Chango R15 Upheaval Vs Savage

I mean, if you have some sort of magical set that somehow makes savage blade hit like 80k and oneshot stuff, that no one else knows about, I'm sure we'd all love to see it.

Tbh, with Nyame R25 now and ML30, you should oneshot at least on floors 1 and 2 with Savage. Probably not on F3 and F4. I'm not sure, I use Ukon XD

I am not sure you know what the word "only" means. I mean, I gave more than one reason

I guess I have to agree with Saevel

So, for everyone else. no, a fencer SB build will not beat out chango "Most of the time". Naegling is amazing and is deff my vote for best Sheol Gaol weapon for war. You can farm big fragments with all kinds of weapon combos on war. I have done it using decimation for slashing and empyreal arrow for piercing. You can do it with drepanum for slashing and shining for piercing. You can even do it with Nandaka. So to fight a crappy argument with the same crappy arguement. Perhaps your weaponsets are no good on everything besides naegling and thats why you cant get good segments on any other weapon? I have done it with naegling, but I have also done it with all the other weapons. I would argue that Chango is a MUCH better weapon for Ambuscade/Gease Fete/UNM/HTBF/Apex/Sheol C/Dyna D than Naegling. If you consider Sheol Gaol to be the majority of content... not sure we can have a debate lol.

You can actually hit close that hard at 3ktp with max nyame going sub drg with quad procs. You can do that much, but you would have to hold to 3k every time, which is dumb for a number of reasons. It would also be extremely rare. Going to be closer to 62k Savages with ideal gear/buffs at 3k. Mob would be dead by the time you get to 3k if you just spammed it asap. Even with that, it is still better dps to spam upheaval as compared to fencer SB spam. even without SC being counted. Assuming attack is capped for both.
I mean... as you say, you arent one shotting them either lol. Why you wasting so much time tping? if you do 10-15% of the damage with autoattacks you can literally one shot the mobs with the following WS... Stardiver, Impulse drive, decimation, Black Halo, Judgement, Mistral Axe, Calamity, Savage, Spiral and probably a few more. Not really all that impressive lol.

Tbh I want to see 64k Savage blades on floor 4 mobs with less than 3k effective TP (which savage WAR has at 1920tp with Fencer and regular savage set).

On the other hand I don't think Chango will do 2 WS faster, than Naegling will go to 1920TP. Especially that on some mobs, it's risky to stay in glass Tatenashi/AF+3 set after first Upheaval (it's risky in general to use glassy sets at all on some mob's families with massive AOE damage, that can be triggered by Cor or BRD fighting something close to WAR).

Also going with your combined logic, Ukon is faster then both Chango and Naegling. Because it takes less time to get to 2000tp with Ukon, than with Naegling and faster than Chango can WS twice. Ukon going to 2000TP will get mob to like 50% HP or less and Upheaval will finish it. Super safe tp and WS sets too and mob will never tp move.

Couldn't agree with this any more if I tried. Hell, I only built an Ukon based on Simon's speculations a while back (I believe at release of Sakpata Gear about stacking +DAdmg gear with the Empy AM3 aftermath along with all the +PDL naturally on Sakpata. You just flat out stop worrying about TP gain because you realize your double-attacks about 40% of the time are doing as much damage as a 1400TP Upheaval without a 2 second lockout post-WS.

So either you do great damage on a Nostos mob from 100% and the whiteDMG will drop it low enough for a single WS to kill, or you get auto-targeted to someone else's mob they left at 19% after "dat leet Savage Bladez yo" and it primed to slap your group with a TP move.. but you finish it off in a single attack round. Best of everything, and honestly simpler playstyle.

I dont think anyone is saying you can't do 64k. At least I'm saying its possible, but not that much avg.
In sheet with ML30, /drg and R25 Odyssey gear, Im getting up to 60.5k avg with effective TP of 3000.
Using glass gear like af+3 and Tatenashi and flamma head I'm getting total cycle delay 552 and total cycle damage 70.5k
Ukonvasara with 36k Upheaval at 2000TP (2250 effective with monshade) is at total cycle delay 456 and total cycle damage 75.5k (almost 40k white damage) Ukonvasar ais also 4/5 Sakpata with relic legs, so high DT and meva.


don't try to be fancy here. There is no secret fencer build. Most of it is in traits anyway. Gear is only +2 neck and Blurred Shield.


