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Newer players need to step up their game
By billnes 2024-11-21 08:22:08
SE needs to step up and start helping their communities out by listening to them and making necessary QOL changes instead of expecting things to just smoove over. Im pretty sure if they did any census they would see the sortie event was a failure and they do need to adjust the content and current goalposts. But they don't care and want the game to fail.
No... I don't agree with that at all... SE has made it clear that FFXI is down to six active developers and QA is in a different department...
IIRC, in 2020, the (in)famous "atom0s" speculated that worldwide, SE has six or less functional PS2 Dev Kits. In November of 2024, I very seriously doubt that any more than 3 ~ 5 people anywhere within SE know how to write the PS2's spaghetti code. I think it's also important to note: If SE is using PS2 Dev Kits with the built-in performance analyzer, you also need to maintain Windows 95 machines that show the programmers and software engineers the data that's coming off of the PA.
Don't feel compelled to tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about... I may not have the same skills as our "beloved" atom0s, but I can read English. I did download and read the SONY-authored Performance Analyzer documentation. For those that don't know: The PA docs truly are a fascinating read... I don't remember the URL of where I DL'ed it. However It's gotta' be out there somewhere. If I can find the downloaded file, I'll post again and I'll email the file to anybody that wants to read it.
I can't remember if atom0s speculated on this or not... However, IIRC, many in the game's Community of Players believe that FFXI has ZERO fulltime GMs... IIRC, the consensus within the community is that FFXI's GMs are in actuality, FF14 GMs that only check-in with FFXI on an as needed basis... If I'm remembering what I read in the 2006 leaked GM manual, the FFXI GM system has a log creation component called "Caitbert". I'm guessing that in 2024/25: Once a week, a few FF14 GMs go into 11's Caitbert and glance over it for things that should not be. If something catches their eye, they'll forward it STF. If the STF is busy with 14, or just doesn't care, they'll just let it slide... It's an established fact that GearSwap transmits packets up to the data center... SE has been letting that slide for years...
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By Dodik 2024-11-21 08:43:48
maintain Windows 95 machines
There is a very very high probability this is now virtualized, as is the software the dev kits run on.
By axetofall 2024-11-21 09:16:24
remaining XI community is so unhinged hahaha
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By billnes 2024-11-21 09:57:56
maintain Windows 95 machines
There is a very very high probability this is now virtualized, as is the software the dev kits run on.
I'm not 100% sure about that. Atom0s would know better. It's my understanding that the PS2 Dev Kits use two very heavily customized motherboards. One motherboard is where the code is written and the other board simulates a consumer-grade PS2.
It is also my understanding is that there is no GUI on either side. Everything should be text based. It's my understanding that both MOBO's use archaic software. The Linux Kernel is v2.0.6 and the OS is Red Hat Linux 5.2 (Apollo.) I suspect that the code writing MOBO could be Intel-based. However, I'm guessing that since the PS2's CPU is RISC-based, the CPU on the simulator's MOMO is also RISC-based.
I honestly couldn't tell you if that mashup, plus the Windows software that reads the data from the Performance Analyzer can be virtualized... That's the reason why I'm suggesting you try to PM atom0s, or search through his old postings... He may have covered this subject matter sometime in the past.
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By axetofall 2024-11-21 10:27:47
maintain Windows 95 machines
There is a very very high probability this is now virtualized, as is the software the dev kits run on.
I always thought this as the idea of FFXI's survival hinging on some modded PS2s sounds insane and hilarious, but I guess it also wouldn't surprise me
By Dodik 2024-11-21 10:33:17
You're probably not aware of this, but large corporation with support contracts with another large corporation are not just going to accept "Lol the hardware is old bro, tough luck" as an excuse.
These companies routinely give out software for extended support for use in virtualised environments with an NDA forbidding anyone from sharing or even discussing it.
No one here, no not him either, knows the details of SE's support contract with Sony. I can tell you with 100% certainty it does not include a go f**k yourself clause for the hardware being old.
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 876
By Asura.Iamaman 2024-11-21 10:35:24
In November of 2024, I very seriously doubt that any more than 3 ~ 5 people anywhere within SE know how to write the PS2's spaghetti code.
I doubt every change made needs access to a PS2 devkit, that seems like something that would be required for asset changes (assuming assets are parsed by Sony provided libraries), but changes to the server code or core client code may not require those unless it's related to asset parsing. In the context of recent content, adding zones, mobs, entry points, etc seem like things that would require devkits to do. I'll let someone else clarify if I'm wrong.
