Dev Tracker - Discussion

It's stale. Odyssey was great for the first few days, then it became a chore. Another daily to do. That's the issue for me at least.

Hey Shiraj I didn't say that! It was Simon! °-°

You misread the meaning of my posts.


I didnt say THF/open chest mechanics should be removed completely. I only said solo keying shouldn't be the main strategy. Its perfectly fine to have THF opening chests as an extra bonus while party do the kill NM thing.

However if people refuse to use their KI to party up for NM hunting because they prefer to enter on THF solo the something isnt right.

To sum up:

I didnt suggest SE make opening chests available to all jobs. read again. I only use it as a counter argument to prove that the content isnt designed to be soloed when Baniak suggested its supposed to be a solo content.

What is the design goal for Odyssey? Based on dev post it seems like a 30 min content that player can freely choose how they want to do it. If you want to key on THF solo you can. If you want to solo kill NM/fodders with a powered up trusts you can. If you want to duo/trio you can. If you want to go with 6 you can. You can freely choose between keying, killing NM, fetter, or fodder and kill them in any combination.

Ideally, that should be how Odyssey works. In reality solo is pretty much restricted to THF keying because it gets way more reward than most other setup, and creating a very coordinated party of 6/6 is nigh impossible if most people prefer to pay for the scales. THF keying has no issue by itself, the issue is how reward systems are handled.

Then it is available to all jobs, per your backpedaled criteria, because a thf most likely isnt killing a mimic solo.

I don't know why it done that? I actually quoted it from Simon's post I think? Maybe I done from yours, idk? But my bad lol.

I didnt backpedal. If you think I did then I failed at writing or people misread, or both.

Im not sure how did I fail to get my point across repeatedly. Does this edit make my points more clear?



No, I didnt ask opening chests to be available on all jobs. Baniak claimed keying chests is fun(at least that's how I understand) because MGS is different gameplay. And he used "MGS is fun" as a way to defend for Odyssey. I only said keying chests wasn't the main design point so his point is moot. The original intended design is to kill NM/fetter/fodder in a more casual setting with keying/gets mimic access being the bonus for bring a THF.

If odyssey was meant to be a MGS like solo content then all jobs would have the ability to open chests. But dev clearly didnt meant to create a MGS content. Thus "MGS is fun" isnt a valid argument to defend for Odyssey.


Idk how people read my point as "keying should be available to all jobs" instead lol. My point was "Baniak you are wrong".

We need new Delves! Those were awesome and fun

They made Odyssey a hybrid-Nyzul Isle, which I like the concept of it. It's unfinished so it's hard to pass judgement. People need to realize Covid threw a major wrench into their plans and stalled future areas and whatever enhancements they had. Clearly, they had intentions on improving the content, but it had to be delayed.

Concept-wise, there's nothing specifically wrong with Odyssey. It has various (non-objective) objectives for you to accomplish your goal. The only real problem I have is they just made it scales. Scales from boxes. Scales from NMs. Scales from clicking the end trigger. Scales from normal mobs. They could have added some useful rewards outright, which would have made farming it useful. Pretending the rewards aren't important in a new battle content is silly, because players will quickly realize: why am I actually doing this? Look at PvP Ballista, Brenner, etc. Why do you think people don't do it? It's obvious. The only reason some of us are keeping current with Odyssey is because we don't want to be left behind when they release something new. And some are mass faring scales for easy cash. Other than that, nobody is doing Odyssey just because of fun.

If you swap all of the rewards in Domain Invasion Zurim to Odyssey, it would have been an instant success.

Sorry but Odyssey, as it is, is boring and lame. Forcefully made it so you cant AOE mobs, just added at on of trash mobs with nothing unique. For right now, it isn't fun to me.

I think odyssey was supose to last just one month before Sheol B. Unfortunelly corona made it last like 4 months already?

It's only a dream flower that you'll be able to one day aoe mobs in odyssey. what cruel joke on SE's part

*throws Adoulin Tomatoe*

@Afania
1. I told you that solo thf MGS isnt the best way to get scales, especially as "naked" thf. Its just the most accessable, thats why everyone do it. Full static party will get more scales on avg. Not a pug party for sure, because communication would take too long. Every second counts. Many good solo jobs who invest time to pusb chests progress to get maximum discount on chests will also farm more than MGS thf. Odyssey is also time gated, so getting most of your run is much more important than getting max from Ambuscade for example.

