The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide

Since it is offhand, does the WSD+5% on Kunimitsu work? I thought those were Main Hand only

only applies to weapon skill: +%, or it says main hand only i.e dyna weapons, otherwise its no different from WSD youd get on armor augments

What's a good ninja aoeolian edge set? I mainly use it in aby but kinda don't want to mess with my atmas too much... I don't know how much useful would be outside but still, could use ideas. I got a terrible set so no point in pasting it as my ninja gear is still at the early stages but was mostly using 5/5 r0 nyame and random accessories I was using on thf.

Episode 28 is out and is one that's been requested for some time. I'm sure this will stir up lots of debate as these discussions often do... however here are my findings based on Spreadsheet and Parse Results. Have a good day all.

poor metsu...

Couple things I noted while listening:
Mythic AM3 is not a direct TA and DA increase.
You can get more accurate answers with SC (two steps) and putting up AM3 if you are willing to put some more manual effort into it.
If I'm not mistaken, the AM on Kikoku is also incorrect in the spreadsheet.

1. Thanks yea, should have been more specific that it only applies to main hand swing.
2. Care to expand on what you mean? Again to be clear I'm talking about sustained dps over millions of HP, not having AM3 up before engaging or anything, that would of course make it better. I was quite surprised as well that even with having to store that tp every few minutes it didn't help the overall result in the parse.
3. Just spoke with Langly and did some test myself and it appears to be working fine at a glance. How so you mean incorrect?

You can set one set to not have AM3 and WS at 3K for the application, set the other set to your normal stuff with AM3 active. Go to the data tab and under cycle time, use that for your ratio on set that will be applying AM3 and on the other set, set it's ratio to 180.

For a simple two step, you'd do similar by setting both to 50 on ratio. But you'd have to add SC damage stat and add to gear and you'd also want a cell somewhere to put the closing damage. So on Apex Crabs, You'd do 1 * 1.5, with 1 being the closing SC modifier and the 1.5 being the bonus damage they take from thunder and ice, which is what a light and dark will target, for example. Takes a little setting up, but for two steps it's not a bad way to do it. Will give you more accurate results for which SC damage pieces are better as well, which you'll see that Kikoku gets a lot from this particular setup.

Unless he's updated it since then, I'm going by Izanami's post on it since I don't use them myself:

Oh! I thought you meant Parse results better for 2 Step/SC, you mean we could add that to the spreadsheet. Yes that could work and start to allow us to calculate sc damage in the Sheet. An interesting thought, will look into further.

In regards to Kikoku's damage, Langly did mention that may be what you were talking about as we talked about it further. Unsure on if it's still accurate but I can say it looks like even taking that into account it would increase the results for Uncapped Kikoku by 80-100 which wouldn't really change where it ranks and still keeping it with the meet of the pack. It is good to note though! And in a capped buff situation it wouldn't make any difference as we already have capped attack making AM3 useless here so those results should still be accurate.

Thanks!

AM3 and two steps, yes, both are relatively simple. The SC would just need additional stats added and a cell to modify closing SC and mob specific rate. Like a two step distortion would be 0.6 instead of 1.0 before mob.

A somewhat minor note about Nagi - you mentioned using it as an offhand for the Enmity+. Unfortunately, that has been tested and the Enm+40 works only when mainhanded. So, for tanking you would ideally use either Nagi or Fudo Masamune (C) mainhand, with Tsuru as the obvious choice for offhand unless you're one of the exceptionally lucky few with a Yagyu Darkblade from the Mog BANANABonanza (hahaha! love the outtake). Personally, I go Fudo for an all-out tanking situation, and Nagi for a bit more of a 'hybrid' DPS/tank build.

I like to see Nagi getting some attention, and breaking down those not-quite-accurate long held community assumptions about it! I really like Nagi for situations like the solo/lowman/trust cases, especially for the ease of hitting long multi-step SCs (and Macc+40 for those MBs doesn't hurt). I honestly made it as somewhat of a joke and for 4/4 completion's sake, but have been pleasantly surprised by it's performance. Sure helps that it pairs well with some of the good current sets for hybrid/defensive purposes like Malignance (and even Mpaca, to a lesser extent) which is nice for situations where you want the enmity while getting some solid DPS, but want some survival assurance if you take damage from those tanked mobs.

