: 135 str, 451att.

Penta Thrust

Modifiers: STR:20% ; DEX:20%
Damage Multipliers by TP:
100%TP 200%TP 300%TP
1.00 1.00 1.00

Your stats without neck: 129 str, 446 att, 96dex

Drakesbane

Modifiers: STR:50%
Damage Multipliers by TP:
100%TP 200%TP 300%TP
1.0 1.0 1.0

Your stats without neck: 129 str, 446 att.

Greater colibri
Level 82: Defense 327, Evasion 339, VIT 67. Which means your wheeling set exactly caps you on fstr at 18 and the penta/DB is slightly under at 16. Put dia II or something equivalent since so many things give -10% def, to that on the mob to bring it's def to 294. Too make this a little easier I'll just assume the same base att since 5 isn't gunna shift the ratios that much and ftp is long calc.

Wheeling thrust: same base dmg just different ftps and att.

So 1.85/1.75= 5.71% increase in dmg before att.


Penta: Unfortunately it has a dex mod which complicates things so have to do base dmg.

Base dmg= weapon dmg+ fstr +wsc= Gorget: 93+16+37=146 torque: 93+16+38= 147

Base dmg*ftp= Gorget: 146*5.1= 744.6 Torque: 735. Gorget by 1.31% before att.

DB: Yay for same base dmg. So just 4.1/4.0= Gorget wins by 2.5% before att.

For attack at best I can get is approximate since I can't find numbers on wheeling thrust ignore defense trait so I'll assume at 100% it's 0. However if it is more than 0 it will benefit torque more.

Ratio= att/def= Gorget: 446/294=1.517 Torque: 453/294= 1.540

Cratio= Ratio- .05Xlvldiff= Gorget: 1.517-.35= 1.167 Torque: 1.54-.35= 1.19

Min pdif= 1.2XCratio-.5= Gorget: 1.2*1.167-.5= .9004 Torque: 1.2*1.19-.5=.928

Max pdif= .4+1.2Cratio= Gorget: 1.2*1.167+.4= 1.8004 Torque: 1.2*1.19+.4= 1.828.

So 1.53-3.07% increase from att.

So Gorget wins on wheeling loses on penta and pretty damn close on DB. However dex will help DB crit so that should break the dmg on that. However that being said messing with def att or mob lvl will change that. For example just strait up your att will shift things more towards Gorget. Raising it by a % could do either but if you are already doing so then it would favor torque more. Raising mob def will shift things more towar gorget. Raising mob lvl would be more towards torque. What a combination of those things could do who knows lol.

Wow, thanks a lot!! :D

I really appreciate the break down Dasva. This makes it a lot easier to understand.

I assumed a 2% rise in attack would be 1-3% increase in pdif depending on level correction. the 7 attack is the bit that makes this comparison hard.

I just picked 7 as it made for easy maths (33 + 7 = 40) and it seemed reasonable number.

I intended to assume all hits landed on all WS. So dancing edge fTP is 1. 2875 + 4 additional hits = 5. 2875.

Unless I am missing something.

Quote button failing but anyways. But yeah I know the first part is pretty hard without know exact att and def and such. Which factors highly into that

Lol @ easy numbers. But yeah I understand especially given the vague range that had to be given since couldn't find Cratio

And as far as EV and De you missed the offhand weapon hit. Granted that's only /nin but thf is /nin probably 95% of the time 100% if you don't do certain events. Actually going back it seems I missed you missing it for Manstab too seems you only added it for SB. Those extra hits if they connected would of course favor torque more.

AHHHHH the offhand hit.

Yeah I missed that...

(this is why I like 2 handers, much simpler)

dunno if this help much, but my att while WS is 354 totally unbuffed with /nin with 124 dex and 88 Str (Chr 48) with Torque. But mostly when i get to have a brd in PT i have double haste anyways so that wont change much on attack :)

Mainly useing thf on farming stuff like Dynamis, SCNM, maybe Inside Sea or Sky (so VT-IT mobs there) i never do any meripo on THF so idc about colibris but dunno if anyone can know def of those mobs in the events i listed

Without mod def/vit and lvl your exact stats won't help to much since pretty much everything is comparative.

Bah I'll just copy Arg based dmg/tp stuff and my pdif and edit. Since it is mostly right. For this I with your str I will assume fstr of 3 it might be lower since that is only assuming a mob vit of 83. You might want to think about getting more str in there. After all even DE evis and manstab str adds a tiny bit more than dex and some att. Not mention alot of good gear has both dex and str in it so not sure how your ws str is so low. Especailly when tping as fstr plays a huge role in dagger dmg. Also with mobs with that high of def more att. I'll assume a mob with 400 def after debuffs. That's sorta random but lolibri is like 320 so seems fair enough. And 8 lvl difference. If someone has values that are closer to what it would be that would help.

So the comparison comes down to:

0.1fTP vs 7 attack and 5 DEX.


