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Mainly, for the real RDM, but,... Ninja nerfga.
サーバ: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 11680
By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2010-06-25 12:07:28
Odin.Zicdeh said: Tanks what just fine though? I mean, obviously if it's something you can inflict damage on, DRK will be able to tank perfectly fine, but like on Aspidochelone, where you can only rely on the enmity from spells, I'm not sure what's in DRKs' repetoire in terms of CE-VE generation, aside from the original Bind/Stun/Sleep/SleepII/Aspir JA This is what I was saying and that you'll probably struggle (if it works at all) on the rest. Your remaining CE tools are Drain/Drain II when functional, Aspir, Stun, Absorb TP, and probably Aspir II. I don't know if this creates a workable CE gain or not though.
By Darkpearl 2010-06-25 12:24:47
For the first I'm happy SE power some other jobs instead always the same jobs. I see always RDM complaining here and there, wtf do you guys want now?I prefer a game where all jobs are useful and necessary. And btw for me I always prefer WHM instead SCH or RDM (at last in healing mode), yes thats mean in event I prefer have WHMs as healers. Anyway don't know why people always complain. I like this updates. And it mobilized some PPL from exping on colibri and Imps camp -.-. I'm main SAM and DNC, sekkanoki went from 60 to 40? Who care, if it help make other jobs better why not? And yes, I'm happy that RDM got a little gimped. All jobs should be usefull. Of course that is mine opinion, and doesn't care what other say here or think. It's a game.
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 Bahamut.Habs
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 58
By Bahamut.Habs 2010-06-25 12:29:37
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 Ramuh.Ilvex
サーバ: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 202
By Ramuh.Ilvex 2010-06-25 12:38:14
You will not hold hate with just cure's, and in a low man situation somebody will prolly die be for you grab hate with cure 4. Whats the point of /nin if the mob never looks your way?
mmm odd I thought pld had some sort of high enmity spell that could be compaired to what rdm/nin did with sleep/bind/blind ect hmmmm
サーバ: Siren
Game: FFXI
Posts: 493
By Siren.Catabolic 2010-06-25 13:10:35
Ramuh.Ilvex said: I thought having the ability, given enough notice to bring the correct gear, to tank instead of it only being pld, and even rarer then rdm (Nin tanks) to LS events was being a team player? also no need for phalanx 1 or 2 now, pld has it's own, my merit spell is completely useless now and AoEing phalanx1 is kinda niffty I guess but still meh. And your wronge the original purpose of rdm was the ability to be a healer, a tank, a weak DD, a weak nuker ect ect. The only reason we are the main enfeebler is we have nothing better to do and we get slow2, if gear'd properly whm, blm, and sch can = Rdm on enfeebs. They only thing we really hold over them is slow 2 but they can just use slow 1.
So when did Whm, Blm, & Sch get 320+ enfeebling skill w/gear & merits? I must have been asleep and missed that memo/update...Lets be honest no job will EVER even come within a stones throw of Rdms enfeebling skills lol. Geared for enfeebling all 3 of those jobs come nowhere near a meritless, gear gimped Rdm. Let alone someone who's put in some effort into the job.
On another note I wonder why ppl are so quick to think Rdm's tanking abilities have been nerfed. They're only reduced at level 80(4 days into 1st update ppl lol) SE might be nerfing enmity on spells because of things they still have in store for Rdm in future updates. Maybe after those updates, if they hadn't nerfed enmity on those spells Rdm would = game broke?
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サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4554
By Bahamut.Raenryong 2010-06-25 13:18:43
Bahamut.Habs said: do it like a pal...spam cure 4s,and wear emnity gear.
Paladin gets a much larger enmity+ equipment pool than RDM as well as supplementary hate tools so that their entire focus isn't on selfcuring. A RDM is going to have to burn a ridiculous amount of MP.
サーバ: Siren
Game: FFXI
Posts: 788
By Siren.Miayoko 2010-06-25 13:26:46
Cata it's no use your in a thread full of butthurt RDM's that no matter what SE does they will whine and complain they got shafted and screwed over somehow.
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サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4554
By Bahamut.Raenryong 2010-06-25 13:28:30
It depends really. I wouldn't say we got screwed over but it's like they've cut a part of us loose to give us a small boost. If you played RDM a lot to its limits before, this boost is small compared to what has been cut out and so it feels like a nerf. If you were a very support-orientated RDM before, then this rightfully feels like a boost.
Caitsith.Mahayaya
サーバ: Caitsith
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3341
By Caitsith.Mahayaya 2010-06-25 13:35:37
On a side note, Blue Mage got some pretty nice tanking tools in this update. Regeneration, Animating Wail, and Battery Charge give 320/320 CE/VE. This means that while we buff ourselves, we can maintain hate.
