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Apocalypse or Ragnarok
Carbuncle.Crollion
サーバ: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 221
By Carbuncle.Crollion 2012-03-10 17:39:40
hell i love being on drk i do use my apoc alot but for most fights where i know ***hits the fan fast i bust out my calad till i finish my oat GS. i aint scared to admit it lol scythe has its uses just like a GS does.
some people do have that mind set that just because u got a relic OMFG UR GODLY nope not 1 bit.
did some VW today 2 drks me and another and i was smoking him in a parse using my apoc he had oat GS. whats that tell me he just aint geared proper or even know how to work that GS cause he should be winning by a long shot.
Cerberus.Kvazz
サーバ: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 5345
By Cerberus.Kvazz 2012-03-10 17:41:45
Can actually 5hit OAT GS now if you sacrifice a bit in ws set (assuming atleast 2 hits on reso), with 23-24% haste(ace's legs for 24)
I need to get a rose strap to test that out :p
Edit: Wonder how this would fair vs Apoc and Ragna on stuff with low evasion:
Improvements here and there, but it's what I'm gonna try out once I unlazy and get rose strap..
サーバ: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1285
By Phoenix.Dramatica 2012-03-10 17:45:10
I'm quite interested in the math on 99 Ragnarok/Caladbolg/OaTGS. I'd bet caladbolg would win out under capped accuracy in VW with proper aftermath usage, with Ragnarok not far behind.
Cerberus.Taint
サーバ: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1514
By Cerberus.Taint 2012-03-10 17:45:57
Phoenix.Dramatica said: »Phoenix.Dramatica said: »Standard low acc TP set, high acc tp set(rarely sees use, lamorak and T6 that last longer than agressor/DE duration), Last resort+March set for all realistic purposes. I have yet to see a (good) apoc even come close in VW. 3.1-3.7k resolution averages in my parses, how much is entropy doing? I get that you love your apoc, and yes apoc does have purposes other than dealing damage. Just stop spouting that it is the superior DD weapon. If your average on resolution is 3.1 - 3.7k with ragnarok that means Apoc > Rag without a doubt. Care to share some numbers from your parses? My resolution set is top notch besides WOTG ear(lazy) and nyzul gear. Entropy/cata averages don't even come close. Also @ you Taint, I keep seeing you say that Apoc>Ragnarok at damage, yet it falls behind vastly in WS damage and DOT. The only advantage Apoc has is accuracy(capped at current content besides beetle so this point is moot) and 5hit over 6hit.
Quote me then. On paper Rag > Apoc for damage. The only time I've said Apoc > Rag was based on the parses I've posted of me shitting on Rag DRKs with my Apoc. I've also acknowleged that most DRK can't gear worth a ***, esp on harder content which favors me heavily when competitively parsing.
With top notch gear sets Rag should always be on top, too bad 99% of the population puts that kind of effort into any of their jobs. It is also never a blow out, while Rag should beat Apoc in every situation it is always very close. When I get more time I'll post exact numbers. I'll have a Rag myself in the next few weeks and will put together gear sets for everyone based on my experience and calcs.
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サーバ: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1285
By Phoenix.Dramatica 2012-03-10 18:12:30
Looking forward to actual math on it, I just don't see how things between them can be very close in an all out offensive situation. I meant no disrespect, and I'm not exactly being a good poster here by not providing any actual data to prove my point. Both weapons are useful, I just find myself needing more damage more often than needing more defense.
On an unrelated note, am I right in assuming that a Liberator DRK is probably the most damaging job for any zerg purposes(Starting with 300TP, especially VW obviously)?
Phoenix.Neosutra
サーバ: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 620
By Phoenix.Neosutra 2012-03-10 18:29:26
To follow up with some of the above comements:
Just how far ahead is Ragnarok from OA2 GS?
Cerberus.Taint
サーバ: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1514
By Cerberus.Taint 2012-03-10 18:37:13
Phoenix.Dramatica said: »Looking forward to actual math on it, I just don't see how things between them can be very close in an all out offensive situation. I meant no disrespect, and I'm not exactly being a good poster here by not providing any actual data to prove my point. Both weapons are useful, I just find myself needing more damage more often than needing more defense.
On an unrelated note, am I right in assuming that a Liberator DRK is probably the most damaging job for any zerg purposes(Starting with 300TP, especially VW obviously)?
The most damage doesn't come down to delay and WS damage. Apoc DRKs are 5hitting, stacking more offensive stats (acc,DA,TA,QA,att whatever meets the situations) drain also helps out SE zergs and so does a 167 base damage weapon.
When I compared the DPS of both weapons it took some gear set crafting to make Rag come out on top. But it always could come out on top. Which is why I say a Rag DRK needs around 6 different gear sets to always be in beast mode.
サーバ: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3201
By Fenrir.Skarwind 2012-03-10 18:44:27
To follow up with some of the above comements:
Just how far ahead is Ragnarok from OA2 GS?
I'd have to go on the Test Server to really find out. Two different people is kind of a stretch for a comparison. Especially if one is on DRK and the other is on WAR. It just isn't equal.