Regardless, they've shown some ability to develop new features and add code in the past few years. They've added both Sortie and Odyssey, both have undergone functional changes and Sortie in itself has a lot of triggers/events/content inside it that shows they have some ability to make these sorts of changes. Both of those required new logic/functionality beyond minor, basic changes. Despite how much I dislike Sortie in particular, it's easy to see how much development effort would go into implementing it.
Most of the reasonable QoL improvements being asked for here much smaller in scope compared to adding the above content and, based on my understanding, would not require a devkit. Changing goals/objectives is unlikely to require a devkit. It seems unlikely to me (but I could be mistaken) that non-asset related changes for the server and core client code (aside from any asset related parsing or data) would not require a devkit. Even if it did, they've shown some ability to make much larger sweeping changes, it seems like minor QoL changes would be much more feasible, devkits or not.
No one here, no not him either, knows the details of SE's support contract with Sony. I can tell you with 100% certainty it does not include a go f**k yourself clause for the hardware being old.
Somewhat contradicting myself above, I doubt anyone at Sony still has access to these or that they are still produced, contract or not. Most PS2 related code/hardware has long since moved on and it was 22+ years ago, if there is anyone there that still remembers anything about it, it's probably one or maybe two people at best. I've had to help with similar tasks before in similar sized companies and that knowledge dies off as people retire, leave, move on, etc, I also doubt they have a living contract with Sony beyond non-disclosure.
By Dodik 2024-11-21 10:50:10
No, I doubt they are produced. I also doubt there is anything prohibiting the software for those dev kits to run virtualised, other than Sony not allowing it.
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サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 876
By Asura.Iamaman 2024-11-21 11:02:18
No, I doubt they are produced. I also doubt there is anything prohibiting the software for those dev kits to run virtualised, other than Sony not allowing it.
Contractually, probably not, technically...maybe.
If they extended the instruction set, which is likely, those extensions would have to be implemented in the emulator and any other hardware peculiarities would have to be implemented also. I doubt SE has the in-house reverse engineering expertise to do this. I only play with commodity hardware for the most part, but I have worked with enough "niche" embedded devices to know that they tend to have extended instruction sets or coprocessors that have to be emulated, those are probably pretty well understood for the PS2 but to what extent they are used in the devkits, idk how well that would be known. Their agreement with Sony that continues to live may also have clauses about not reverse engineering, something that's likely to live on even now, but again, maybe not.
Technically it's probably possible and I know Fujito expressed an interest several years ago in moving away from them, but it seems like it'd be really difficult or impossible for them to tackle it themselves with the technical hurdles and limited budget. It's more likely they'll just avoid making changes that require devkits, but I am not entirely convinced that's a huge category of changes
 Asura.Eiryl
By Asura.Eiryl 2024-11-21 11:34:45
PS2 devkit exists on github for anyone to just emulate openly
By Dodik 2024-11-21 11:44:05
Yes, all of that can and is routinely emulated.
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 876
By Asura.Iamaman 2024-11-21 11:46:41
PS2 devkit exists on github for anyone to just emulate openly
That's news to me, what's their dependence on having actual hardware in that case?
Yes, all of that can and is routinely emulated.
Absolutely, but it takes someone implementing it and doing the work, it's not a matter of just loading it up and it being virtualized without stuff breaking. If the work is already done (see above), then yea, maybe it's a non-issue. If they need to implement it themselves then I doubt they have the in-house expertise or funding to do so.
 Shiva.Thorny
サーバ: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2852
By Shiva.Thorny 2024-11-21 12:22:58
what's their dependence on having actual hardware in that case? I don't think you can assume the emulators are perfect, and JP pride/legal issues/company policy might prevent them using emulators instead of real hardware. Given that plain PS2 emulators still have niche issues to work out, it seems questionable to trust a devkit emulator to correctly handle perhaps the most complicated game ever made on the hardware.
Of course, if they actually cared, they would just make new tooling that can convert modern formats to what XI uses. Third party devs managed to do it.
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Asura.Eiryl
By Asura.Eiryl 2024-11-21 12:24:16
Their "dependence" is on bullshitting you into thinking they can't when they simply don't want to.