FWIW, I also find Nagi to pair very well with Hitaki offhand - particularly for hybrid WS. I actually prefer that setup to Heishi/Hitaki for hybrids. Heishi/Hitaki is too easy to over-TP and 'waste' some of the TP Bonus benefit, Mythic AM3 applying to WS is a pretty significant boost to your average WS numbers, and the OA2-3x aftermath helps cover for any missed offhand swings to keep the multi-step SCs rolling in consistently. That being said, your testing really illustrates the strong contribution of multi-step SC & magic bursts to overall DPS, which really lets Kunimitsu shine as the offhand (a component of damage where Hitaki does nothing for us; sometimes I feel Hitaki gets a bit overrated by only looking at spreadsheets reflecting the WS damage itself, without accounting for SC/MB).

Can't wait for you to wrap up your Nagi and see the future update video about it, with comparison to the estimated numbers in this video :)

****

Oh, and one last (super touchy) point... I notice you omitted Naegling from this comparison, probably very intentionally. Would be curious to see whether you tested it with the same scenarios and where it fits in relation to the others.

Damn no Enmity from Offhand! I know the ws stats and main stats don't transfer but don't think I've ever seen it apply to a stat such as enmity which I would put in the same stat pool as things like evasion. Bah, will make a note in top comment as yea that's big and one wouldn't ever want to use Nagi in offhand then.

In regards to the Naegling and the Hitaki for that matter. I found them difficult to fit into a fair comparison in this video. The hitaki being very situational and requiring buffs to work in most situations, I was having issues hitting acc cap even on apex bats for instance. The Naegling likewise normally requires buffs to shine and I was doing the parse results specifically without any buffs. It also doesn't skillchain with itself and I can't use the spreadsheet to help with numbers so I felt any comparison to it would be subjective at best. Basically I tried to keep everything as similar as possible for the best comparisons and found that difficult to achieve in any full buffed situation in which either of those would shine.

Yeah it's such a non-obvious one that looks like it should work if offhanded. Not a very obvious "special effect" that only work in mainhand (like Tizona's dmg->MP feature), or other 1h Mythics that clearly affect a specific JA (Terp's Steps augments, Murgleis's enhance convert, etc.)

From looking at the item description, one might assume that the "Augments Mijin Gakure" would be the special thing that only works mainhand... but along with that, no enmity booo.

At least it's consistent with every other RMEA katana in that they all have an "if only this worked in offhand..." thing (aside from aftermath) :P
Kikoku: no atk+60 when offhanded
Kannagi: if only that stat was DEX+70 instead of AGI+70...
Nagi: no Enm+ when offhanded
Heishi: no TP bonus when offhanded

Probably not super useful commentary, but FWIW, I have done a few Bumba v15 fights with Naegling/Hitaki and, without a lot of buffing, I can't hit squat. Once buffed it isn't much of an issue, but I think the usefulness of this setup is going to start to die very quickly as they release new, higher level content, and I'm not sure ML is gonna mitigate it that much.

Logical...
Please don't tell me you used Nyame B R30 for those DPS numbers at 10min20sec in the video..
I tried to check this in sheet and only getting that :Ten DPS with Nyame B R30. I respect that you want this video to be relevant longer, but this is a little over the top, because it's not relevant now XD

TBH, I'm kind of looking forward to new content making the non-ilevel TP Bonus offhands less viable. It just feels like such a cheap gimmicky approach. I get that it can be effective in the right situations (even moreso for jobs other than NIN - dagger and sword for THF DNC BLU are especially notable cases), but it feels like such a quirky exploit that I've never liked it.

