That's such a HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE statement saying MNK is handicapped in those environments, so I guess MNK is supposed to be great against HNM then? And what events are mobs not dying instantly now a day? If they are not good in those events then I guess they are great against high defense high level NMs? really? you sure?
In events where mobs die instantly are events you tell MNK to main assist cuz they can engage faster from mob to mob (wow, I wonder why). That gives them an advantage even when they are not doing assist. I suppose you think you can engage right away after a mob died? Then I guess you haven't tried to engage a mob when you are weakened? The delay carries over after a mob dies to the next mob. So naturally, low delay jobs can engage much faster from mob to mob. I suppose you are talking about a long time ago when you can do the trick of engaging and disengage to rid the delay of the weapon? Guess what, that was actually a good way to beat maat back then as DRK to do that trick. BUT THEY PATCHED IT!
You are not WSing any less frequently in such setting than a 2hander since there is greater chance, thanks to the higher delay, that a 2 hander can be wasting hits. There is a greater chance, on a 528 delay weapon, that you can be reaching 520 delay and the mob die and you don't get that hit in, than let's say on a 200 delay weapon.
You are WSing far less because that's not what your job is about, I suppose you think a MNK should WS at the same rate as 2handers? While you are talking about meditate, when mobs die instantly, that's actually when meditate isn't so effective cuz you are waiting a full 3 minutes of fighting time instead of spending time waiting for mobs to come, which increase the TP/fight time rate of meditate.
I mean honestly, forgive me as I hate to call ppl out on a forum, but that's just the most ridiculous argument I have ever heard. If anything, it is the total opposite.
The only argument I will give you about MNK suffering from such setting is that the emp. WS for them is multi hit, so there will be alot of time that a MNK will get screwed on WS damage when your first hit of the WS kill a mob. Other than that, I am sorry, you actually benefit more from the aftermath effect since you are getting more normal hits in.
Torcleaver Math
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Torcleaver Math
Ragnarok.Returner said: That's such a HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE statement saying MNK is handicapped in those environments, so I guess MNK is supposed to be great against HNM then? And what events are mobs not dying instantly now a day? If they are not good in those events then I guess they are great against high defense high level NMs? really? you sure? In events where mobs die instantly are events you tell MNK to main assist cuz they can engage faster from mob to mob (wow, I wonder why). That gives them an advantage even when they are not doing assist. I suppose you think you can engage right away after a mob died? Then I guess you haven't tried to engage a mob when you are weakened? The delay carries over after a mob dies to the next mob. So naturally, low delay jobs can engage much faster from mob to mob. I suppose you are talking about a long time ago when you can do the trick of engaging and disengage to rid the delay of the weapon? Guess what, that was actually a good way to beat maat back then as DRK to do that trick. BUT THEY PATCHED IT! You are not WSing any less frequently in such setting than a 2hander since there is greater chance, thanks to the higher delay, that a 2 hander can be wasting hits. There is a greater chance, on a 528 delay weapon, that you can be reaching 520 delay and the mob die and you don't get that hit in, than let's say on a 200 delay weapon. You are WSing far less because that's not what your job is about, I suppose you think a MNK should WS at the same rate as 2handers? While you are talking about meditate, when mobs die instantly, that's actually when meditate isn't so effective cuz you are waiting a full 3 minutes of fighting time instead of spending time waiting for mobs to come, which increase the TP/fight time rate of meditate. I mean honestly, forgive me as I hate to call ppl out on a forum, but that's just the most ridiculous argument I have ever heard. If anything, it is the total opposite. The only argument I will give you about MNK suffering from such setting is that the emp. WS for them is multi hit, so there will be alot of time that a MNK will get screwed on WS damage when your first hit of the WS kill a mob. Other than that, I am sorry, you actually benefit more from the aftermath effect since you are getting more normal hits in.
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Fenrir.Gradd said: I did outparse a Vere, Bravura and an Apoc tonight in dyna tho! Calad destroys outside Abyssea pretty violently I must say :O I had the best DoT ofc, and even my ws average was highest (though cada wasn't far behind, like 100 lower. 2.3k vs 2.2k)
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Quote: and only reason why mnks are good in abyssea is cuz they can tank better than drk? other than that, I don't remember ever partying/doing ls events with mnk besides maybe 75 merit pt's or the oldschool dunes party I've tanked things like sandworm, Khim, Cerb, etc. on Mnk. Not sure how bad your mnks sucked, but certainly wasn't the case on my block. Even if I wasn't designated tank on some of these mobs, I quickly became tank just based on dmg/enmity generated and was able to stay alive just fine whilst wrecking ***. Edit: Also to someone who was mentioning assists and mnk sucking on mobs that die fast, etc. Drks sams etc. Still also get a low number of hits per mob, so I don't see how that changes much. The only thing is they'd get SLIGHTLY more of an increase out of meditate than they would vs a mob they continued to be engaged on a long time. And as far as assisting goes, ppl still assist? Last 2 times I did dyna @ 90 just attack whatever and ***dies.
