Spharai Vs. Destroyers

Who thinks the Spharai's +5DMG and Attack+20 outweighs the Critical Hit Rate +6%? I don't, I don't think they look good either... Honestly I just want to get back on the top viewed list and there's nothin interesting going on but still post your thoughts.

Are you kidding?! Spharai has pain written right on the side of them! Can't beat that!

and are you forgetting about the WS attached to them and idk...the hidden effect of 2x+ dmg?? seriously i think you just want people to look at your posts lol

Well despite the fact that I've said that, that has an estimated 5% proc rate there and from what I've heard Final Heaven will not out damage Asuran in most situations.

Spharai have almost twice the delay.

Spharai certainly beat Destroyers. The only thing that makes them closer than perhaps they should be is the higher delay.

It would be highly dependent on things like how much base dmg you already have... so like fstr and h2h skill to see how much the base dmg adds by percentage.

Then you'd have to know your Cratio vs the mob to know how much the 20att adds or crit hit adds for that matter.

Higher base dmg will mean the extra dmg from relic will give it less of an advantage.

As far as Cratio that gets complicated since you are factoring att and crit. If you cap Ratio then the att will do nothing and generally the higher amount of att the less it will add by percentage. But the lower your ratio the more crit hit will add. But those crit hits could easily be doing more than double dmg compared to non crits

So really you'd need to give and example to properly do the math on this

Best case scenario though Spharai will win but the amount is marginal compared to how other relics are rediculous compared to what else you can get. Can almost garuntee at 99 Destroyers will always do more. Granted hopefully you'll get somtehing better by then or upgrade the relic. But defensively they are pretty awesome for mnk tanks

Meripo Birds? idk im very tired.

Hold on. Since your mnk isn't 75 I'll assume this is hypothetical and do a well geared str and H2h meritted elvann. I'll find my starting numbers in a sec.

Said hypothetical elvaan mnk/war will have base 80 str 73 vit 67 dex, 292 h2h skill. For this I will assume berserk is up and eatting pizza to cap acc. Greater colibri have 67 vit and 278 def with assumed Dia III on them and are lvl 82. Gunna ignore haste, double attack, and kick attacks as they will effect the speed at which you gain tp and more or less the dmg you get in that time the same. I say more or less cause obviously dmg from kicks wont be boosted more from spharias higher base dmg but will still get the crit hit boost so putting them about the same on kicks. But meh that's really icky to do. Also assume 6 hit asurans on average.


For tp gear I will assume astrolabe, Full usukane, sea torque, brutal, triumph, rajas/flame ring, BB, and Cuch. That would give a total of + 7 skill, 22 dex, 39str, 19 Stp.

That will give you a total of 299 skill, 89 dex 119 str, and 13 stp to tp in. Which would put your att with 522 or 547 att. Based on not having that much more dex then mob agi assume a 5% crit hit rate from dex. That would to an fstr of 14

For ws gear I will assume mostly the same except swap out usu head for MKE with 4 str 15 wsacc and 4 agi 2% ws dmg, hands for bandomusha kote, legs for hachiryu and wait for WW. This will raise str to 123, vit to 78, att to 552 and 577. That would calculate out to an fstr of 15

Base dmg for hand2hand is the weapon dmg +fstr + natural dmg.

Natural dmg is skill *.11= 32.

Fstr caps are done by weapon rank+8 and for h2h weapon rank is (weapon dmg +3)/9.

Spharai: DMG: +23 Delay: +86 Attack +20. Assumed 5% chance to do double dmg on melee hits.

Weapon rank: (23+3)/9 = 2. So puts fstr cap at 10. Yay we so over cap on ws and tp (in retrospect probably should've chosen gear slightly differently oh well)

Don't feel like doing that math so putting it into ffxicalculator that puts it at 6.4 sec base delay at 75, and 16 hits for 100% tp so really 14 with the ws or 7 attack rounds. Which would end up being 44.8 sec.


Tp round:


So base dmg is = Weapon dmg + fstr + natural dmg: 23+10+32= 65.

Ratio = att/def: 547/278= 1.96

Cratio = Ratio - .05*lvl dif: 1.96-.05*7= 1.61

Min pdif = -0.8 + 1.2 * cRatio: -.8 + 1.2*1.61= 1.13

Max Pdif = 1.2 * cRatio: 1.2 * 1.61 = 1.93

For simplisity I'll just use the average of 1.53. Or 2.53 on crit hits.

Average pdif with crit hits will will be: .95 * 1.53 + .05 *2.53= 1.58

Dmg per hit is base dmg* pdif: 65*1.58 = 102.7

So dmg till 100%: 14 * 102.7 = 1437.8.

Average 5% chance do to 3X dmg: 1437.8 *3 *.05 + .95 * 1437.8 = 1581.58

Asuran fist:Modifiers: STR:10% ; VIT:10%
Damage Multipliers by TP:
100%TP 200%TP 300%TP
1.00 1.00 1.00

And assuming 6 hits would be total of 6.0 for ftp

Wsc = .83*(.1 *str +.1 * vit): .83*(.1 *123 +.1 * 78)= 16

For ws base dmg is = Weapon dmg + fstr + natural dmg +wsc: 23+10+32+16= 81.

Ratio = att/def: 577/278= 2.07 capped to 2.00

Cratio = Ratio - .05*lvl dif: 2.00-.05*7= 1.65

Min pdif = -0.8 + 1.2 * cRatio: -.8 + 1.2*1.65= 1.18

Max Pdif = 1.2 * cRatio: 1.2 * 1.65 = 1.98

For simplisity I'll just use the average of 1.58.

ws dmg = base dmg* pdif * ftp: 81* 1.58 * 6.0 = 767

Total dmg per ws cycle = dmg from ws + tping: 767 + 1581.58 = 2348.58

Average dmg/sec: 2204/44.8 = 52.423

Destroyers: DMG: +18 Delay: +48 Critical hit rate +6%.