I've got a feeling Blue Mage will be replacing Red Mage's tanking spot as far as low man situations are concerned. They'll be able to set Fast Cast trait, be self-reliant on buffs and occasional cures, and maintain high hate levels with relative ease. All that's needed now is a more efficient Stoneskin and we're set. :D
サーバ: Siren
Game: FFXI
Posts: 788
By Siren.Miayoko 2010-06-25 13:38:50
I've played both. I just see it this way. IT'S SQUARE ENIX!!! And, I'm optimistic that somewhere in the next two updates that we might get something. So many people are up in arms thinking its the end of the world as we know it when we have two more to go.
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サーバ: Siren
Game: FFXI
Posts: 203
By Siren.Screamingbabies 2010-06-25 13:42:35
Siren.Miayoko said: I've played both. I just see it this way. IT'S SQUARE ENIX!!! And, I'm optimistic that somewhere in the next two updates that we might get something. So many people are up in arms thinking its the end of the world as we know it when we have two more to go.
OH GOD... Two more updates full of these type of threads...
サーバ: Siren
Game: FFXI
Posts: 493
By Siren.Catabolic 2010-06-25 13:49:43
*busts out a violin and plays softly in the corner*
and for all the butt hurt rdms who overlook what we did get and will also QQ when the new updates come out. I can also play the Incredible Hulk end show song as you walk away from the game instead of crying into your bowl of butthurtloops
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サーバ: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 89
By Odin.Akhilleus 2010-06-25 13:52:03
Siren.Catabolic said: Ramuh.Ilvex said: Quote: So when did Whm, Blm, & Sch get 320 enfeebling skill w/gear & merits? I must have been asleep and missed that memo/update...Lets be honest no job will EVER even come within a stones throw of Rdms enfeebling skills lol.
SCH can get nearly 320 in fact, very close to RDM with good gear, AF hands +7, Enfeebling Torque +7, Enfeebling earring +3, Avocat pigaches +3, AF body +15, Altruistic cape +5, oracles gloves +5, elite beret +1 +5, Layqa Seraweels +2
Base of 256 under grimoire light or dark
+ 16 from 8/8 merits
Thats 272
Add up the gear that = 52
272 + 52 = hmmmm 324, thats 320+ to me, but not out to prove you wrong.... much, just shows you SCH isnt too far beind in those stakes but Anything worth enfeebling should be done by a RDM,,, granted, just SCH soloing etc is very capable of landing most ***unresisted.
サーバ: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1304
By Odin.Dirtyfinger 2010-06-25 13:52:28
Odin.Akhilleus said: Siren.Catabolic said: Ramuh.Ilvex said: Quote: So when did Whm, Blm, & Sch get 320 enfeebling skill w/gear & merits? I must have been asleep and missed that memo/update...Lets be honest no job will EVER even come within a stones throw of Rdms enfeebling skills lol.
SCH can get nearly 320 in fact, very close to RDM with good gear, AF hands 7, Enfeebling Torque 7, Enfeebling earring 3, Avocat pigaches 3, AF body 15, Altruistic cape 5, oracles gloves 5, elite beret 1 5, Layqa Seraweels 2
Base of 256 under grimoire light or dark
16 from 8/8 merits
Thats 272
Add up the gear that = 52
272 52 = hmmmm 324, thats 320 to me, but not out to prove you wrong.... much, just shows you SCH isnt too far beind in those stakes but Anything worth enfeebling should be done by a RDM,,, granted, just SCH soloing etc is very capable of landing most ***unresisted.
サーバ: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 89
By Odin.Akhilleus 2010-06-25 13:54:00
Managed to quoto myself somehow in last post lol -.-
サーバ: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1304
By Odin.Dirtyfinger 2010-06-25 13:56:19
Odin.Akhilleus said: Managed to quoto myself somehow in last post lol -.-
サーバ: Siren
Game: FFXI
Posts: 493
By Siren.Catabolic 2010-06-25 13:59:37
320 was more of a loose guideline. A 75 Rdm pre-update with all the top gear and merits could actually hit around 345 enfeebling. Any job other than rdm enfeebling is like any race other than taru being BLM. You can come close to matching them, but if they put in any effort into gear, merits, skill-ups you stand no chance. (I do appreciate SCH though)
サーバ: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 11680
By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2010-06-25 14:01:31
Siren.Catabolic said: Ramuh.Ilvex said: So when did Whm, Blm, & Sch get 320 enfeebling skill w/gear & merits? I must have been asleep and missed that memo/update...Lets be honest no job will EVER even come within a stones throw of Rdms enfeebling skills lol.