2. Making scale r/e would force people to do the content. For you thats good design and for me it isnt. For me much important is gameplay that they created. Making several different places and events when you can farm something and sell it, gives you options. If you like Odyssey, you can farm it and buy Swart crystals. If you like Omen you can do reverse. Forcing everyone to do new content that they might dont like will maybe force people to not waste resources, but that would be meaningless if people would be angry, because they are forced to do new daily stuff (idk why Shiraj complaining that Odyssey is new daily chore when you are not forced to do it). Not everything should be made to be played by everyone. Just making new option for some is also great.

3. Ambuscade difference between grouping and solo isnt VE vs VD. Every competent player who can do VD can usually do Easy or Normal. Especially if you do it from time to time and can throw SPs on it, which is much easier solo, because there is no time wasted to make party at all, so there is no advantage to make more than one ambuscade solo. So imo my estimation was right.

Even if we use your number(although many report THF solos 200+ scale so I think you downplayed THF avg in the argument anyways), the reward effort ratio is still wrong.

THF solo:130-150 according to your number.
PUG party: less than 130-150 according to you.
A fully maxed and coordinated pt:250-350 according to you.

Cant you see what's wrong? That's just not right. If THF solos 130-150 then a PUG 6 man party should be getting 250+ per person and max geared coordinated elite pt should be getting 500 to worth the effort put into organizing it. Or else people would just THF solo anyways. Nobody would want to spend 30+ min and pop on specific day for a static for 250-350 scales per run when they can get half of that playing anytime they want using half the time investment. Those time to setup a coordinated runs, it's much more efficient to run a merc group for gil then buy scales.

Giving more rewards for coordinated group doesn't take away soloers ability to solo 150 scales per run. So I dont understand why people are even against it.


Ok, so giving people more incentive to do a content suddenly makes the gameplay "bad", LOL.

If content is FUN* why wouldn't you want to play it as often as possible? Oh wait maybe it's not fun :p

or.....maybe it's not fun to receive "not interested" reply repeated when I asked people around to team up for group runs. How is it even fun when people flat out refuse to do this content thus pt cant be formed?

The burn out argument wouldn't apply if time gate works like omen. Since you would be doing content 1-2 times per week.

The omen/swart is a poor example. Omen does offer ex/rare drop and people still do them as a group. If omen offers nothing but swart then no one would team up for it too. They would just merc and pay 120m and done with the upgrade.

Overall your argument is based on YOU wanting a different option to farm gil that's different from current options, but not based on wanting to have a content in this game that has longevity with greater community interest. Then you reject any possibility that this flaw can be fixed despite none of your preferences are being taken away. And you repeatedly play the "personal preference" card when these are completely irrelevant to key issue of this content.

If odyssey forces player to, let's say, clear an NM at least once before upgrading the gear and still let players solo farm scales, then you would at least see more people interested in teaming up for NM clear runs, or work on MM upgrades, while none of your ability to solo farm scales are taken away.

But odyssey offers very little incentive. The community interest in doing them is just extremely low from what I've seen. Thanks to scales buyable from AH mostly. And that makes grouping (for people not interesting in solo) extremely difficult.

Even if no reward are ex/rare, that would be fine. Give 6 man party much greater reward so teaming up is actually worth while like ambu VD. Your ability to solo isnt taken away with group reward upscale. Its just that people will be more willing to play with 5 other person in Odyssey and fight/kill things as intended because the reward:effort ratio is just as good as mercing other content or doing ambu VD.

Really all I'm asking is more people wanting and willing to do odyssey together. A big "YES I need odyssey let's go!" response like every other content. Not just another "mehhhh not interested" then you see these people just buy scales and done.



Most jobs arent going to solo normal nearly as fast as VD. Even E needs extremely elite gears. So the efficiency between E/long N solos and VD pt is still far greater than 3 times. Especially when you factor seals and gallantry rewards. Grouping in ambu has much higher reward than solo, certainly higher than 3 times if you factor clear time, seals and gallantry.

Odyssey has a 30 min limit so regardless of party size it's always 30 min a run. Solo thf farming 150 while maxed party farming 500 or close is perfectly reasonable scaling.

If maxed pt of 6/6 can only farm 300 then I can promise you no one would bother to make a fully maximized pt except multi boxers.

When i was spamming Odyssey as THF and WHM mule for tractor and arise my average was 250-350, highest was 420 something and lowest was around 150 but that run was a really bad.

Edit: I assume the devs original plan is for a full party to be doing EVERYTHING, have a thf going through and opening chests while the rest of the party is doing NMs/trash mobs.