Yes I did and how does that not make this relevant now? Even at R25 the guidance is the exact same, all situations just lower by 80-130 DPS without those pieces. About the only thing that change benefits is is moves kannagi to be more on par with the Fudo's in fully buffed situations as it doesn't use any of the Nyame gear but it was only about 100 behind them to begin with so it was already on par with them as anyone should have been concerned.

When you compare that DPS to other jobs DPS (that usually doesnt even use R25 in sheets), its overrated.

Anyway, that's your choice. That being said, referencing your comment from youtube:


Sadly (I too would wish Katana not loosing to Sword on NIN..) it's not even close to accurate with "party buffs" you used and access to the same gear (NyameB R30).

Here you have sheet, when I added Naegling and Savage Blade (I was lazy and just added is as Katana). I also added Crepuscular Knife here with 3%CHR WSC mechanic. Couldn't really add TP drain mechanic, so Crepuscular would be even better in real scenario. Even without it, it's usually better for many weapons/ws, than Gleti's or Ternion R15.

Savage with Naegling/Hitaki - 9897 DPS
That's over 30% more then Heishi :Ten

Now you could think Naegling is only better with Hitaki, so would only be good on low evasion targets and.. that's also not true. Savage with Naegling/Crepuscular is still 8480, so still solidly ahead of Heishi and :Ten.

Only Hybrids and skillchain/bursting can overcome raw power of Naegling.

TP bow + DI Arrow is the best since you dont need to buff for it even lmao

That's a useful enough clarification, but the point of Logical's video is really not to compare NIN DPS to other jobs' DPS. It's to choose best option for NIN, versus other NIN choices.


You're not wrong that it's good... but the ridiculously low drop rate makes Crepuscular hard to recommend without that major caveat. Sadly, unless they adjust drop rates, Crepuscular Knife is only barely more realistic than Yagyu Darkblade for the vast majority of players...


That's kind of the point of NIN DPS though, isn't it? Most of the time, other jobs are just better DPS if you're only spamming (non-hybrid) WS. NIN DPS comes into its own when you are able to SC/MB, or when hybrids are viable.

In a party situation with everyone WSing with little concern for SC, Naegling SB might be better DPS than your katana options... but you'd be even better off swapping that NIN out for a multitude of other jobs. Only reason you're in that party on NIN is because maybe you're filling other roles (DD/tank? In which case, maybe you want a tanking/hybrid weapon anyway over max DPS for WS spam), or if you just feel like using NIN despite knowing it's going to perform worse than many other options.

I do kinda agree that Naegling/SB tends to be better than Heishi/Ten though. In each case, you're probably using those setups when getting strong buffs... and in that case, SB is certainly viable and pulls away more and more as you pile on the buffs.


Yupppp. RNG got lucky there. I'm... actually currently on my RNG with the TP bow/WSD arrow, been doing a lot of melee RNG lately lol. Similarly, COR TP Bonus gun and Savage Blade has no accuracy concern due to the non-ilevel TP Bonus weapon.

Yea I've had to answer this question a bunch today, looks like I wasn't as clear in this response as I was in some others. What I'm basing my opinion on here is simply my actual DPS achieved in Dynamis runs as it shows in my parse. This is because this is the only real place I get enough buffs to make Naegling viable and conduct this test. I did a bunch of comparisons between what I was able to do with Nageling/Hitaki and Heishi/Hitaki in runs and found my dps was always finishing at about the same (1500 if we go through final boss, near 2000 in waves 1 and 2). As I say in some of my other responses though, I don't have a spreadsheet for salvage blade (neat that you somehow modified ours to do so it seems) so all I have to go off of is this real life parse and in that instance it seems about the same so I prefer Heishi.

This also emphasizes my point in the video though where I say I am not going into Capped Parse results as they are simply too hard to reliably test and repeat, especially with 18 people all fighting in an event over mobs and when buffs are going to fluctuate, links will happen, etc. It's also entirely possible that I just wasn't buffed ENOUGH when I was doing my runs with Naegling as we know the more buffs you get the more crazy it becomes.

First of all you said you don't have augmented Nyame. Savage Blade on NIN kinda required augmented Nyame. At least for feet, hands and body.