None leaves mob at 19%. It's just there between 1st and 2nd Savage from BRDs and CORs (unless is 1st floor and you got Circle for specific mob's family) If you try to tell me that COR can one shot with Savage too, then I will ask you why would you bother to play WAR? Just take 3xCOR :) CORs with 6 rolls will TP faster and be safer than any DD and will one shot too. New meta? I'm not even joking.


Now you are being silly lol There is at least several mob families that can one shot you from max HP and few of them will do it as AoE. I'm not even gonna start on how annoying it must be to get hit by every debuff coming your way without enough meva. All the sleeps, paralyzes, stuns will slow you down a lot, even if WHM will react in 1-2 sec.

I won't speak for all the other Gaxe talkers right now, but this- this right here is the difference between you and me. I didn't build the Ukon nor back that kind of approach to playing WAR in Odyssey for myself. I did it for my group because (and yes, I keep falling back on this phrase) the speed at which Ukon with AM3 cleans up the sloppy seconds of a DD'ing BRD and COR increases overall group performance more than me winning the parse due to overkill on WAR. I didn't make it to win- I made it because its playstyle is unique and fits well with DD'ing support in an environment with multiple low-HP targets.

...oh, and to tackle the other comments in that post- Feel free to continue to suggest that a playstyle with full R25'ed nyame gear already in existence is the only suitable way to farm segments- the most basic of all tasks in the Odyssey grind. Please, that is extremely helpful to the playerbase, and this is speaking from someone with solid progress as well.

Greataxe builds scale better as players' nyame WSD gear is growing due to the TP phase actually mattering and not putting all the proverbial eggs in the Weaponskill Basket. Even for the non-ideal build WAR, 2stepping with a Gaxe will mean leaving a mob likely above 40% after the 1st WS, reducing the risk for TP usage by the mob. So even as they grow, they have a higher success rate vs that random Fluid Toss wipe (fill in whatever TP move you want for burgeoning groups), vs a smart, but beginner Savage build that will likely leave the mob around 20-25% after 1 WS, and result in a responding TP move before you can kill with a 2nd WS.

I'll let the readers decide for themselves if I'm really running with people who engage a mob, TP on it, then Savage Blade and disengage while it is at 19%, or I simply finished my mob 1st and got auto-targeted to a mob a BRD or COR is working on and their TP+WS ends up being "19% left" when I can swing at it.
yay. more time of not doing things like swinging a weapon and building TP because you're not properly geared. (hey, if you can talk down those not already capped nyame....)
our group pulls 2-5 families at once. You're damn right they're grouped up tight as hell. And they're gonna stay that way to make life easier on the support controlling things for us rather than me sporting an unsafe set. Why is this even a debate on jobs like DRK and WAR any more? What's 2% extra DPS in an absolutely perfect situation vs a totally controlled encounter where you don't even peek at yellow HP, paralyze, or stun?

We're not. You're the one poo-poo'ing other builds as inferior in the DPS department, which is short-sighted and selfish in a multiplayer environment. You're ok making life more difficult for your WHM or spending unneeded gil on meds, spreading out mobs to reduce the BRD's performance because they now have to multi-target sleep (or worse yet, you're actively pulling mobs apart, wasting more time not DD'ing) just because you view swapping to Sakpata as a sacrifice.

For someone so depressed about naegling being OP(which it is) you sure seem eager to prop it up as the best thing there is when it only truly shines when you can't have a SJ as far as ody goes

In regards to how strong naegling SB is? Unless you can cover the loss in TP generation and/or simply can't SC I dont see SB beating out say gaxe in most scenerios if we're strictly talking slashing options, even before you had all this additional sc dmg+ gear from nyame it would lose out if you could sc, so that just widens the gap further.

Optimal TP set has nothing to do with Fencer. Fencer is TP bonus and crit rate. Unless you want to tell me you have special crit rate TP set based on Fencer? No? Then it's not FENCER build, it's just TP set for single wielding.

Also sounds pretty self explanatory that I used stp/TA gear as TP set for Naegling. In more details AF+3 legs and feet with Tate hands and body.