And you all just go "ok"
(and not wanting to is totally fine, it's a business, it's a financial decision, and that's very reasonable, just don't *** lie about it)
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 876
By Asura.Iamaman 2024-11-21 12:40:42
Given that plain PS2 emulators still have niche issues to work out, it seems questionable to trust a devkit emulator to correctly handle perhaps the most complicated game ever made on the hardware.
That makes sense and is kinda what I figured. I did look on their github to see what types of features were or weren't supported, what was missing, what nuances weren't replicated, etc and didn't see it plainly laid out, but it makes sense.
just don't *** lie about it
A lot of developers don't really understand or comprehend what's possible via reverse engineering, they usually assume they can only work within the confines of what they are given. For managed/interpreted languages, you show them how simple it is to decompile the binary back to source and it blows their mind, even moreso when you have native code and someone that knows how to interpret disassembly/RE it show them how their code works.
I doubt it's lying as much as it is just not understanding or being aware.
And like I said earlier, a lot of license agreements have clauses prohibiting reverse engineering. I've worked on contracts where we were hired to do just that and they had a clause in our contract saying we couldn't reverse engineer anything, it's fairly standard for a lot of contracts at least in modern times (I don't know about the late 90s). Whether it's enforceable in this context or not is another discussion but it seems possible that they take it at face value or as Thorny said, have company policies against it (I've run into this also).
By Dodik 2024-11-21 13:25:25
Sony does not need to emulate nor reverse engineer anything.
They own the IP and can do anything they want with it, including licensing it for use in virtualised environments without physical hardware.
Asura.Eiryl
By Asura.Eiryl 2024-11-21 13:30:15
Square would
But there's also nothing stopping sony from building a new unit or refurbishing units. There's a thousand of them in random warehouses with perfectly fine chips that could be used to refurb
Square doesn't care, it's really not on sony whatsoever. The cost of a couple ps2 retrofits/refurbs/etc is nonexistant.
Im not a japanese lawyer (and neither are any of you) if some contract is in place then sony has to honor it by keeping kits active or building them replacements. No matter how you slice it, lack of devkits is ***.
Shiva.Thorny
サーバ: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2852
By Shiva.Thorny 2024-11-21 13:40:20
They own the IP and can do anything they want with it, including licensing it for use in virtualised environments without physical hardware. Square enix does not have ownership of Sony. Sony does not own FFXI. There is probably some licensing agreement, as you said we cannot know for sure what is in it. But, you cannot guarantee that there is indefinite support included. Remember that SE ended PS2 support for the game itself over 8 and a half years ago.
That's before you get into the reality that the ps2's hardware design is not easy to emulate. Licensing it for use in a virtualized environment and providing official specs will not be sufficient to allow for a perfect emulator on modern hardware. New consoles use very similar hardware and architecture to computers, so they are comparatively easy to emulate. Older consoles have ASICs and unique design mechanisms created to squeeze out extra performance, which can be difficult to perfectly recreate within the boundaries of a modern system.
No matter how you slice it, lack of devkits is ***. Replacing a dev kit is not guaranteed to be an option, and neither is virtualizing it. Denying this is out of touch with the reality of how licensing agreements work and how difficult it can be to get a unique privilege with something like that.
It is still an excuse, because they are almost certainly not using the dev kits to build the actual client. They likely have asset editing tools that run on the dev kit, and it would probably be cheaper long term to use modern asset editing tools and commission a tool to convert them to FFXI's format. It would still cost money though, so as you say, it's a financial decision.
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By CrAZYVIC 2024-11-21 15:38:20
Alright, here’s the deal I think it’s still possible to bring in content like Dynamis-Divergence. Stuff like Limbus, Einherjar, Nyzul, Salvage, maybe even those old Dynamis zones that never made the cut. And why not throw in a new battlefield every year while you’re at it? Just gotta hope they actually pay attention to that survey.
Now, Square Enix and Sony? Those two get along just fine. Square’s been holding onto timed exclusives like FF16 and FF7 Remake-2. So I don’t see why Sony couldn’t hand over the FFXI-PS2 licenses and the source code.
But let’s be real here it’s probably too late to move PS2 code to PC. That train’s left the station, especially if they wanted to do it on the cheap.
Maybe, just maybe, there’s some hope down the line. Give it six years or so, let AI keep evolving. Something advanced, like a ChatGPT-8 or whatever’s next, might be able to streamline it all convert that old PS2 code into DX12 or something.
Right now, though, what this game really needs without throwing a bunch of extra resources at it is some smart tweaks:
Unlock Odyssey for 18 players and shake it up:
6-player version: Bosses start at V10.