SCH can get nearly 320 in fact, very close to RDM with good gear, AF hands 7, Enfeebling Torque 7, Enfeebling earring 3, Avocat pigaches 3, AF body 15, Altruistic cape 5, oracles gloves 5, elite beret 1 5, Layqa Seraweels 2
Base of 256 under grimoire light or dark
16 from 8/8 merits
Thats 272
Add up the gear that = 52
272 52 = hmmmm 324, thats 320 to me, but not out to prove you wrong.... much, just shows you SCH isnt too far beind in those stakes but Anything worth enfeebling should be done by a RDM,,, granted, just SCH soloing etc is very capable of landing most ***unresisted. Problem: you have ***for potency with all that skill gear. RDM lands full potency enfeebles (and stronger ones at that, at least in Slow II's case) more reliably than any other job. 307 skill with just base skill, merits, and DChap. SCH can't touch that, especially given that RDM can exceed that value easily if it's more important to simply land the enfeeble.
And why do people still think Avocats are good? Get Goliard.
Caitsith.Mahayaya said: On a side note, Blue Mage got some pretty nice tanking tools in this update. Regeneration, Animating Wail, and Battery Charge give 320/320 CE/VE. This means that while we buff ourselves, we can maintain hate.
I've got a feeling Blue Mage will be replacing Red Mage's tanking spot as far as low man situations are concerned. They'll be able to set Fast Cast trait, be self-reliant on buffs and occasional cures, and maintain high hate levels with relative ease. All that's needed now is a more efficient Stoneskin and we're set. :D CE gain has never been an issue for BLU. Efficient VE gain has been a bit of an issue though, which led to us dumping MP very quickly without support. We got additional refresh gear this update and some enmity+ gear too, which will help with that... plus, we're no longer dependent on a RDM for Refresh. BLU tanking could very well make a comeback, especially if TP feed is dangerous on many of the new NMs.
 Phoenix.Darki
サーバ: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9949
By Phoenix.Darki 2010-06-25 16:48:50
who cares if RDM wasnt the purpose of tanking, if it can do it IT WILL do it :P *** it.
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Leviathan.Aneu
サーバ: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 184
By Leviathan.Aneu 2010-06-26 03:46:45
I was speaking solely about NIN/DRK as I haven't got to tank anything requiring NIN/RDM. Was only saying NIN/DRK isn't affected as much as a previous poster thought. And I don't see why engaging the mob had much to do with it....
By Lancenageem 2010-06-26 04:34:32
Sorry..... I read 3 pages of WAAAAA mixed with BOOHOO and a little bit of ... huh?
I am a career RDM with several other Lv75 jobs mixed in there. This update hasnt nerfed my abilities to do my JOB one damn bit. If anything... this update has enabled me to better focus myself to doing just that job. so far I have only explored up to Lv77 RDM (mostly b/c RL sucks atm) but I see no Nerf. If you really only relied on <blind> & <dispel> as your "Main" enmity keepers you were brob still screwing up anyway. RDM has alot more to offer anybody serious about playing it.
What is your role @ lv80+ .... Sit down and STFU, Do your JOB, play your game and effin Deal. RDM IS GOD, RDM HAS ALWAYS BEEN GOD and WILL ALWAYS BE A GOD of the mages unless your just really crappy.. in that case level something else and let the real RDM lol @ you. I dont claim to the best RDM on the server, or any server or even in my own shell.. however WOW I really get tired of other RDM making WHAA-Fests out of every topic. Please /logout or level something else.
WHM/RDM pops Divine Seal + Convert + Cure w/e and gets his/her face crashed in with enmity. (welcome to the suck!)Thank god you got RR3. Special Note: Already seen that happen.. funny stuff.
Bismarck.Siggymund
Premium
サーバ: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 95
By Bismarck.Siggymund 2010-06-26 04:48:04
I would take less enmity on sleep any day of the week.
By Lancenageem 2010-06-26 04:55:38
I forgot to post about the SCH Debate ~vs~ RDM Enfeebling "Skill". Sitting at my current Lv77 with 346 Enfeebling Skill, being able to still add: Nash Pants, Alt Cape, Earring & Advocate's(crap)Pigaches that would be another +16 for a total of 362 currently. In order for another job to have nearly that skill they sacrifice the INT & MND needed to extend the duration and effectivness of the spells. I Choose not to own the Earring & The Advocrap Pigaches and I dont own the Nash Pants or Alt. Cape b/c fate is a cruel ***.
Yes the skill matters a lot. YES YES YES it does but having the *** to back it up counts equally as much. By the time you stack & stack what it would require on another job, to reach anything near a RDM you just have skill without any umph.
