Sigurd's Descendants: The Art Of Dragon Slaying.
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Sigurd's Descendants: The Art of Dragon Slaying.
Dues ex automata for drgs would make them to potent. Although it would be nice it wouldnt stick with the idea of extremely potent when wyverns out and extremely weak without wyvern if you can just call weaker wyvern. Now if they made the weakness idea but instead with weaker buffs. That might be something that could be plausible.
Asura.Veikur said: » Ragnarok.Martel said: » Hmm. now the question is... does it add in with REMA WSD or is it in its own term? Cause if it is in its term that multiplies with RMEA and augment terms.. that'll be really potent. Excellent testing again. Thank you. Multi Range 19555-20532 Addit Range 18233-19144 Sample: 20147 20450 20492 So the R15 bonus still seems to apply because my sample avg is almost precisely 20% higher than yours... All DA/Missed first hits removed from the sample. I was thinking about it, and the best use for spirit bond might be to use it, use restoring breath for a full cure on the wyvern, and then cancel it.
It's a 1 minute recast, so you could use it again almost as soon as restoring breath is ready again. I still need to test if the wyvern gets full potency from healing breath, but his HP was never low enough to show the full amount cured during my testing. Interesting idea! Sounds like it's time to go spike flail Quetz a bunch to test it.
So I re-worked my spreadsheet to include the Critical Hit Rate bonus from Shining One and for the trait/bonus calculations to be correct on the info Veikur put together.
The results are interesting to say the least and are pending verification. I've scheduled some solo DD WoCs to test as closely as possible. The real-world tests will be slightly skewed because of the -DT that WoC gets as the fight goes on, but should be within a 8% margin of error... DRG/SAM Mob: Warder of Courage Vorseals: Max Length: 3min Cycle all Jumps?: Yes Use Fly High?: No Trishula - Stardiver @ 1,250 w/ TP Bonus 750 Avg DPS: 8,422.19 Ryunohige - Drakesbane @ 1,000 Avg DPS: 8,014.59 Differential: -4.8% from BiS Rhongomiant - Camlann’s Torment @ 1,000 Avg DPS: 7,911.03 Differential: -6% from BiS The Shining One - Impulse Drive @ 1,750 w/ TP Bonus 250 Avg DPS: 7,419.68 Differential: -11.9% from BiS Gungnir - Geirskogul @ 1,000 Avg DPS: 7,399.01 Differential: -12.1% from BiS Interesting Observation: Using Stardiver instead of the augmented weapon skill seemingly results in very little change / sometimes worse DPS. I.E. Spamming Stardiver with Rhongomiant isn’t going to be better than Camlann’s Torment @ R15. @ R0, every weapon performs best while spamming Stardiver after activating any relevant aftermath. Second Interesting Observation: @ R0, Rhongomiant is putting in work and is right on Trishula's ***.
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So if the new WSD actually applies to all hits then Gungnir and Shining One never even had an advantage to begin with. Guess it's my fault for assuming SE would make it the same as gear WSD.