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I mean, the only way his statement would hold true is that they have a 2hander doing main assist, and thus the mnk loses out their low delay due to having to wait for the 2hander to slowly engaging. Other than that, there is no way a mnk loses out anything more than a 2hander on things that die fast.
And yea, it is hard for me to image Caladbolg drk out doing a Verth mnk outside of abyssea even... Outside of abyssea Caladbolg still suffer greatly from hit build stand point, and mnk's WS is equally as strong even without RR thanks to the new JA. But great to hear that you did outparse the mnk. I have finally put together a decent 6 hit build with 25% haste, and it worked pretty nicely last night. I hope SE give us some type of haste pants that got STP on it next patch. Sylph.Tigerwoods said: Quote: and only reason why mnks are good in abyssea is cuz they can tank better than drk? other than that, I don't remember ever partying/doing ls events with mnk besides maybe 75 merit pt's or the oldschool dunes party Oh!! and who does assist anymore xD and if you do, doesn't assit also work if lets say a drk switches target and casts a spell on it?
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Quetzalcoatl.Volkom said: only reason why mnks are good in abyssea is cuz they can tank better than drk? other than that, I don't remember ever partying/doing ls events with mnk besides maybe 75 merit pt's or the oldschool dunes party MNK's been a great tank for years, sadly it took Abyssea for the majority of the player base to realize it. Sylph.Tigerwoods said: Strange, my Vereth dominated Dyanmis last week. I was 34%, the Ccada guy was like 25%, and the amno sams were floating around 10% each, then misc stuff. I had the best DoT ofc, and even my ws average was highest (though cada wasn't far behind, like 100 lower. 2.3k vs 2.2k) Any chance you have an Einherjar parse with Vereth? I'm a bit curious how it compares to Amano and such. Also, is that WS average with or without food? 2.2k seems low for the Calad.
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@ Gradd - What was the figures like between Apoc and Bravura and how far behind did they come, what level were said relics and were you main assist ?
2.2k is about right, if anything, it is not that much lower, 2.3k is probably my average but I wouldn't say 2.2k is abnormal for Calad.
As for MNK tank, I think ppl learned that from Salvage already. Abyssea just brought it to another level with them able to keep hate much easier and the freedom to /war if they choose to. Cruor buff HP allow their only weakness to be hidden, a one shot tp move that outside of abyssea can usually mean KO, and unlimited MP for WHM allow for CURE V CURE VI spam that you otherwise wouldn't be able to outside abyssea. Not to mention atma improves counter rate somewhat, and allow for less tp spam of mob thanks to AGI. Not saying MNKs can't tank outside abyssea, but it is definitely not as efficient and safe outside. Ppl who are using MNK to tank outside are definitely not doing it because they learned they can in abyssea, most do it know their limit and when not to, and lvl 90 obviously allows for much easier time than before.
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I think most evidently is that ppl keep saying MNK + WHM can duo anything in abyssea, but rarely you hear ppl say MNK + RDM. WHM is still a big part of their success, and mostly due to CURE V, meaning they are still taking a substantial amount of damage, which requires fast cure that RDM can't keep up with.