Exactly.

So idk why Baniak is fighting to death here defending for current flawed design. Solo THF opening chests certainly shouldn't be the most efficient way to do the content to begin with when dev made it clear that mobs are meant to be killed. And it's not like I'm asking SE to remove this keying feature if baniak enjoys opening chests so much. If people like to open chests on THF that's fine, just let 5 other people join the party without hurting anyones profit.

Also thanks for the *real* number for solo THF+mule. If your numbers from 2 characters are correct then a max 6 man pt needs to farm 800+ scales per person to worth the time/effort.

Sometimes I go in without reraise and go 1/1 mimic and die. I don't give a ***because I can just go back the next day to dbox my already 30 stacks of scales that await the next disappointment.

I dont even bother to go in. At current scale price 1 dyna 3 run from LS can finish a piece from r0 to r15. I would only be interested if I can find some people to lv up MM with me. But I stopped trying to ask in LS since I already know the answer would be "not interested".

As far as CP goes, it's far more efficient to solo CP in apex camps than odyssey too.

That argument has no sense. Tons of people farming Omen only for Swarts and Omen promote solo farming Swarts FAR more than Odyssey. None is gruping for Swarts. Everyone who farm them, farm them solo. Its way "worse" than Odyssey farming. Omen bosses is completely separate part of Omen and is irrelevant to people wanting to farm Swarts. You dont even choose mid boss floor if you farm swarts. You only kill trash.

200 scales on mgs thf is if you open all 21 chests, which is hard even on Malignance THF and you need to also factor in keys price. Not all farming needs to favor grouping. Its your biased logic. They will probably add some hard part of odyssey that will drop rare/ex equip and people will group for it like for Omen bosses.

Ambuscade btw doesnt force you to do it properly too. You can just pay someone to merc it and farm gils elsewhere. So I guess Abuscade is bad event too?




Which is exactly what I wrote lol.


No it isnt. People have different taste and for you same gameplay might be interesting and for someone else totally not. Thats why its a really good design to have different places with different gameplay, all offer sellable currency, so you can farm what you like to farm and buy what you dont like to farm. People forced to do some event with gameplay that they dont like are angry people.

I hope you joking. 300 scales avg on 2 ppl is 150. Solo naked THF and solo geared thf + mule is 2 different things. Also you need to factor in key price. If you truly go solo, you cant take risk, you most likely need to use skeleton keys if you want to have real chance to open all chests and you will still sometimes get mimic in wrong spot and just die.

Also like I said there are other ways to solo on non thf jobs that can yield similar result without risk or mgs gameplay, but you need progress that can be achieved the fastest by grouping.

You either miss the point or just try too hard to win this argument.


But people still group for omen for gear/card/merc....not sure what's your point?

Omen is designed the way exactly dev want it to be. You can choose "path", such as kill Nm, farm swart, farm cards and get reward accordingly. Regardless of paths people needs these things will have incentive to do them. Odyssey isnt functioning the way dev wanted it to be. That's the difference.


Nope. Because the mercs who get paid still do the event. So the issue(lack of community interest) in Odyssey doesn't exist in ambu.

Also mercs that are doing ambu exactly the way SE want them to: kill the NM and get points. Buyers being the leech doesn't change the fact that merc still kills stuff. Ambu is functioning perfectly fine as it is.



You wrote that ambuscade reward effort ratio was bad because grouping farms reward 3 times more efficient than solo. Then you said you feel ambuscade favors grouping too much so it needs to tone down for solo players, then you proceed to argue that grouping should only offers 2x more reward than solo.

I was just demonstrating that ambuscade actually rewards grouping maybe 5-10 times than solo. So your argument was invalid because your number isnt correct to begin with. Grouping offers 3 times more reward than solo is perfectly reasonable for amount of time it takes to recruit people. 3x isnt a number that will put grouping far more favorable like ambuscade.


Not sure how I fail to get my point across repeatly. Personal preference has nothing to do in this argument. I'm not asking SE to change the content so your precious "preference" are taken away.

If you like solo, I'm not asking SE to place a entry restriction or something.

If you like keying chests, I'm not asking SE to remove this feature.

If you prefer scales to remain sellable that's fine too. There are other ways to make people interested in odyssey, such as group reward upscaling, upgrade unlock via NM kill etc. Or even some ex/rare direct drops while scales remain sellable. If you want to sell scales then sell them, others can recruit for pt with ex/rare drops.

