December Update - DNC

Are we just talking about in Abyssea here, with Razed Ruins active, or everywhere? Evis. hands down in Abyssea w/ RR, but DE usually outperforms it outside (and w/ Building Flourish).

I thought we were comparing dnc/nin and nin/dnc, so they get some bonuses too...


I'm often the TP mob holder if we're trying to proc in abby, and I don't have problems holding hate/pulling hate back with animated flourish while fan danced (+15 enmity/20%dmg reduction), I know yonin deteriorates to +10 enmity, but even then it's a good sized enmity boost.

if I know I'm only going to be fighting things that are VT~ or less I go /war sometimes for fandance/defender/provoke/animated and get a bit spammy on waltzes, divine II is a fun hate tool :P

Animated flourish is only useful for pulling a fresh mob to you, or pulling it back after you suffer a hate reset move. Even then it still sucks. It's 30sec you can't use violent flourish, it's iirc 2FMs.... Etc.

being that i have sch as well this is MFW i saw the adjustments:

so the 20 comes from the penance and sb ninjutsu? or only the sb one?

dnc gets a decent amount of sb, and i guess the amount you need to sacrifice depends on what you're doing (e.g. if you're not tanking you're don't really care about sacrificing evasion for sb on auric)

NIN/DNC and DNC/NIN are roughly equal in base evasion (NIN has 13 higher skill, +22 from /DNC traits; DNC has +34 from traits) if you assume 1 Evasion ~ 1 Evasion Skill.

If we're talking about abyssea only, don't most NMs have some amount of Regain (or something similar)? If so, the Subtle Blow difference is not as big of an issue. Not saying it isn't at all, but I don't think it would make or break it.

I'm not too familiar with what evasion gear NIN has access to, but is it roughly equal to DNC's? I believe I'm sitting on +95 from gear in my soloing set, 10 of which is from Empyrean +1 legs.

Edit: I just logged on and checked, those legs are the only piece I'm using that NIN does not also have access to.

Yurin: ichi gives "inhibit tp" effect to the mob - it's the same thing MNKs have had for ages with Penance merits for Chi Blast. Only difference is that a NIN can keep it up full time and you need 2x MNK to pull that off.

I think "It's not completely useless" and "it's pretty damn awesome" are getting confused in what I'm saying : /

to be clear it's the "it's not completely useless one" I use it sometimes as a hate tool, mostly as a pull a mob move, and yes, to re-grab after a hate-reset. I'm not just sitting there spamming it away :P

i was just talking about abyssea. non-abyssea isn't really worth discussing yet.

Oh ok. Ty. @Yuna, *** lol'd. :<

nobody said you said it was awesome, they said that even for its limited uses, it's probably not worth the ~10-27tp/stun when you could do something else to generate the same enmity.

O ok. VF's sometimes better than AF, if you can catch the mob before it runs too far.

NIN90/DNC45 gets Evasion Bonus II from the /DNC for +22 Evasion
DNC/Whatever gets Evasion Bonus III for +34

what's the range on vf?

It's probably like 3-5 yalms. It's enough that if you see the mob turn you can react and stun it if you're not stuck in any kind of animation lock.

which they can replace with ocelot's trousers.

Yeah, I more or less answered my own question. XD

Unless there are some cool evasion pieces NIN has access to that DNC does not, I'm going to assume the two jobs are on par from an evasion perspective.

rasetsu tekko +1/seiryu's kote/usu gote (marginal differences compared to slither)
af1+1 head(marginal again)
ungur boomerang
hachiryu feet

but yeah, no big differences.

Charis Tights +2 are the only thing that gives more +Evasion than other gear both jobs have access too. And not too many DNCs out there atm probably have them =/

Hurray for 15 Evasion 5 Dagger Skill and 5% Haste

Even if they didn't have access to better Evasion gear (Also note Usukane Haramaki has amazing other stats) they have a million *** shadows. Also the Acc/Counter on Usukane Gote aren't anything to laugh at, especially considering they have access to Gnarled Horn if they so choose.

Anyway, poor DNC. SE needs to fix it.

Well remember, Dnc gets eva bonus, but nin gets Kurayami

Edit: Dnc's eva bonus is +34

nin/dnc gets eva bonus 10 (will get +22 next update) and Kurayami is enemy acc-30

Ignoring Kurayami they have about the same eva right now (don't remember if I included /DNC on that or not). Kurayami + more eva bonus from sub makes NIN the clear winner unless DNC gets some seriously nice eva gear next update. Also, I think Tummie said the new ninjutsu might be some kind of acc down.

They only have similar base eva right now if you include the eva bonus from /dnc or /thf for NIN. If you're talking about the main job only, DNC's eva bonus trait more than makes up for NIN's higher skill.

I certainly can't argue that Kurayami doesn't make a difference though, and I would be incredibly surprised if the new ninjutsu is acc-, but who knows.

I also included gear.

Same or similar Evasion or not though, the attraction of NIN is evasion and being able to kill the mob in a decent amount of time, which is what THF and DNC fail at.

Less time to kill = Less chance your evasion will fail and KO.

That and four shadows on Ni natively, and now with new EA +5 on Ni +4 on Ichi

We're not

I don't know why NIN and DNC are seen as being in competition, after all NIN/DNC were very happy to get stuff for solo from sub and DNC were very happy to get some of the nin traits (dual wield, subtle blow, and not just a boring level 1 but a trait that increases with levels) they have both been getting beefed up in most of the updates up till now.

In fact NIN are also disapointed (that they still aren't getting the basic stuff they've been wanting for ages, such as Jubaku Ni, etc.) but overall I think they've been getting other decent stuff so it compensates and maybe they'll get those later.

Maybe some DNC got a bit spoiled by all the updates they were given so far and are disapointed about this one, but there's more stuff coming, seems obvious DNC will get new cool stuff in the next updates, not to mention whatever new system they wanna add that will be the equivalent to merits for level 99. They did mention something about trying to remedy to the fact DNC are useless if they have no TP.

Either way, I seriously doubt SE is trying to have them compete for who's useful and who isn't, they just have stuff in common and at the same time they are very different. Curing Waltz 3 as sub makes sense because hp keeps going up, and curing waltz 2 would have become a bit of a joke as sub anyway. Also waiting on the stats for AF pieces before being negative about stuff xD

climactic flourish is garbage
presto is so so
divine waltz 2 is for maybe zerg only, but hey sch can handle that outside of party.
feather step is nice, but not game breakingly better than box step, could've got along fine with box
dual wield is more of a kudo's thing as a subjob

and to come:
cw5 will never be used
striking flourish is meh at best considering i dont find it ideal to spend FM on something we do relatively common anyways


so yeah..... spoiled

We are FFXI's spoiled children. Lemme tell ya.

didnt SE forget to add the charis tiara when scars came out?