Shura For TP

Too bad I know better =O

>NIN
>DD
sage

Marinara Pizza +1 & AF/+1 problem solved

ditch the NIN, stick with MNK and deck it out

Not for nin by a long shot. Less haste and less dual wield reduction, better w/ mix and match.

I haven't got a clue why everyone is being so rude to Didgist. He raised very valid points and did so in a polite and courteous way. He only resorted to insults when everyone else did. Just too bad that there are immature people reading this forum who don't know how to approach an opposing opinion without an insult or smartarse remarks.

You can either DD on NIN or you can tank. You can not do both at once to the top of your ability. By macroing in Haste gear for utsusemi recast you'll be lowering your damage output and accuracy and by swapping in damage output gear you'll be lowering your evasion and raising your utsusemi recast timers. Ninja can certainly DD, but you have to completely disregard tanking duties to do so. Anyone who says otherwise should calmly and politely inform us lesser Ninjas how it's done, because I would like to know.

That said, whilst Ninja can DD, it is not a good one. It will not parse anywhere near well geared, full time DDs, and it will certainly not throw out huge numbers like other jobs. So really, why would you have a Ninja come DD? I would sooner grab a SAM or a DRG. And if you're doing something like farming a coffer key, then this whole debate becomes invalid anyway.

Re. Original Topic, I still would not use Shura for TP. Koga Chainmail is really not that difficult to obtain, it has a good drop rate, and if you're willing to eat negative tanking friendly statistics, why not just use a Haub. Shura really does not compare to other Ninja alternatives.

"Anyone who says otherwise should calmly and politely inform us lesser Ninjas how it's done, because I would like to know."

The thing is, as I've said earlier, unless you're doing nin/drk, where you're not going to be TP'ing at all, and are actually trying to tank using katanas, you WILL not hold hate in some evasion sort set up. This will only work well for solo, duo, and EXTREMELY lowman events (like 3 maybe?) If you toss a DD into the mix, and that DD does not suck, the nin has 0% chance at holding hate. Yes, the nin will get hit less, and have to use less shadows, but it's because of the fact they're not the one being swung at, not because of the evasion.

I'm not referring to a specific situation or context, since the OP didn't provide one. Broadening the point to generally speaking, "To DD, you have to forget tanking responsibilities" is entirely true. You can't DD and tank "to the top of your ability". I added that part in deliberately.

If you're tanking NIN/DRK, you don't rely on your katanas for tanking anyway. So in that situation, you wouldn't be TPing. Why bring it up?

However, you make a good point otherwise; a Ninja will not hold hate from a good DD, regardless of how you gear it. I agree. That's the point I was making. If I'm going to an event, like limbus, where I'm on Ninja and not holding hate in the slightest because of other DDs, so I decided I myself am going to start DDing, why am I on Ninja in the first place? I would sooner come RNG and DD properly rather than come NIN and waste mine and my linkshell's time.

There have been many occasions in limbus where I have seen two or three SAMs and changed from NIN to RNG. I know I'm not going to hold hate from them, so why lower the overall damage output of our group intentionally for no reason?

"If you're tanking NIN/DRK, you don't rely on your katanas for tanking anyway. So in that situation, you wouldn't be TPing. Why bring it up? lol."

I didn't bring it up, Did did by bringing "endgame" into the discussion, which I said endgame isn't relevant for TP'ing because you will be nin/drk and not TP'ing at all.

""To DD, you have to forget tanking responsibilities" is entirely true. You can't DD and tank "to the top of your ability"."

I'm no nin, but I can't for the life of me see how that's true. hen I tank on mnk/nin I don't throw on a bunch of evasion gear, I tank w/ my damage, and my damage requires DD gear. W/ the proper support, you can go full DD, and not worry about running out of shadows.

Once baste, march, elegy, and slow are brought into the mix, evading shouldn't make any bit of difference, as you're not going to be getting hit to begin w/ by any non AoE

Then you were responding with that point to the wrong person, because I never mentioned endgame or NIN/DRK either.



You're just not getting the point. I'm saying Ninjas can either be exceptional tanks, via the use of Evasion gear and the appropriate supports, or they can be good damage dealers, via the use of accuracy and attack gear and the appropriate buffs. The point I have been making is you can not be both at once. This is fact; we could sit here and argue about it all day but that's just how the game mechanics are.

In situations where you can damage deal and not have to worry about negative stats because of debuffs, you don't need the ninja tank in the first place. Any job subbing /NIN can tank with debuffs and buffs pouring at the wazoo. Which is the point I'm making. I would sooner come RNG and DD properly than come NIN and produce less damage output for the sake of an extra shadow.

So you can either be a good tank, or a good DD. Being both at once can't be done; whether it's because it will kill you or because there's just better options, my statement holds true.

That's funny. I can do both just fine.

Turns out Utsusemi recast is low enough to keep up 100% of the time unless you suck at the job or you're constantly getting hit by shadow-wiping TP abilities.

Even then, it's other peoples' fault for giving the mob too much TP.

Again, this is just common knowledge. If your ACC isn't capped, Haubergeon(+1). If your ACC IS capped, Ninja Chainmail(+1). If you're tanking something, Arhat's Gi(+1). If you're low-manning something, Scorpion Harness(+1).