Attack this comment as you see fit with the barrage of c&p factoids you may find.
Honestly I'm just still pissed at the original post & a few that followed for being a WHAA Fest. Really.
By Dragonimi 2010-06-26 07:06:51
Any of you seen what happens when your run of the mill SMN burn tries to hold hate with these commonly used tanking spells now?
The results are rather hilarious.
SMN uses Astral flow, SMN uses uber OMG damage ***button....
One SMN decides to use a cookie..... Said SMN, and all his resting buddies Die....Repeat next pull. lol
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Leviathan.Aneu
サーバ: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 184
By Leviathan.Aneu 2010-06-26 10:25:54
Dragonimi said: Any of you seen what happens when your run of the mill SMN burn tries to hold hate with these commonly used tanking spells now?
The results are rather hilarious.
SMN uses Astral flow, SMN uses uber OMG damage ***button....
One SMN decides to use a cookie..... Said SMN, and all his resting buddies Die....Repeat next pull. lol
Totally going to afk in Korroloka right now, just copy+pasting where to go for CS for "The Road Forks" for a newbie I'm helping through CoP anyway.
サーバ: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 11680
By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2010-06-26 13:37:08
Leviathan.Aneu said: I was speaking solely about NIN/DRK as I haven't got to tank anything requiring NIN/RDM. Was only saying NIN/DRK isn't affected as much as a previous poster thought. And I don't see why engaging the mob had much to do with it.... NIN/DRK is still pretty much dead, your CE gain just isn't going to be fast enough to outpace DDs on the way up and you stand to struggle with keeping it capped depending on how much damage you're taking.
Engaging matters for DRK/NIN because their non-DD CE tools are similarly crippled.
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 7
By Asura.Dreamercreamer 2010-06-26 14:06:01
After full timing RDM the whole year and 2 months I've been playing, (Yes, I'm still new in terms of the veterans ^^) I have to say while this update wasn't too kind to Red Mages and I do believe they got shafted this update, we still have a few more updates to go, maybe more than that. Once the final update comes into play, I believe all the jobs will be balanced again with their own unique traits.
At least even when people are level 99, they cannot get Composure by subbing it. Composure is a unique Red Mage talent that, I think, is incredibly useful a majority of the time, mostly when I'm being a melee mage. I say give it time and be paitent. One update isn't going to kill a job. Heck, even with how few things we got this update (Which, I believe isn't THAT bad at all. Regen II, Protect V anyone?), Red Mage is still a VERY powerful job if you know how to use it.
I believe Darki here on the forums once said: Anyone can be a Red Mage but are you a GOOD Red Mage?
Even with this update, a good Red Mage can survive and even thrive from it.
 Bahamut.Paulus
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 619
By Bahamut.Paulus 2010-06-26 14:34:53
I was hoping for a new enfeebling spell like plague or maybe a really weak version of break. However I'm very happy with the update and don't think we got shafted. Now if they hadn't given us composure some time back I'd certainly be on this band wagon.
Ramuh.Ilvex
サーバ: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 202
By Ramuh.Ilvex 2010-06-26 14:55:12
Redmage as a whole isn't dead, just one of the more enjoyable aspects of rdm, tanking, it's dead and gone, there is no way to tank in a viable fashion on rdm anymore.
Where, in the grand scheme of things, does RDM sit now(as level 80)?
This is a serious question, and it's directed towards those who actually care about RDM(If you don't care about RDM, you're gonaa tl;dr; And I have words for you at the end, if you can get that far. "tl;dr;" people are kinda a joke anyways.). What do we still have, compared to any other job? I'm having a hard time finding our purpose post-75.
The plain and simple truth is, RDM has had a LOT of potential in it. And it's been tapped, time and again, by good players. RDM has been not only almost completely neglected this update, it was also specifically nerfed... And specifically neglected. Ya know how great that 5/tic refre
RDM was stripped of tanking... The closest thing the job had to what a lot of us consider the job to be by it's history... The traditional melee mage.
The feature that was unique to RDM as a mage in the game, MP endurance, was handed to anything that subs RDM. (Much akin to how Samurai had self-SCing handed away at ease...)
I have to make this statement. SE had a choice here. Things were off kilter. Jobs had their roles overshadowed by other jobs.
What has SE done as a fix? Taken the easy way out. They handed every job in the game that can/will make use of it, the aspects that made those "elite" jobs elite.
Will it make much difference in the grand scheme of balance? I think not. I'll admit it, Samurai was broken. It became an easy way for people to get their rocks off. Big number in the chat log, "oh yeah, I'm the shit!" SAM has been Epeen on crutches.
Good SAMs don't Die. Good RDMs don't either.
For those wh
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