So I dont understand why are you fighting here. All I'm asking is that this content should offer more incentive so more people want to do it. I didnt ask for your precious preference to be removed, While you spend 5 pages trying to argue every ideas because for whatever reason you dont want ex/rare items nor like to see more people willing to group up with group reward upscaling. Why do you refuse to see the flaws fixed?

No not really joking. If that guy using 2 characters and a "tractor mule" can avg 300 and spike 420. What kind of number a group would need to pull out if they are gonna convince him to give up his KI for group instead? 800 is a perfectly reasonable number.

Why would he join a 6 man party that can only get 250-350 scales when he can duobox just as much or more?


Still missing the point. The design issue of odyssey isnt THF opening chests, but the lack of community interest in general. THF opening chests was simply mentioned because its contradicting "choose your kill path" design when people prefer to use die/RR strategy, but it's not the main reason why people refuse to do odyssey.

Other jobs soloing 150 scales doesn't change this fact. As long as all rewards from this content remains buyable from AH and grouping up doesn't offer gil efficiency equal to merc/ambu VD this issue will continue to exist. People will continue to skip odyssey and forming a party will remain difficult.

Id rather just main+alt and then I get all the scales. A party would need to be getting at least 1500 scales per run before id even bother joining a party.

And baniak said top end groups getting 350 scales are perfectly fine, lol. No just no.

Which is another issue these days with all the multi-boxers. Sad but I doubt anything can be done about it now.

Ive used both Living and Skeleton keys and got all the way to the top just using one type. Ive also gone 1/1 plenty of times with Living keys and Ive also used a stack of Skeleton keys on 1 chest before. My general strat is to take 4 stacks of Skeleton and 3 stacks of Living just incase I run out of skeletons.

Even then in most other content grouping still offer enough incentive though. I still frequently do ambu with multi boxers, they just get double amount per run but they are still willing to team up.

Same can be said for delve or even omen. Despite omen is doable with multibox people would usually team up if they need different stuff. Unless they merc or farm gil in omen that is.

Odyssey offers a lot of potential especially when you realise that this is the easiest Odyssey is going to be with the next lot being higher in level.

Ill be interested to see what they do with the likes of Montante+1 and Tanmogayi+1 to bring them closer to the ambuscade and REMA options.

I actually like the idea of "pick your NM/trash mob" path, tbh. And I can see NMs offer quite a bit of challenge on higher level.

But if incentive issue isnt fixed then all the potential got wasted.

In past 1.5 months I've seen people recruit for CP pt, lilith and Odin D/VD, tons of omen, ambuscade, master trial merc, dyna D and aeonic runs. I see absolute zero odyssey pt recruitment.

My ls 1 and 2 combined has around 80-90 people total. Everytime when I ask who wants to team up for odyssey I see 0 response, while I tend to get response occassionally for ambu or lilith.

This cant be a "preference" issue. Between 80-90 people at least ONE person should find odyssey fun or worth doing no? Surely someone out there would have different taste that odyssey is "fun" for them. But nope! No one replied.

So baniak's "personal preference" card is completely invalid here. The lack of interest has nothing to do with "preference", more like the lack of unique rewards.

300+ per person.

Top end group can kill 4 fetters and around 3 mimics + open most chests + farm some trash around chests and fetters.

For 6/6 party thats around 24 small boxes and 18 big from personal pool and around 15 more boxes from chests and probably around 50 scales from trash. Thats around 1500 scales total.


Im compering Omen swart farming to Odyssey scale farming. Other part of Omen are completely irrelevant, because if I want Swart i dont care that Omen offers anything else. I assume what you mean is that Omen is not a waste of resources because it also has that part that require grouping on top of that part that strongly encourage to solo farm (btw cards are also usually best to farm with very small numbers or even solo. Its good to group only if you can find someone who can accomplish objectives you cant, which isnt always easy and even then doing all possible objectives vs doing 80% of them solo is very small improvementa in cards number). But Odyssey doesnt have lost resources, because it doesnt yet have that part that is hard and require grouping. It only has that part that encourage farming and its way less buased to solo that Swart farming. If they make that part of Odyasey that require grouping and then solo farming will acompliah more of what you can get by doing that grouping content, then you can make arguments like you do. For now its like they would make only floor 1 and 2 of Omen that only has a farming currency portion and you try to judge it for not having elements from boss floors and its not like you can say that you dont know its only "first floor" designed to be easy content for avg 119 players, because they clearly said that.