That's it. /endthread. There is no more argument.

For EXP:

Shadows are taken care of by buffs on you, gear haste and debuffs on the mobs (where possible). If you can't keep shadows with Haste and march on you and slow and elegy on the mob then there is something seriously wrong.

So that's your protection sorted and no eva needed, next you need to keep hate.

Elemental wheel isn't enough any more, DDs are starting to stretch their legs, so as a NIN you need to try and keep up, this means accuracy (where needed) attack and STR gear (to go with the haste gear you should already be wearing).

NIN is all about DoT, swinging fast and building hate through damage.

A DD is aiming to hit fast and hard for damage (using haste, acc and att), a NIN is aiming to hit fast and hard for hate (using the same stats)

So I can't see why you have to be a tank or a DD?

Simple put, in an exp party; NIN DD = NIN Tanking.

Outside of an EXP party, sadly NIN isn't a strong tank anymore, and if you are using a NIN it won't be using Katanas, so this argument isn't relevant.

Come back and discuss this with us when you're a little more mature about it.

People are taking the expression too literally. I am referring to NIN's original purpose; to be a tank via the use of evading attacks and keeping shadows up. A Ninja with a DD setup is NEVER going to live on something like Fafnir or Tiamat. However, a Ninja in DD party with that setup can do easily.

NIN are not designed to do both at once. It's only on weak mobs that anyone can tank and DD that they can do it well. That's the essence of the point I'm making. The key part of my wording is "to the best of your ability", people are seemingly skipping that part.

Not necessarily true. A NIN, when properly geared, can do a PLD's job, but even better.

That's not to say it would be easy to attain such gear.
Earth Staff (20%)
Arhat's Gi+1 (9%)
Arhat's Jinpachi+1 (6%)
Darksteel Mittens+1 (2%)
Darksteel Subligar+1 (3%)
Darksteel Leggings+1 (2%)
Jelly Ring (5%)
Defending Ring (10%)

That's a total of -57% damage taken. Combine that with /WAR Defender for -82%, /DRK Stun for total damage mitigation for a few seconds, /BLU Cocoon to practically stop all damage, or /RDM Phalanx to get sort of the same effect.

Granted, some of these items are hard to get and using some of the subs are less practical, though still doable. Spamming Blind/Sleep, even when it gets resisted, still produces a ton of hate, and NIN can pretty easily get 40+ enmity gear to macro in.

I've seen a NIN get hit for 0 damage solo tanking Proto Omega in a 5-man group. Let's see a PLD do that.

Invincible, hur hur.

But seriously, that is nice, but pretty uncommon. Does he have a gear set I could look at on here?

He only has one gear set on here, he doesn't use this site often, but it's a NIN/DRK Idle set, just for all purpose stuff. Here it is, if you're interested.

A few notes:

* PDT caps @ 50%.
* Defender is a boost to defence, and nothing more, so I don't know where this 82% comes from.
* PLD and RDM can wear all of that gear (or has similar gear in the case of Arhats)

Although you are right, in a low man situation a NIN can tank. But they do not combine the survivability and hate ability of PLD (or RDM in some situations).

So as soon as you add a few more DD and hate becomes an issue NIN will start to struggle.

Yeah, I'm not arguing that NIN can keep hate better than any job out there. That's definitely PLD's niche.

Just saying a well-geared NIN can tank with the best of them, even if it is used more for low-man situations or that sort of thing.

You confued me. Less haste then?

I didn't even think of that. How did he get hit for 0? Sure he didn't have some sort of Stoneskin effect up or something?

Full Usukane has less haste and dual wield than a mix and match set, therefore mix and match is better.

He's saying Usukane is not a full-time thing for NIN like it is on MNK. You only get 13% Haste with it and that's 17% (19%) with Swift Belt (V Belt). If you take, say, Turban, NIN AF body, Dusk Gloves, Byakko's Haidate, and Usukane feet, that's the equivalent of 20% Haste, 26% with Velocious Belt.

Well, seeing as how we did it RDM/WHM, BRD/WHM, BLM/WHM, SCH/RDM, NIN/DRK, he couldn't really have gotten Stoneskin from, say, a WHM's Solace JA and Cure. I did, however, give him Phalanx, with capped Enhancing Magic and we all know what that does.

Well, I didn't know your setup. That's why I asked. Phalanx 2 would still not do that with what else he had (according to your prior post).

Oh ya know what i dun... I keep tricking myself into thinking that full usu is 25% haste. I think that way cause my mnk has Black Belt + full usu for 25%.

Ya so you guys are right on. A ninja can get alot more haste then Usu offers. My B

Assuming he had -50% damage and you had capped phalanx II merits with 325 skill you he would have got 29 damage reduction.

To hit for 0, that means after the physical damage reduction, the damage was less that 29 (the amount phalanx will absorb).

So assuming he was right on the edge, and would have been hit for 29 damage if he didn't have phalanx up, we can calculated the damage before buffs and gear.

29 x 2 = 58 damage per swing before gear + phalanx.

Now I have never tanked him, but I think he would hit harder than 58 damage per swing.

Whm has a job ability that gives SS with cures. And i can bet with 100% certainty that is how he/she got a 0.

Edit: Ya my 100% certainty didn't take into account the lack of a whm in the group.