December Update - DNC

I was just thinking that... but ugggggh. I don't want to play THF I want to play DNC... ; -;

Yeah seriously... My DNC gear is way better than my THF gear... and I'm a million times better when I use my DNC... and DNC is a lot more fun to me...

DAMMIT!!!

Yup. ._.; I think I'm just going to still use it and tell people to suck it up. :/

i was under the impression it was ranked around 3rd for a DD (/war?), but after war and mnk everything that benefits from RR is kind of fuzzy to me. haste samba merits aren't beneficial in high haste situations anymore (which is probably what you're usually in), but i guess they help if you solo a lot? D:

point still stands about everyone getting cure 4 from /whm as well, and giving dnc the healing capabilities of whm as well as decent DD/tanking capability is still a lot to ask imo.

Then how about AT LEAST a different timer for healing waltz? Is that really too much to ask for?

We lost a lot of theoretical damage with the 'delay reduction cap' along with the fact that Saber Dance and /war DA trait doesn't stack. We're not horrible but we're not great.

NIN/DNC is a better DD, a better Tank, and an equal healer to us right now with the level cap increase. Also better at soloing. We are actually completely useless as a main job. They should give us what we were designed to do--heal ***. We won't outdo WHM because we need to be ON a mob to do so, which we wouldn't be allowed to do in many situations.

A different timer for healing waltz would be nice, but it wouldn't make our job as a main any better. It'd just make it all-around better for everyone. :/

I play my dnc almost exclusively solo which is what I think job was meant for? Imo the two best things dnc has atm subs don't have access to. Fan and saber dance.

Nin/dnc outsolos the *** out of dnc/nin

Of course it does dnc has shyte for debuffs. but, I wasn't comparing dnc to anything but itself so not relevant that nin owns dnc solo.

oh, they don't stack? didn't know that. nobody i know really plays dnc much if at all.

serious question, what makes nin/dnc a better DD than dnc? they seem like they'd be about on par. i can see better tank with extra shadow on ni + af3+2 feet. dnc still gets a lot more use out of reverse flourish, but i don't know how much of a difference that really makes. i agree that healing waltz should be on a separate timer, waltz 5 sounds useless. i think it'd be fine with just waltz 4 on a separate shorter timer.

especially if you +2 the feet for an extra shadow on all your utsu castings...

now as /dnc ninja can blind2/slow2/para2/elemental, haste samba, waltz III, stun, animated flourish, has 4 and 5 shadow utsusemi, and higher base evasion than dnc...

they just killed dancer, even before this update, nin/dnc was pretty ridiculous.

hojo: ni is not slow 2, nin only gets jubaku: ichi and it's not very potent.

NIN got jubaku: ni?
NIN is going to be able to land violent flourish?
NIN has Eva Bonus job traits? edit: ok maybe it's more? idk I didn't do the math but someone told me nin/dnc has 1 more base eva than dnc/nin. QQ

lol animated flourish. I don't even know why that's on there. The enm it generates is pitiful.

They get Innin(is that the crit one?), RF is breakeven TP gain(with merits) vs meleeing, so using steps is actually a waste if you're trying to DD (kills your damage via JA delay).

If they split our timers, we'd be fine. Or at least, not be completely useless.

I don't see why nin wouldn't be able to land vio flourish. It's not like trying to land sleep on /blm (which is dependent on an actual skill). That flourish isn't dependent on a skill, so I don't see why a subjob wouldn't be able to land it.

With proper gear, I don't see why not.

what about excluding innin?

The problem with Innin though is that you only get the bonuses when you're behind the mob. So it's useless solo, and if you take hate from landing a big WS or nuke, it's not only useless, but craps on your eva and can get you in trouble.

Don't get me wrong, it's a great JA, but it has its drawbacks.

nin/dnc has higher DW rating for lower attack delay, higher base dmg weapons, (generally) more damaging weapon skills, buckets of subtle blow and now spells that reduce that further.

Dancers can weapon skill quite frequently with reverse flourish, and/or can beef WS up with building/wild flourish but we don't often get to do so in smaller groups as we're often main-heal/tank in those settings and it's safer to stock-pile TP, or we're backup heal in a bigger group.

It's not too terribly often that a dancer gets to go all-out nuts on mobs, my LS lets me do it in abby since i have decent atmas and there is a lot of haste available when we go, putting my delay really low. My haste/dd build isn't terribly evasive and I'll take it to the face more than a few times, so you need other healers pumping cures into you like any other DD, which as most DNC will tell you feels wrong somehow, I have a hard time resisting the urge to pump waltzes into people I see in the yellow.

back to the original question though, going from basic stats/traits a ninja will outdo a dancer. if you do get to go ape on things as dnc, the ninja next to you generally has the same buffs anyway : /

bleh, the para2 was fail on my part, they would very likely be able to land violent flourish, every bit of evasion helps (I was also referring to skill rating initially), and animated flourish, while not so hot without enmity buffs, is still a hate tool, and every bit of enmity you can make is helpful.

i would think evisc would be on par if not better than jin, subtle blow is irrelevant for strictly DD and dnc can cap sb anyway.

ninian says reverse flourish isn't really a means to build tp, so i'd imagine it'd be useful more for a backup? so you can ws but have tp at your disposal for cures if you need it.

not really, you might be better off using the tp for ws.

DE / Evis is on par with Jin as far as I can tell, and depending on what you're fighting, Saber Dance + Drain Samba III is sometimes feasible on DNC with a full evasion setup (ex. it is possible to solo Khalamari like this). When that is an option, I don't think NIN would not hold a candle to DNC in terms of DPS. On the other hand, NIN has higher Subtle Blow, which is equally situational in my opinion (e.g. TP moves that bypass shadows, NMs w/o Regain).

As for VF, the stun effect from Violent Flourish is magical and therefore based on magic accuracy / evasion; you also have to land the hit, or it cannot possibly proc. DNC relic body greatly raises the magic acc of this effect, so unless you're stacking macc on NIN/DNC, the proc rate will be extremely low against any mob higher level than you.

Gotta count job traits along with skill for comparing eva base. DNC gets some really nice eva bonus traits, NIN gets none unless it has /dnc or /thf on.

I really think animated flourish is useless. Even putting on every bit of +enm gear I own, the only time I've ever seen it cause a mob to turn is when the mob had just done a reset hate JA (on nin/dnc). Admittedly, it is nice for that, but a quick nuke, or just running up and smacking it with a katana is almost as fast for that purpose.

Posting on shitty phones, but NIN gets SB past the cap. 70 for NIN vs 50 on DNC.

debatable really, if it were me I'd keep 5 FM on hand for when I need them, not just auto-stepping every 15 seconds just because, can reverse if just WS and got hit with a TP move or something for a quick cure, or keep them on hand for animated if it's teetering from one person to another. I'm not saying that animated is going to make nin/dnc a super tank or anything, but certainly for small group things it's now better than a dancer, which is where dancer really could shine.

de isn't a crit ws, so it'd just be evisc.


like they just have a different cap or does that extra 20 come from something specific?

well we always had animated flourish, but i dunno if it's really worth using. like the guy above said, there are other things you could do to generate the same enmity.

I don't remember offhand names, but it comes from I think spells that lowers' the mobs ability to gain tp, then the other is something that reduces the tp they feed, not counted as SB. Then onto of that they have the 50 SB cap with gear/traits. Their SB trait is higher than dnc iirc, so they need less gear, sacrificing less important stats compared to dnc.