Kenkonken Parse

funny joke bro

I think drg can beat a Kkk pup only with Ryu. Given equal ground.

Ryu yeah, without that though a DRG would be lucky to beat a non-mythic 1h like blu or dnc

Don't underestimate the power of Camlan's Torment.

Additional effect: makes you wish you used Double Thrust.

Not even close to beeing worthy a dd slot.

On ADL Failing pummel never broke 2k on a 99kkk

That sounds just wrong...were you not buffed or something?

Nope all fights where on equal grounds or either all had bufs or we had noone.

A kkk pup is not even standing in the shadow of lets say a rag99 drk iff we talking bout zerg situations.

Or atleast thats the experience i have with 99 mythic pups..

I can't imagine it doing so low on ADL with Chaos roll, zerk, rcb and songs. I used to do 4-4.5k Last Stands as cor with gear that was still work in progress and no minuets...

lol its still the truth we ussually have 4 cors bufs anyway chaos/fighters then from 2nd cor miser/tact and iff we have a brd on location he bufs us aswel.

When iam back from doing my groceries and gym ill go tru my parse data and see iff i can post a parse with that 99 mythic pup, esp for j00 Sehachan ^^

Should use Rogue instead of Miser btw. Save tp is worthless if not stacked.

Good point ill talk with ls ldr bout it, just trowing out there what we ussually have on bufs. In regard of it beeing a fair parse.

2k is excessively low for a 99 KKK, particularly on ADL

I concur. I'm generally willing to attribute a lot of damage loss to user error, but ADL isn't evasive and doesn't have much defense. I don't see how averaging <2k with Stringing Pummel is possible against him even in TP gear with those buffs, let alone "not breaking it." Unless this is some kind of joke where the PUP didn't actually use Stringing Pummel.

I love how everyone is such an expert when it comes to pup in these events but none of the nae Sayers have even played pup in the event. People ask for parses and if a Drk or war come out on top it's ok but if the pup comes out on top or near, then the other players were bad. This double standard BS is sad to read and especially coming from people that don't really try to do stuff on pup. And please don't come back with "I've played pup for years so I know what I'm talking about". I have played for years also and now pup is my main and I ONLY take pup to whatever I do. I constantly have people tell me they didn't know pup could do that or this. It is a job if not geared properly, it will suck. And when I say gear I also mean attachments. For some reason ALOT of pups don't have all the attachments. There is a lot of misinformation and blind ignorance towards pup that comes from players that don't even play the job regularly.

I understand the frustration towards this but the fact of the matter is, the math does not favor PUP. It's not necessarily because PUP is trash, it's not a bunch of people bashing on PUP just to bash on PUP, it is honestly because when you do the math, PUP falls behind.

The reasonings behind this are somewhat simple.
1) We lack a lot of the attack/acc other DDs get because of our h2h skill and lack of natural attack increasing abilities (aside of that from subjobs)
2) A lot of our power comes from not only the master but also our automatons which leads us to two problems
a) In fights with heavy AoE spam, such as Voidwatch or Legion, automatons sadly cannot last long. This is even considering the buffs they have been given and using attachments to mitigate damage (which also have the possibility of taking up slots that could be used for attachments that provide more damage output). You could argue that Deus Ex resolves this problem, but I'll tackle that in the next point.
b) If we don't use maneuvers to buff our automatons, they fall very far behind. However, using maneuvers is a double-edged sword, because by using maneuvers regularly we, the master, have to deal with the problem of the unavoidable JA delay which will lessen our damage this also applies to us reactivating the puppet with Deus Ex.

What this all means is, even with full buffs, PUPs quite simply do not match up to many of the more mainstream DDs used in events right now.

Before we get defensive, this is in no way saying PUP is a bad job, I love PUP and I honestly use it more often than any other job I have played and have done so since I started playing it nearly 4 years ago. However, when people are looking to get the most efficiency out of a group as possible (in terms of damage done in a short amount of time) it is, quite simply, not one of the better choices simply because of the way it is designed. That said, PUP is still an excellent DD with a lot of ability to shine in other scenarios, just not zergs.

Quick Edit: There is also a 3rd point I forgot to add when I made this, derp. XP

3) Automatons, like all pets, don't get the same buffs as the master. This makes the point in 2b) Even stronger because sacrificing the damage of the master becomes even harder to compensate for the more buffs there are.

I sort of agree with Darth, I'm just a Verethragna pup atm, working on KKk but I did both Nares and Thaumas completion using my pup for NNI and like Darth people were generally impressed by how similar pup damage is to mnks . In an event where haste and attack are at cap or very very high, the only advantages mnk has over pup is extra critical rate from impetus, +2 base dmg, and about 20 skill. Meanwhile, pup has an automaton that can crank out impressive damage itself, or be backup healer, or nuke, etc. I'm friends with Giti and what he says is pretty Damn accurate.

I also have a hard time seeing how relic mnk beats a mythic pup seeing as how pups delay is lower with KKk than mnks is with relic. Stringing pummel is stronger than any mnk ws not including Vs, and the mythic aftermath, which also applies to the ranger auto is nuts lol

I've never really done testing, I just go by what other KKk owners tell me, so I could be totally wrong, but that's how it looks like on paper. You need gear to backup your weapon tho I know of a mythic dragoon with ***gear that parses like 7% lol

Actually Stringing Pummel is roughly on-par with VS, and should better it after the 30% bonus from KKK (excepting the extra bonuses that the monk job has over puppetmaster).