Weapon skills
Dancing edge (5hit):
Modifiers: DEX:30% ; CHR:40%
Damage Multipliers by TP:
100%TP 200%TP 300%TP
1.1875 1.1875 1.1875

Shark bite (2hit):
Modifiers: DEX:50%
Damage Multipliers by TP:
100%TP 200%TP 300%TP
2.00 2.50 3.00

Evisceration (5hit)
Modifiers: DEX:30%
Delivers a fivefold attack. Chance of critical hit varies with TP.:
100%TP 200%TP 300%TP
1.00 1.00 1.00

Mandalic Stab:
Modifiers: DEX:30%
Damage Multipliers by TP:
100%TP 200%TP 300%TP
2.0 2.125 2.50

Non SA WS comparison

WSC comparison
What I am doing here is, assuming D of 33, fSTR of 3 and assuming 124DEX for Torque and 119DEX for Gorget 48 chr

Dancing edge
Gorget base damage = 84*6. 2875 = 528.15
Torque base damage = 85*6. 1875 = 525.9375

0.42% in favour of the gorget

Shark bite
Gorget base damage = 85*3.1= 263.5
Torque base damage = 87*3 = 261

0.95% in favour of the gorget

Mandalic Stab
Gorget base damage = 65*3.1= 201.5
Torque base damage = 66*3 = 198

1.76% in favour of the gorget

Evisceration
Gorget base damage = 65*6.1= 396.5
Torque base damage = 66*6 = 396

0.13% in favour of the gorget

pDif from the Torque

Now comes the trick bit. 7 attack has to be accounted for somehow.


Ratio= att/def= Gorget: 354/400=.885 Torque: 361/400= .902

Cratio= Ratio- .05Xlvldiff= Gorget: .885-.4= .485 Torque: .902-.4= .502

Min pdif= 1.2XCratio-.5= Gorget: 1.2*.485-.5= .082 Torque: 1.2*.502-.5=.102

Max pdif= .4+1.2Cratio= Gorget: 1.2*.485+.4= .982 Torque: maxpdif=1 for that whole range.

So 1.83-24.39% increase from att. Oh and yes that 24% is correct. That's what happens when you get such a low Cratio on min pdif.

Now manstab which gets 1.66 att. Your attacks would be 587 and 599

Now comes the trick bit. 7 attack has to be accounted for somehow. So


Ratio= att/def= Gorget: 587/400=1.467 Torque: 599/400= 1.497

Cratio= Ratio- .05Xlvldiff= Gorget: 1.467-.4= 1.067 Torque: 1.497-.4= 1.097

Min pdif= 1.2XCratio-.5= Gorget: 1.2*1.067-.5= .780 Torque: 1.2*1.097-.5=.816

Max pdif= 1 from .5-.833

So 0-4.62% increase from att. Also to note that the using torque the % increase in pdif from other ws to Manstab is 0-700% lol. Which is why manstab has it's uses against higher def mobs. Especially if you throw some more att on there. Number won't vary this crazy on say lolibri though. Or if you can get mob def alot lower

Whoops just noticed I used 1hand equation for max pdif on the polearm one.

Real max pdifs would be 1.4 and 1.428. That puts it at 2-3.07% instead of 1.53-3.07% increase

dont think i have much options for more STR in TP gear


maybe i could setup a not so havvy haste setup for more def/vit mobs (like Sky Gods), but i never fight them as thf anyways.

in WS well yea heca hands i can get, but i am still not sure if i buy HQ or not>< NQ would mean same DEX, 3 more STR but 5 acc less then current mitts, so it dont seem worth it for me.
i have another STR Ring but i thought acc might be better then 4 Str (yea still no flame ><)

I am "just" Mithra so i have this nice dex but sadly no STR ><

Ah I see enkidues mitts. I'd go for HQ it's not bad. Yeah I'm just a taru with int merits but for me I hit in my general ws set I get 97 str 105 dex 54chr and 353 att. Still need 2 more dagger merits. Though this will change a little when I stat using my anwig. Well and when start using bigger gear swaps to put in a real ws earring from suppa. And if I ever get love torque or more heca or start using a str or dex ring instead of acc. But would have to figure out if I could sacrifice said acc.

Probably wouldn't swap str for haste or acc if it is uncapped. But yeah thf doesn't really get much options for tping in since 6 slots are dedicated to haste the earrings are for DW and double attack. Don't really have/use str on ammo weapons or ranged. So taht really just leaves rings back and neck. Rajas and cuch/foragers are obvious yes's but the other 2...

But yeah that higher def really murders all dmg if you don't gear up more att or get its def down lower. And that vit kills low base dmg on tping. Well doesn't kill but has a much greater of effect then higher ones. Though the opposite is true if you get decent amounts over the mob. I mean 10 fstr on a 26 dmg dagger would be insane if you could actually maintain haste with that lol