That being said, Naegling requires less buffs than many setups you showed up in video. Like Nagi/Hitaki or Gokotai/Hitaki. Naegling has pretty big attack bonus, which easily overcome 46 less combat skill than katana and has +40 acc and +15DEX, which will help Hitaki accuracy much more than just +30 accuracy on Nagi for example.

Naegling easily beats any main hand katana setups for non skillchain/bursting DPS. In case when Hitaki is viable offhand (which is a lot of places), Naegling beats katana main hand setups by over 30%. This is sad, but this is how it is. Also if you set "Over-TP Rnds:" to 0, it makes Naegling/Savage setup even more ahead in sheet. 0.5 is pretty high value here. It assumes 50% of the time, you won't be able to WS fast enough to not make extra melee round.


That is whole another discussion. I'm only discussing what was in the video and that :Ten spam isn't even close to Savage spam.

Mythic AM3 still beats Store TP + 10

Yet the SS claims Heishi w/ 0% TA and DA ( since both TP sets are identical ) beats Mythic w/ AM3 up to Round/WS which is very obviously False.

That wouldn’t surprise me whatsoever ( Relic AM not Accurate ) seeing Round/WS nowhere near accurate to fastest Round/WS on SS while using same TP Set but Store TP + 10 on Heishi vs AM3 on Nagi.

SS must be calculating TP Bonus as TP after WS finishes……
Kakka: Ichi doesn’t beat AM3 neither in Round/WS which shouldn’t even need to be said but such is literally the only thing Heishi has for TP return yet SS claims STP+10 beats Mythic AM3 in fastest to 1000 TP? lol

It's somewhat of a related discussion in that, to me, one of the most meaningful parts of Logical's video is precisely that it illustrates very well how SC/MB setups (even with less than 'optimal' WS like Retsu, or closing with Hi-Hi on weapons other than Kannagi) utterly destroy pure WS spam. And that's true for Savage too, even where Savage does beat any katana options.

If I was just gonna spam Savage, I would rather change off NIN entirely and come... WAR RNG COR DRG BRD whatever. I mean, it works if you're on NIN anyway and people are just spamming WS. But for that setup, it's reasonable to ask why you're even bothering bringing NIN.

There is more than just 10 Store TP vs AM3 being calculated in the spreadsheet.

Again completely different question. I can ask you why are you taking NIN to solo, when you can use BLU or RDM. It's pointless discussion. It's not the point why are you bringing NIN somewhere, but what to use when you have it there. I can simply tell you that I want to take NIN to shaol C for example, because I like to play and that's the only reason. In shaol C you will be using hybrids on some mobs and pure physical WS on other (because of resists). In that scenario Naegling will be much stronger for physical damage.

You can take NIN for Mboze for example, because it can debuff it with inhibit TP, attack down, has shadows to tank add or Mboze, when TPing on add, has native DW to cap delay. Generally is very good choice for V20 Mboze. What WS you will use on Mboze? Savage Blade. Mboze resists hybrids and you won't SC and nuke on it too. You need strong physical WS. It won't be Ten, it will be Savage.

Again scenarios is separate things. There will be places to use no Skillchain and no hybrids and no nukes and the question is what you will use then. There was no Naegling in the video, because Logical has limited experience with it wit limited gear too and Naegling was not in sheet. Based on that Logical thought Naegling spam and Ten spam would be similar in DPS. I wanted to show him that's not the case and presented edited sheet with Naegling and Savage in it, so Logical has access to one and could check it himself.

There shouldn’t be anything else a deciding factor when calculating Round/WS when Buffs are identical and so is TP Set as well yet the SS is nowhere near being Accurate. Other than possibly Delay ofc yet that goes both ways. Higher Delay means slightly more TP per hit & lower Delay means slightly faster Att Rounds.

You haven't given any context. For all I know, you don't even have AM3 toggled on for Nagi.

Just check your own SS. You put the same TP Set and same Buffs and SS is giving Wrong results for Round/WS