Looking at Motenten's DPS spreadsheets, PUP is competitive with monk in situations where mob stats are low, and buffs are high. Using maneuvers is a huge DPS hit, so this disregards the auto altogether. It's not a realistic situation. In more realistic situations, monk is ahead by a wide margin. And the big 2handers (war, drk, sam, ryu drg) will wreck us.

Our job excels at solo and low-man; situations where we can use our pet to its fullest. We can do solos that monk cannot, we are one of the best Dynamis jobs, Stringing Pummel is awesome, etc. Kenkonken is the best weapon for 90% of what we do, so it's worth getting IMO. Just, if you want to crush harder stuff, get an Ukon or something.

Way too much math in a damn video game.

If you like the job, and want the weapon, *** everything and get the gd weapon!

SIMPLE.

Simple only if that's what they want. Some people would rather go with an item they think would be more useful to them depending on what they do more often.

Besides, math is everywhere, even where you don't want it. Just gotta deal with it.

Edit: As a side note, do realize that every MMO, actually every game, has about this much if not more math to it. Whether the player base actually knows or seeks out the equations or not.

considering that the entire workings of the universe could technically be melted down to a mathematical formula with enough time and resources, i don't think you'll be avoiding math any time soon, especially not in a video game made entirely of math that is so simple that a gradeschooler can pick it up pretty quickly, thus making it easy to optimize your performance toward whatever you want.

if the man wants information on KKK before spending all that time and energy then by god he should be allowed to ask for it

Completely missed my point. I'll go back to not posting, ever.

The arguement of JA delay and the auto dying is crap from my experience. I have not experienced legion my self but I have seen others do it and other players use their JA as well. So I don't understand why a pup using it's JA is any different then a Sam or Drk or even a Mnk. If you are swapping out gear in a macro then you are not getting a freezing animation and if you look at the chat screen you can see that the master still gets his swings in even if you don't see the animation. Secondly, the auto is not as frail as everyone may think. From what I saw personally AOE spam kills everyone. Sure there is PD but it only lasts for so long and then the players would have to deal with the AOE spam as well. Or you can just have people try and stun lock the NM.

Just to shed a little light on how I keep my auto from dying constantly from AOE magic spam. Everyone for some reason tries to use the auto in either full Mage mode, full Rng mode or full War mode. Mix and match people. For an AOE mob that your auto will not have to tank, why not use Harle head and Valoredge body? This allows you to equip both mana jammers and both Armor plates. I also use the Anwig with -10 damage taken and pup haste. Pop a Repair as well right before you go in to attack a heavy magic spam NM and your auto will do just as well (survival wise) as a regular player.

One more problem I have with some of these posts is that everyone only judges the Puppet master's damage. The auto is hitting the mob the entire time as well and it doesn't have the same issues as a player if the NM has high defense. Please combine the two. I'm not saying the pup will come out on top every single time but from listening to some people on here you would think that pup does no damage at all. Which is seriously not the case.

This post is full of true, and the middle paragraph is particularly relevant.

A SAM, DRK, or MNK doesn't have to use JAs at nearly the same frequency as a PUP

Idk how people can complain about math in a piece of computer software...

Kenkoken is amazing, the main problem is, is the stigma that comes with PUP. It doesn't matter who you outdamage or what you do you're still just a 'lolpup' in the mind of 95% of the moron mouth breathers that play this game

Looking at Motenten's DPS spreadsheets, PUP is competitive with monk in situations where mob stats are low, and buffs are high. Using maneuvers is a huge DPS hit, so this disregards the auto altogether. It's not a realistic situation. In more realistic situations, monk is ahead by a wide margin. And the big 2handers (war, drk, sam, ryu drg) will wreck us.

I agree with that to some extent. True constantly using the maneuvers to buff the auto is a dos killer but just do as I stated before and send the auto in there. The damage it does alone still goes towards your overall damage.

And I do agree with math but what gets me is that these math numbers are for ideal situations and for players that have ALL the endgame gear to gets these ideal numbers. If said player has all this gear then why do these events in the first place? The game situation always changes. One player will not ALWAYS be the top dd. Gear choices make a major difference in this game from a bad dd to a good dd. And everyone that plays this game now is definately not fully geared.

This. Also, you do realize changing gear to to escape the animation lock from using a JA does not actually remove the 1 second delay it adds to your next attack, right?

In the end, SAM, DRK, and MNK may be using JAs but they're not using an additional 3 ~every minute like a PUP needs to to keep maneuvers active on their automaton.
While the stigma is still there, this is not the topic at hand and was not brought up. I believe Kapuru even said they would make KKK in a heartbeat if they had the resources to.

I'm sorry but I feel we as PUPs fall back on this old, outdated stigma too much now adays when trying to defend ourselves and find it somewhat insulting.

Stringing Pummel is a fairly long ws so I tend to just use my maneuvers right before I ws and it's really not that bad at all lol