12-player version: Crank it to V20.
18-player version: Full-on V30 fights.
Sortie? Same deal. Open it up for 18 players, but cut the run time down from 60 minutes to 30. Balance it out based on group size.
Then there’s Ambuscade Volume 1. Let 18 players in but scale it for folks with M.LV10 and V10 gear. Keep it tough, not some walk in the park.
And finally... nerf that damn Naegling already. It’s been wreckin’ the game for five years. Time to push jobs back to their real weapons—none of this one-trick pony nonsense.
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By Volkanovski 2024-11-21 19:24:32
New players need to not be starting a 22 year old mmo
That's all they really need to know
If youre starting a two decade old live service game, you're already a lost cause, brainless. It doesn't need to go any deeper than that.
Every part of the new player experience is miserable.
I know this comment was a couple months ago but really man? I started in July 2023. Cleared all basic content (i.e. expansions, missions etc... within 6 weeks). The real grind started when I full timed Ambu gear "because it was all I had at that moment" but then I did the RoE 119 quest that gave x12 chapters of each slot. I took those and 119'd my various relic/empy gears. +2 and +3 was a different story but hey, I was in the ballgame. From there, I grinded the drops I needed to +2 those relic/empy's. What was the return? ... better numbers for me, less battle time for my group.
We all start somewhere. This game isn't and NEVER has been about YOU. I might be new in today's XI seeing as how many Vets have played since launch but don't get it twisted, you should be thanking the FFXI community that new players want to give it a shot. It's a part of what's keeping this game you so love here. After 18 months, I can proudly say my War hits for 40-50k SB's and in some instances depending on Mob and buffs, 90k+. I haven't even mentioned my BLU lol. Us "New players" LOVE this game.
If you had the displeasure of partying with not so inclined players ask yourself this ... what are YOU doing to help them understand the game better? I consider myself lucky to never having to deal with someone like you. My LS is amazing, thoughtful and helpful to EVERYONE that walks through our doors. Had I read your post before downloading the game, I might've not given it a try considering you are a veteran. That is the damage you are doing to New Players of a game you claim to love.
Asura.Eiryl
By Asura.Eiryl 2024-11-21 19:26:22
I believe you are ill informed.
If you want (did) to start a project on it's deathbed and waste your time on it, I'm happy you want to do that. I'm not the arbiter of your regrets when you figure out you should've done something better with that time.
It is a mistake to invest any time in a end of life project, but it is your mistake to make.
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By Volkanovski 2024-11-21 19:29:51
Yeah, I'm sure you are going to tell us how ill informed I am lol
Carbuncle.Maletaru
サーバ: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2685
By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2024-11-21 19:35:45
Eiryl doesn't love the game, that's the mistake you made.
Otherwise thanks for sharing your story and congrats on your progress.
By Volkanovski 2024-11-21 19:37:25
I believe you are ill informed.
If you want (did) to start a project on it's deathbed and waste your time on it, I'm happy you want to do that. I'm not the arbiter of your regrets when you figure out you should've done something better with that time.
You do realize this game is only for entertainment right? Unless you sit in a wheelchair collecting SSD every month and literally have no life outside of gaming, who are you to tell someone what they should do with their time? If you are in a situation as I stated above, that would suck but tell people that playing an old MMO on their downtime is a waste of time. I mean, who exactly are you? lol You aren't anybody man. Just another player like the rest of us.
By Volkanovski 2024-11-21 19:40:26
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »Eiryl doesn't love the game, that's the mistake you made.
Otherwise thanks for sharing your story and congrats on your progress.
Clearly this dude has issues. I feel sorry for him.
To ALL new players, if you found a way to make it to this thread, GAME ON. Don't listen to that BS.
By Kaffy 2024-11-21 20:41:25
Need more like this, but it is usually the unhappy ones that are the most vocal. Glad you survived the initial grind, its not an easy thing to do as a new or returning player.