But it's a good thing they threw DRG a bone after all this time. Kinda wish we had the opposite form of Spirit Bond too. Let the wyvern share some of its 40% DT with us but disables breaths while in the stance
Bahamut.Shozokui said: » Trishula - Stardiver @ 1,250 w/ TP Bonus 750 Avg DPS: 8,422.19 Ryunohige - Drakesbane @ 1,000 Avg DPS: 8,014.59 Differential: -4.8% from BiS Do you try any calculations at 1k TP with the TP bonus, and did you factor in Moonshade for Drakesbane? Just asking because doing Drakes at 1k TP, no bonus.. against Trish at 1250 + 750 isn't really a good test. Trish at 1k tp +750 Drakes at 1k tp +250 makes more sense I'm also assuming you are capping attack in these simulations? Asura.Reichleiu said: » Bahamut.Shozokui said: » Trishula - Stardiver @ 1,250 w/ TP Bonus 750 Avg DPS: 8,422.19 Ryunohige - Drakesbane @ 1,000 Avg DPS: 8,014.59 Differential: -4.8% from BiS Do you try any calculations at 1k TP with the TP bonus, and did you factor in Moonshade for Drakesbane? Just asking because doing Drakes at 1k TP, no bonus.. against Trish at 1250 + 750 isn't really a good test. Trish at 1k tp +750 Drakes at 1k tp +250 makes more sense I'm also assuming you are capping attack in these simulations? Yes, you're attack capped. It's WoC. Drakesbane's critical rate scales with TP. Drakesbane @ 1k is identical to Drakesbane @ 1250. You need to break 2k to reach the next crit tier. Waiting for 1750 TP is a DPS loss with Ryunohige. What these tests are testing is each weapon in its optimal conditions. Ryu / Drakesbane is a spam as fast as you can for the highest DPS value you can muster weapon. Trishula is a make sure you hit 2k TP by waiting for 1250 weapon. Bahamut.Shozokui said: » Drakesbane's critical rate scales with TP. Drakesbane @ 1k is identical to Drakesbane @ 1250. You need to break 2k to reach the next crit tier. Waiting for 1750 TP is a DPS loss with Ryunohige. Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat? First time hearing this theory. It should work exactly the same as with damage scaling. If you have +10% at 1000TP and +25% at 2000TP you should have +17.5% (well rounded down to 17% probably) at 1500TP. Bahamut.Shozokui said: » Trishula is a make sure you hit 2k TP by waiting for 1250 weapon. This actually make me believe that you think that you also need 2000TP to "activate" fTP threshold at 2000TP and you dont get partial fTP scaling between 1000 and 2000TP which is totally not true. How on earth you lack this knowledge XD Bahamut.Shozokui said: » So I re-worked my spreadsheet to include the Critical Hit Rate bonus from Shining One and for the trait/bonus calculations to be correct on the info Veikur put together. The results are interesting to say the least and are pending verification. I've scheduled some solo DD WoCs to test as closely as possible. The real-world tests will be slightly skewed because of the -DT that WoC gets as the fight goes on, but should be within a 8% margin of error... DRG/SAM Mob: Warder of Courage Vorseals: Max Length: 3min Cycle all Jumps?: Yes Use Fly High?: No Trishula - Stardiver @ 1,250 w/ TP Bonus 750 Avg DPS: 8,422.19 Ryunohige - Drakesbane @ 1,000 Avg DPS: 8,014.59 Differential: -4.8% from BiS Rhongomiant - Camlann’s Torment @ 1,000 Avg DPS: 7,911.03 Differential: -6% from BiS The Shining One - Impulse Drive @ 1,750 w/ TP Bonus 250 Avg DPS: 7,419.68 Differential: -11.9% from BiS Gungnir - Geirskogul @ 1,000 Avg DPS: 7,399.01 Differential: -12.1% from BiS Interesting Observation: Using Stardiver instead of the augmented weapon skill seemingly results in very little change / sometimes worse DPS. I.E. Spamming Stardiver with Rhongomiant isn’t going to be better than Camlann’s Torment @ R15. @ R0, every weapon performs best while spamming Stardiver after activating any relevant aftermath. Second Interesting Observation: @ R0, Rhongomiant is putting in work and is right on Trishula's ***. Trishula is an amazing zerg weapon hands down. But will others pull ahead during longer events? Such as Dyna where every monster can't be Angoned. Defense down seemed to proc a lot there. I can see Gungnir doing very well for that purpose. I'd definitely use Geirskogul over stardiver unless there is tp overflow. The only bad thing about that is the inevitible missed weaponskills. Multi hit ws, that share ftp across all hits are for the most part really consistent. If you are buffed properly they rock on harder content. Its frustrating missing on Fudo, Cata, Upheavel, etc. Honestly I'd love to have every RMEA lance at R15. Its just fun changing things up sonetimes. The only one Im skeptical of is the Dynamis Lance. I wasnt really impressed with Camlann's Torment in comparison. Stupid question, does Empyrean AM work on jumps? Empyrean AM3 does not proc on Jumps.