Playing as Drk/mnk for a while now that I definitely see it as the case, and the importance of WHM that a RDM can't otherwise serve. Ragnarok.Returner said: I think most evidently is that ppl keep saying MNK + WHM can duo anything in abyssea, but rarely you hear ppl say MNK + RDM. WHM is still a big part of their success, and mostly due to CURE V, meaning they are still taking a substantial amount of damage, which requires fast cure that RDM can't keep up with. Playing as Drk/mnk for a while now that I definitely see it as the case, and the importance of WHM that a RDM can't otherwise serve. Quetzalcoatl.Volkom said: Ragnarok.Returner said: That's such a HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE statement saying MNK is handicapped in those environments, so I guess MNK is supposed to be great against HNM then? And what events are mobs not dying instantly now a day? If they are not good in those events then I guess they are great against high defense high level NMs? really? you sure? In events where mobs die instantly are events you tell MNK to main assist cuz they can engage faster from mob to mob (wow, I wonder why). That gives them an advantage even when they are not doing assist. I suppose you think you can engage right away after a mob died? Then I guess you haven't tried to engage a mob when you are weakened? The delay carries over after a mob dies to the next mob. So naturally, low delay jobs can engage much faster from mob to mob. I suppose you are talking about a long time ago when you can do the trick of engaging and disengage to rid the delay of the weapon? Guess what, that was actually a good way to beat maat back then as DRK to do that trick. BUT THEY PATCHED IT! You are not WSing any less frequently in such setting than a 2hander since there is greater chance, thanks to the higher delay, that a 2 hander can be wasting hits. There is a greater chance, on a 528 delay weapon, that you can be reaching 520 delay and the mob die and you don't get that hit in, than let's say on a 200 delay weapon. You are WSing far less because that's not what your job is about, I suppose you think a MNK should WS at the same rate as 2handers? While you are talking about meditate, when mobs die instantly, that's actually when meditate isn't so effective cuz you are waiting a full 3 minutes of fighting time instead of spending time waiting for mobs to come, which increase the TP/fight time rate of meditate. I mean honestly, forgive me as I hate to call ppl out on a forum, but that's just the most ridiculous argument I have ever heard. If anything, it is the total opposite. The only argument I will give you about MNK suffering from such setting is that the emp. WS for them is multi hit, so there will be alot of time that a MNK will get screwed on WS damage when your first hit of the WS kill a mob. Other than that, I am sorry, you actually benefit more from the aftermath effect since you are getting more normal hits in. There's no way a good drk will possibly keep hate off a good mnk. I loved drk and pimped mine before giving up on the job and moving to war, so I'm not just bandwagoning here. sadly, there's no way around it. :( Quetzalcoatl.Volkom said: Ragnarok.Returner said: I think most evidently is that ppl keep saying MNK + WHM can duo anything in abyssea, but rarely you hear ppl say MNK + RDM. WHM is still a big part of their success, and mostly due to CURE V, meaning they are still taking a substantial amount of damage, which requires fast cure that RDM can't keep up with. Playing as Drk/mnk for a while now that I definitely see it as the case, and the importance of WHM that a RDM can't otherwise serve. I understand all that, you can argue the same with RDM, slow II, paralyze II, Dia III, Phalanx II, bio, addle, haste, erase with /whm, -na spells with /whm etc etc. The main difference is really the CURE V and CURE VI that set them apart. Leviathan.Solanis said: I loved drk and pimped mine before giving up on the job and moving to war, so I'm not just bandwagoning here.
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Sylph.Starstrukk said: Quetzalcoatl.Volkom said: only reason why mnks are good in abyssea is cuz they can tank better than drk? other than that, I don't remember ever partying/doing ls events with mnk besides maybe 75 merit pt's or the oldschool dunes party MNK's been a great tank for years, sadly it took Abyssea for the majority of the player base to realize it. Sylph.Tigerwoods said: Strange, my Vereth dominated Dyanmis last week. I was 34%, the Ccada guy was like 25%, and the amno sams were floating around 10% each, then misc stuff. I had the best DoT ofc, and even my ws average was highest (though cada wasn't far behind, like 100 lower. 2.3k vs 2.2k) Any chance you have an Einherjar parse with Vereth? I'm a bit curious how it compares to Amano and such. Also, is that WS average with or without food? 2.2k seems low for the Calad. As far as Einherjar, we only did Dynamis a couple times for 85 to 90 relics. My shell won't be doing anymore and we stopped doing Einherjar shortly after Scars came out, since most of that ***is irrelevant now, so I don't have any Ejar parses for you, sorry. Ragnarok.Returner said: I think most evidently is that ppl keep saying MNK + WHM can duo anything in abyssea, but rarely you hear ppl say MNK + RDM. WHM is still a big part of their success, and mostly due to CURE V, meaning they are still taking a substantial amount of damage, which requires fast cure that RDM can't keep up with. Playing as Drk/mnk for a while now that I definitely see it as the case, and the importance of WHM that a RDM can't otherwise serve. Not only do you lose zerk, and 10% DA, but every time you lose all the dmg you gain from countering, every time you stop to cast shadows, you're losing dmg, etc. Mnk/nin is def still better for survivability, but why would you give up all of the above to substitute a rdm in for a whm? Just not worth it. Which ties me into vs outside of abyssea. Mnk is still an effective tank and can still get a lot of ***done w/o worrying about death and always has been, just not on /war. Ragnarok.Ashman said: Leviathan.Solanis said: I loved drk and pimped mine before giving up on the job and moving to war, so I'm not just bandwagoning here. what is WAT about it? I enjoyed drk because I like to hit mobs with a big stick and make their HP 0. WAR makes their HP 0 faster and in a way that feels less like a massive struggle. the extra red process ability is nice too. I read the title and thought "cool torcleaver maths" then I was redirected here and all I see is people flaming each other? >_> guys for real :S and I wont get that minute of my life back
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Ragnarok.Returner said: I mean, the only way his statement would hold true is that they have a 2hander doing main assist EDIT: don't know what everyone was using for subjobs either. EDIT2: clarification Ramuh.Aramachus said: I read the title and thought "cool torcleaver maths" then I was redirected here and all I see is people flaming each other? >_> guys for real :S and I wont get that minute of my life back Flaming. Hades. I get it. well, for the sake of re-railing the thread, what are people who actually have torcleaver using for it? What are they planning on upgrading if anything at all?