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By buttplug 2024-11-23 17:06:37
It's not just new players though
Every Odyssey C run have to tell others open chests if you can
Don't run by them
The DD always respond with I have to keep my hands on my *** at all times bro that's the healers job
Nope the healers job is to keep you from being face down
*** up
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By LightningHelix 2024-11-23 17:28:35
IIRC, the consensus within the community is that FFXI's GMs are in actuality, FF14 GMs that only check-in with FFXI on an as needed basis... I mean we literally have seen the job postings for this position, it exists right now:
https://apply.workable.com/square-enix/j/47C2DB6ACB/
Quote: A new and exciting opportunity has arisen at Square Enix UK, with the current expansion we are currently looking for a Game Master fluent in German language to provide superior in-game quality of service and support to our online players of FINAL FANTASY XI & XIV, using our in-house communication tools. If you speak German fluently, please apply as we are assessing all candidates for the role, with and without experience of playing FFXIV. This vacancy is available on a 12 months fixed term contract. (they want someone English+German fluent, for a 12 month contract, in office, physically located in London, probably for a pittance of money, can't imagine why they haven't found anyone)
so yes, GMs are XIV first XI later.
By billnes 2024-11-26 05:44:55
No, I doubt they are produced. I also doubt there is anything prohibiting the software for those dev kits to run virtualised, other than Sony not allowing it.
I doubt SE has the in-house reverse engineering expertise to do this.
Iamaman, I'll welcome you to disagree with me on this if you'd want to: Even if people within SE had the skills needed to reverse engineer the entire PS2 Dev Kit system & virtualize it, they still would not do it. Money?? Not wanting to pay employees to do it...? Yes... However, there's another factor... Japanese culture would prohibit it.
To the best of my knowledge "saving face" and "loosing face" is something that exists in Japanese culture. IDK all the details, but I do know that it's something that exists... It's a thing.
If SE decided to try to disassemble and then recreate the PS2 Dev Kit in a virtualized environment, the would "loose face" with SONY. The way SE keeps the status quo with SONY and preserves face is by not touching any of SONY's IP.
Look I'm not trying to gatekeep here, everyone wants the community in this game to be the best it can be and that means helping beginners evolve into veterans.
However, I saw this thread on Reddit today about WoW and it really reminded me of my experience in FFXI lately: https://old.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/1fl6az3/wow_has_a_problem_where_everyone_wants_to_do_hard/
"WoW has a problem where everyone wants to do hard content but only 5% of those people want to put in the absolute bare minimum amount of effort required to do that content"
I feel like this accurately describes modern FFXI as well. The last few linkshells I've gotten into that actually did events, it was roughly 3 or 4 veteran players who knew what they were doing and had a solid spread of jobs with adequate gear and knew how to play them, then 10-15 somewhat newer players who have absolutely nothing except one or two DD jobs which they claim are "pretty well geared" but are actually rocking a Kaja weapon and fulltiming Ambuscade armor. These players go quiet the moment folks mention that we need a COR, BRD, GEO, WHM, etc in order to do the content they're wanting to do. Same when directly encouraged to level a job that can contribute at events without top-end gear, they just kind of go quiet and weeks/months later they're still doing the same thing: asking to come on their crappy NIN because they "need to get better gear." (Hint: DD jobs need better gear than anyone else in the group. Literally ANY other job will be easier to contribute with than the one job newbies all want to play which is DD.) These people are trying to dive into Odyssey/Sortie/etc (the hardest content in the game) to get the more advanced rewards while still being unable to contribute in intermediate content that they regularly get carried through. It's completely out of order!
New players: We want to help you. We really do. But carrying dead weight gets old pretty fast. This game has a progression, it doesn't "start" once you reach the peak of performance. It basically starts when you hit Lv99. If you're 99, you are IN the prime of the game. Be patient and build yourself up brick by brick. Enjoy the journey.
Research the content. Research what builds people are doing the content with. Level and gear more than one role so that a melee job isn't the only thing you have to offer. Research how those jobs are played. ASK QUESTIONS, don't just quietly join and assume all you have to do is wack stuff with your weapon. Ask about strategy if you don't know. Ask what your job needs in order to be "good enough" for that content if you don't know.
Yes, you'll get some elitist pricks who just don't want to deal with you. Don't let that discourage you, you still did the right thing by outing yourself as a beginner. FFXI also has a fantastic base of extremely helpful players who will spend hours helping you and ask nothing in return, but we're going to lose interest pretty fast if you aren't proactive about trying to contribute. So don't take advantage of helpful players; try to find ways to make it easier for them to help you, most importantly by having a job that can support them in some way while you're with them.
FFXI players, for the most part, love helping people and are some of the most awesome and helpful MMO players around, but if you make helping you as difficult as possible then you're going to have a harder time finding willing help.
Thanks and God bless
-Perg
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