Not everyone buys all the crap needed to make a RMEA weapon. I spent about 30mil total vs farming sources and Ambuscade, and I'm far from unique in that aspect. Suggesting to someone to tackle a long process they can do with just time and not gil is not elitist. If your constant prattling about Fencer SB builds being able to 1shot floor 4 mobs isn't elitist, please do show a way that happens without r25 nyame, +8 rolls from your COR and CC/SV 5 song BRD. Citing a strat that requires those parameters is much more elitist.

If anything, those of us suggesting Gaxe in this discussion (and my beliefs on Gaxe are not limited to just Ukon but apply to Chango as well, you just gear differently) are saying that because that weapon isn't as dependent on WSD gear, the lack of perfect WSD sets isn't required to have success, so they allow growth for the player rather than only functioning as intended once BiS(or near-BiS).
What is your definition of performance, though? Personal or party-dynamic? Parse results? Spreadsheet formulae? And don't try to diminish my statement from earlier, please. I only stated I opt for this playstyle for the exact reasons you opt for yours- to maximize segment returns. This has for my group.

And the truly amusing thing for both of us is that a good WAR is probably only spending about 50% of a Segment run using slashing damage, anyways^^ Bringing good Polearm and Blunt builds rather than just relying on 1 type is really why a WAR is there in the first place.

You got your way that is giving returns, others including myself have other ways. And if we're all getting solid returns, our passion in this argument only proves "build what you can, build it well, and its going to work". If it has appeared in my posts that I'm coming from an all or nothing position, that's far from my belief. I simply wanted to argue for another side of things to keep creativity and variation happening now and then, especially when the costs of such variance done smartly are really so small.

Post sets of Upheaval(PDL), Savage Blade(PDL), TP for Fencer build, and TP for Ukon/Chango build. With all of this back and forth you guys are doing about these 3 weapons, someone is bound to want to know what the BIS for each looks like, so they can try it out for themselves instead of taking people's word for it.

The only time I've ever seen Naegling really shine on ML mobs (as WAR) is when you are under buffed and struggling with accuracy. Otherwise multi-step just obliterates everything.

Like this isn't even really a debate, TP gain speed defines DPS in this game, highlighted by the two strongest DPS buffs being Haste (Marches) and Store TP. Two handed /SAM and Dual Wield /NIN builds have much higher TP gain speed allowing them to fire off the WS's faster then Fencer builds. That's without getting to the 30 extra Store TP from Chango + /SAM.

The one place (for WAR) that Naegling shines is inside Gaol where /SAM and /NIN simple aren't an option.

If someone really wants to see the difference, build the TP Bonus offhand axe and do a /NIN build with Naegling.

I have seen this claim several times, and I want someone to show proof of this.

C1 Nostos have 60k HP, where C1 Agon Beastmen have ~80k-90k health (according to JP sources). I am not sure how much health Beastmen above C2 have, but its certainly higher than C1. C2 Nostos have somewhere around 63k-65k HP. So one shotting C1 and C2 monsters is believable, because I have done this. Going higher is where I am skeptical. C3-C4 has to have around 70k+ HP.

I post all of this to say: which mobs are you one shotting on C3-C4? I keep hearing of people who do this, but are people seriously claiming to deal 70k+ SBs on C4 to every monster group? Mathematically, it doesn't even seem possible. Now if what you mean is "it deals about 85-90% health and basically dies to 1 WS", then that's disingenuous and misleading.

Might be mistaken but didnt gears have piercing weakness? If all you're looking at is WS dmg could view ID as an option too then

I haven't been in Sheol C (besides random PUG to not lose a tag) in close to 4-5 months, so I haven't tried out R25 Nyame in Sheol C yet. I was also not criticizing, but genuinely asking. I have often seen the claim that "Naegling one shots everything" but I just have not seen that personally. But my opinion is based on several months ago so I could be wrong.

I do recall popping Mighty Strikes Savage on C4 with R20 Nyame back then, and I was able to 74k+ mobs, but they weren't all one shots. None of the beastmen on C3+ can be one shot, I can verify that much. I think the HP of certain groups may differ slightly, and some are very squishy (imps in particular). But unless you can guarantee you have SV Minuets for C4, I have a hard time believing you can one shot everything up there.