Weapon rank: (18+3)/9 = 2. So puts fstr cap at 10. Yay we so over cap on ws and tp (in retrospect probably should've chosen gear slightly differently oh well)

Don't feel like doing that math so putting it into ffxicalculator that puts it at 5.8 sec base delay at 75, and 18 hits for 100% tp so really 16 with the ws or 8 attack rounds. Which would end up being 46.4 sec.


Tp round:


So base dmg is = Weapon dmg + fstr + natural dmg: 18+10+32= 60.

Ratio = att/def: 522/278= 1.87

Cratio = Ratio - .05*lvl dif: 1.87-.05*7= 1.52

Min pdif = -0.8 + 1.2 * cRatio: -.8 + 1.2*1.52= 1.02

Max Pdif = 1.2 * cRatio: 1.2 * 1.52 = 1.82

For simplisity I'll just use the average of 1.42. Or 2.42 on crit hits.

Average pdif with crit hits will will be: .89 * 1.42 + .11 *2.42= 1.53

Dmg per hit is base dmg* pdif: 60*1.53 = 91.8

So dmg till 100%: 16 * 91.8 = 1468.8

Asuran fist:Modifiers: STR:10% ; VIT:10%
Damage Multipliers by TP:
100%TP 200%TP 300%TP
1.00 1.00 1.00

And assuming 6 hits would be total of 6.0 for ftp

Wsc = .83*(.1 *str +.1 * vit): .83*(.1 *123 +.1 * 78)= 16

For ws base dmg is = Weapon dmg + fstr + natural dmg +wsc: 23+10+32+16= 76.

Ratio = att/def: 552/278= 1.98

Cratio = Ratio - .05*lvl dif: 1.98-.05*7= 1.63

Min pdif = -0.8 + 1.2 * cRatio: -.8 + 1.2*1.63= 1.15

Max Pdif = 1.2 * cRatio: 1.2 * 1.63 = 1.95

For simplisity I'll just use the average of 1.55.

ws dmg = base dmg* pdif * ftp: 76* 1.55 * 6.0 = 706

Total dmg per ws cycle = dmg from ws + tping: 706 + 1468.8
= 2174.8

Average dmg/sec: 2174.8/46.4 = 46.870




tl;dr Relic wins by 11.8% under those conditions. Though it will be closer when berserk is down though would pretty much require doing most that calculations again to see how much

That math doesn't account for the Counter+10 either, which would increase damage and survivability. I would maybe argue that the counter enhancement is the most important thing about them; it makes them more than just a simple DD upgrade.

I was assuming a simple DDing. Really to hard to figure that all out. I mean how often you will have hate how often you will counter with each... it's way too variable. Obviously there may draw is as a tanking tool or just for when you get hate. Especially with there dmg so similar to something so easy to get

Monks can sub war in merit? Fuk dat lol rape of mp, mnk/nin onry. Mnk/war doesnt really work with very good gear unless someone pentas pretty fast so you arent tanking too much but a penta spam pty wouldnt invite a monk anyway unless its to tank temporarily off dot at start till they have tp for penta. Could only really mnk/war colibri with like 2 monk setup 1 dnc double brd and whm.

Mnks can get/keep hate off of sams and drgs and such on birds with just Dot?

Yes.

Well I mean like if no1 ws's at start 9/10 mnk is gonna tank even sub nin till a 2hander ws's I personally would never sub war as mnk on colibri unless it had dnc and only 1 other mnk ... vegetto.

Well for assuming the vit/str stays the same /nin (it doesn't but that's alot of work for something that will change by almost the same percentage on each) just taking off attack bonus and berserk puts it so that Spharai is only ahead by 4% by then (they both lose alot of dmg though lol). Taking off dia III might even throw it into Destroyers favor

Didn't look at dasva's math, but just from the conclusion i'd say it's almost spot on. Kinematics did a comparison on KI and they came to be 11-13% head of destroyers, so I'm happy w/ Dasva's conclusion w/o even looking at the math.

Btw, destroyers aren't even in mnk's top 3 h2h, maybe top 5 if they're lucky.

Basically what Vegetto/Dasva have said...Also, anyone who even thinks destroyers are the "Best" should not be allowed to play MNK, period.

Well what r these h2h that r supposly beter then destroyers and realistically obtained by most players? So that means no relic,mythic or shelongs.

Faith Baghs, Hades sainti+1 and the above listed.

So theres no logic behind this comment cause all these h2h that are better are extreamly hard to get beside faith which i really dont think are better.

Faith are better, use them for competitive parsing. Due to stones, use Destroyers when not in a dmg competition.

There is plenty of logic behind my statement, it's called parsing and math. I just didnt put all that mumbo jumbo into my post.

That all good but 3.9% isnt game breaking, but my main point was nothing is wrong with useing or considering destroyers 1 of the best h2h.

So say faith is 1 and destroyers 2, unless u all know something i dont on how to reasonably get the other 4 without yrs of work.

It's not that people say destroyers are good, it's that many people thing they are the end all be all, which they are not. People say Destroyers > this destroyers > that destroyers > relic, destroyers > ect ect.

Which is certainly not the case. They sit in about the number 5 spot.

Is there something i missed here?

He's saying he knows his ***

Yeah, you missed the posts Dasva and Vegetto made that clearly show how and why Destroyers are not all they have been cracked up to be. I need not post my own math because they have posted it for me.