my usual case is DRK/SAM,VV RR Mounted Champion Haven't really done a whole lot of parsing with it yet, but inside abyssea it makes drk a worthwhile dd again, and outside just rapes faces. (subjective to my opinion) obvious upgrades i'm still working on: +2 legs, +2feet, bale earring, snow belt, and spamming campaign so i can 6hit with a rose strap. edit: yeah, I'm basically ignoring half the posts in this thread for the sake of getting good info out of people. Fenrir.Nightfyre said: Ragnarok.Returner said: I mean, the only way his statement would hold true is that they have a 2hander doing main assist EDIT: don't know what everyone was using for subjobs either. EDIT2: clarification Yea I was the MA, What does Tantra +2 do to Impetus? I already know its a pretty broked ability x: Impetus is crit rate/attack per hit.
Af3+2 body adds crit hit damage+% per hit (1% per hit). Aka mini razed ruins. You can take the mnk out of abyssea, but you can't take the abyssea out of the mnk.
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Sylph.Tigerwoods said: Impetus is crit rate/attack per hit. Af3+2 body adds crit hit damage+% per hit (1% per hit). Aka mini razed ruins. You can take the mnk out of abyssea, but you can't take the abyssea out of the mnk. Wow that is scary o.O Tiger you posted that rly fast <.< Quote: Wow that is scary o.O Quote: Tiger you posted that rly fast <.<
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Ramuh.Aramachus said: I read the title and thought "cool torcleaver maths" then I was redirected here and all I see is people flaming each other? >_> guys for real :S and I wont get that minute of my life back You must be new to DRK threads... It's as predictable as the solution to an Equation. A/B(C^2) = (DRKF) A:(Guy wants info) B:(The one guy that contributes) C:(Spicyryan Flame post) F:(Ensuing Shitstorm)
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You can look at my item set to see what I use for torcleaver. It has worked great for me so far in what I think should be the perfect setup.
As for Atma, I was thinking about a 5 hit build in abyssea with atma of the SQ and PB. But I am not sure if it is better than the RR/Apoc/GC setup that I like. If anything, I feel that Apoc/SQ/PB might be the way I will go with my 5 hit inside abyssea. Mount champ is good, but cuz of the regen, 50 VIT might seem alot but you be better off just use griffon claw since that's a straight up 20% increase in WS. 50 VIT probably going to give you 13% top. VV is good but STR adds nothing but attack, and regain might not net you a hit inside under high haste. finarfin said: mnks get their *** sucked (by me). period
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i use vv rr mc a lot because when i am in abyssea i am usually not attacking stuff the entire time i am there. my ls spends a lot of time making empy's so we are usually doing NM after NM. Basically, i use them because it rounds out to be more usefull to me then damage out the ***. We easily spend more time procing stuff then we do killing it (hi2you 45 second briarius's)
Ragnarok.Returner said: You can look at my item set to see what I use for torcleaver. It has worked great for me so far in what I think should be the perfect setup. As for Atma, I was thinking about a 5 hit build in abyssea with atma of the SQ and PB. But I am not sure if it is better than the RR/Apoc/GC setup that I like. If anything, I feel that Apoc/SQ/PB might be the way I will go with my 5 hit inside abyssea. Mount champ is good, but cuz of the regen, 50 VIT might seem alot but you be better off just use griffon claw since that's a straight up 20% increase in WS. 50 VIT probably going to give you 13% top. VV is good but STR adds nothing but attack, and regain might not net you a hit inside under high haste. How do Onyx feet compare to bale +2? I have them As well but have been using Bale +1, FSTR being already capped the higher attack should win? Very nice Build Btw! |
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