Ragnarok.Martel said: » Empyrean AM3 does not proc on Jumps. Kinda lame, I know relic doesnt. SimonSes said: » Bahamut.Shozokui said: » Drakesbane's critical rate scales with TP. Drakesbane @ 1k is identical to Drakesbane @ 1250. You need to break 2k to reach the next crit tier. Waiting for 1750 TP is a DPS loss with Ryunohige. Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat? First time hearing this theory. It should work exactly the same as with damage scaling. If you have +10% at 1000TP and +25% at 2000TP you should have +17.5% (well rounded down to 17% probably) at 1500TP. Bahamut.Shozokui said: » Trishula is a make sure you hit 2k TP by waiting for 1250 weapon. This actually make me believe that you think that you also need 2000TP to "activate" fTP threshold at 2000TP and you dont get partial fTP scaling between 1000 and 2000TP which is totally not true. How on earth you lack this knowledge XD You've misunderstood my statement and unnecessarily thrown some insults. Just keep it civil, we're all trying to enjoy the new updates and talk turkey / numbers. I'm talking about optimal thresholds. These thresholds produce the highest avg DPS. I was trying to explain that Drakesbane @ 1250 vs Drakesbane @ 1k nearly unchanged. You need to hit that 2k tier of crit rate bonus to get into moving the baseline by a substantial margin. As for Stardiver, you're losing a lot of DPS if you're not weaponskilling with at least 2k TP. Which is easily factored as 1250 + 750 bonus.
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I personally am just waiting to see all the new post update drgs.
Bahamut.Shozokui said: » I'm talking about optimal thresholds. These thresholds produce the highest avg DPS. I was trying to explain that Drakesbane @ 1250 vs Drakesbane @ 1k nearly unchanged. You need to hit that 2k tier of crit rate bonus to get into moving the baseline by a substantial margin. Ok sure that make sense, but I dont see how you calculated that. We are talking about moonshade vs something else, so basically 3%-4% crit rate vs other option. Its micro min maxing at earring slot. Also simulation were you do drakes at 1000TP with Ryunohige are probably not realistic anyway when AM3 proc will very frequently throw you well above 1000TP. SimonSes said: » Also simulation were you do drakes at 1000TP with Ryunohige are probably not realistic anyway when AM3 proc will very frequently throw you well above 1000TP. You're correct, there are a lot of scenarios that can prevent you from weaponskilling @ 1k exactly. We're just looking to establish a baseline here. The spreadsheets were never designed to be 100% accurate simulations that match your in-game play. Given that moonshade was in my gear configuration, that would have been taken into account in those numbers but not labeled, so it occurs to me we're splitting hairs over something that doesn't require hair splitting. Dumb that Mythic AM procs on Jumps but Relic/Empyrean don't. Pretty much everything procs on Jumps, from enspells, multihits, additional effects, so it's odd that Relic and Empryean don't.
As someone who has played DRG since day 1, I am happy to see our Job Trait list so beautifully fleshed out now. Back in 2003, my job trait list consisted of:
Attack Bonus Accuracy Bonus Dragon Killer Now we got: Attack Bonus Strafe Dragon Killer Accuracy Bonus Damage Limit+ Smite Conserve TP Critical Defense Bonus (why this and not Crit Att Bonus?????) WS Damage Boost Empathy Not even counting all the extra tiers we get of all these. Also holy crap at Mnk getting replicated TP on all their weapon skills. The least they could have done is remove the attack penalty on drakesbane. Triple attack proc on 300% howling fist is like 34 ftp lollll
If you can, Shozo, could you swap fighters roll to rogues roll and see what that does to Ryu/TSO?
Asura.Veikur said: » If you can, Shozo, could you swap fighters roll to rogues roll and see what that does to Ryu/TSO? Sure, when I get home from work. All numbers were run with sam/chaos since it's a-typical to have more than or other than that. Going with sams/chaos makes sense for testing as its what most setups use. But for minmax it does help to see the differences.
Hug, I'd figured sam/war rolls was the standard for anything that doesnt nerf geomancy potency.
For most people they want Sam/chaos but there is a push I see on WAR forums where they want fighters role simply for WS purposes. But that’s a bit greedy for them and helps little for jobs like SAM and DRK. Was also a push for crit rolls when Shining one came out but again that’s a one weapon help most the time aside this current request.
Ragnarok.Martel said: » So. I suspect there's not been much interest in Spirit Bond compared to the WSD stuff. But I was curious. Went out and tested a bunch. This was all made far more confusing by the fact that battlemod currently suppresses the log notifications about the DRG taking dmg via Spirit Bond. So I had no idea there even was a log message for... most of my testing time. Needs an update. Anyway. Spirit Bond takes the wyvern's post pet DT dmg taken, and splits it 50/50 with the DRG. This happens before Steady wing is applied though, so you can take dmg while your wyvern is getting hit for 0. Further, the player's DT does not affect this dmg taken at all. It can be mitigated with stoneskin, so cureskin can help. Phalanx might work as well, but I haven't tried it. Overall, I'm a bit concerned about the actual usefulness of this. It seems like a pretty good way to die to an aoe that you would have survived normally. Now, funneling some of the dmg to the DRG, who can be cured by mages, where the wyvern can't makes a sort of sense. But taking basically double dmg from AoE's seems really dangerous. If palyer DT worked on the DRG dmg taken then it's be a lot more appealing My favorite example here...  In this example, my wyvern had 76 PDT. 40 base, 25 from collar+2 and 11 from ptero legs+3. 10,000*.24=2400 /2=1200. Now as you can see, then numbers there are slightly off. I took 1210 not 1200. It seems like the wyvern base 40% is actually a tiny bit less that 40%, or some kinda weird rounding is going on. This can also be seen without Spirit Bond up, just from the wyvern taking 2k needles. I have some data from before I realized there was a log message for the drg's spirit bond dmg, so I'll go ahead and post that in case anyone wants to try to figure out the wyvern's exact /256 DT. And I'm not even going to try to make this pretty Code *Note that the dragoon field here is the actual direct dmg from the needles move, not the spirit bond dmg. Since I didn't realize that had it's own log message at first. Needles targets Dragoon Wyvern Bond? Martel PDT WPDT 2000 2 1000 601 No 0 40 4000 2 2000 1203 No 0 40 2000 2 1000 301 yes 0 40 4000 2 2000 602 yes 0 40 2000 2 511 172 yes 50 65 4000 2 1023 344 yes 50 65 2000 2 500 172 yes 60 65 4000 2 1000 344 yes 60 65 I honestly have no idea about how most of the math behind this game works, but how might Scherzo or Earthen Armor affect the utility of this? Also, could this ability possibly open up /mage for very niche situations? you get sam/fighter's because it's easy to cap attack from other sources and any further attack is wasted; at that point more multiattack is your best increment
edit; not to mention if this is even a question, it's because you have the available buffs to even reach this scenario - e.g. maxed bard/geo setup. cor provides unique buffs and not making use of them is a waste Why are you acting like you don't have 3 corsairs rotating parties?
No ones choosing rolls, they just take more cors. or people overestimate their ratio
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Cerberus.Dekar said: » I honestly have no idea about how most of the math behind this game works, but how might Scherzo or Earthen Armor affect the utility of this? Also, could this ability possibly open up /mage for very niche situations? Phalanx also needs to be tested at some point. But that one should be really easy as the dmg the wyvern takes is generally the same as the drg +/-1. So phalanx should be really obvious. DRG/Mage would make for a very hard to kill wyvern... Assuming the DRG didn't just get oneshotted. But I'm honestly hard pressed to think of a situation where this would be useful. But maybe I've just not been on DRG enough recently. Ahh, and I still need to test the HB potency on the wyvern. Should go do that. |
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