Damage Summary
Player Total Dmg Damage % Melee Dmg Range Dmg Abil. Dmg WSkill Dmg Spell Dmg Other Dmg Absorbed Dmg
Aidy 249 0.13 % 228 0 0 0 21 0 0
Aleste 24692 13.17 % 6772 0 0 17920 0 0 0
Almera 2824 1.51 % 0 372 328 2124 0 0 0
Bigakuga 3 0.00 % 0 0 0 0 3 0 0
Crypt 9543 5.09 % 2178 0 0 7365 0 0 0
Crystenne 106 0.06 % 0 0 0 0 106 0 0
Ionve 25924 13.82 % 7823 0 0 17636 0 465 0
Jewkitten 8369 4.46 % 0 0 840 7529 0 0 0
Leoheart 21246 11.33 % 7636 0 0 13610 0 0 0
Lilxrj 7346 3.92 % 0 0 0 0 7346 0 0
Pandak 2956 1.58 % 759 0 0 2130 67 0 0
Shadowgod 11399 6.08 % 3639 0 0 7760 0 0 0
Skarwind 33078 17.64 % 7344 0 821 24913 0 0 0
Slimshade 99 0.05 % 0 0 0 0 99 0 0
Taklum 7274 3.88 % 0 0 0 0 7274 0 0
Tooshei 26332 14.04 % 14417 0 0 11915 0 0 0
Yawnswithpower 764 0.41 % 0 0 0 0 764 0 0
SC: Fragmentation 1104 0.59 % 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
SC: Light 4218 2.25 % 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Total 187526 100.00 % 50796 372 1989 112902 15680 465 0
Melee Damage
Player Melee Dmg Abs'd.Dmg Net Dmg Melee % Hit/Miss M.HR % M.Acc % M.Low/Hi M+0.Avg M-0.Avg
Aidy 228 0 228 91.57 % 5/1 83.33 % 83.33 % 41/50 45.60 45.60
Aleste 6772 0 6772 27.43 % 23/2 92.00 % 92.00 % 0/328 230.67 247.14
Crypt 2178 0 2178 22.82 % 13/0 100.00 % 100.00 % 0/212 168.45 185.30
Ionve 7823 0 7823 30.18 % 22/3 88.00 % 88.00 % 0/446 246.00 283.85
Leoheart 7636 0 7636 35.94 % 21/1 95.45 % 95.45 % 166/687 301.15 301.15
Pandak 759 0 759 25.68 % 14/2 87.50 % 87.50 % 13/119 47.75 47.75
Shadowgod 3639 0 3639 31.92 % 14/7 66.67 % 66.67 % 0/463 239.23 259.17
Skarwind 7344 0 7344 22.20 % 26/2 92.86 % 92.86 % 0/390 216.59 245.47
Tooshei 14417 0 14417 54.75 % 65/3 95.59 % 95.59 % 90/303 144.69 144.69
Melee Crit Damage
Player #Crit C.Low/Hi C-0.Avg Crit%
Aidy 0 0/0 0.00 0.00 %
Aleste 8 388/450 414.00 34.78 %
Crypt 2 0/325 325.00 15.38 %
Ionve 7 454/979 590.43 31.82 %
Leoheart 8 0/1069 620.17 38.10 %
Pandak 2 90/96 93.00 14.29 %
Shadowgod 1 529/529 529.00 7.14 %
Skarwind 9 338/479 406.89 34.62 %
Tooshei 26 214/555 337.46 40.00 %
Ranged Damage
Player Range Dmg Range % Hit/Miss R.HR % R.Acc % R.Low/Hi R+0.Avg R-0.Avg #Crit C.Low/Hi C-0.Avg Crit%
Almera 372 13.17 % 3/1 75.00 % 75.00 % 0/0 124.00 124.00 0 124/124 0.00 0.00 %
Other Physical Damage (Counterattacks and Retaliations)
Player CA.Dmg CA.Hits-0 CA.Low/Hi CA-0.Avg Ret.Dmg Ret.Hits-0 Ret.Low/Hi Ret-0.Avg
Ionve 0 0 0/0 0.00 465 1 465/465 465.00
Weaponskill Damage
Player WSkill Dmg Abs'd.Dmg Net Dmg WSkill % Hit/Miss WS.Acc % WS.Low/Hi WS.Avg
Aidy 0 0 0 0.00 % 1/0 100.00 % 0/0 0.00
- Blade: Hi 0 0 0 0.00 % 1/0 100.00 % 0/0 0.00
Aleste 17920 0 17920 72.57 % 9/0 100.00 % 1294/2799 1991.11
- Resolution 17920 0 17920 100.00 % 9/0 100.00 % 1294/2799 1991.11
Almera 2124 0 2124 75.21 % 3/0 100.00 % 514/1032 708.00
- Last Stand 2124 0 2124 100.00 % 3/0 100.00 % 514/1032 708.00
Crypt 7365 0 7365 77.18 % 6/0 100.00 % 0/2139 1227.50
- Tachi: Shoha 7365 0 7365 100.00 % 6/0 100.00 % 0/2139 1227.50
Ionve 17636 0 17636 68.03 % 6/0 100.00 % 1455/4296 2939.33
- Ukko's Fury 17636 0 17636 100.00 % 6/0 100.00 % 1455/4296 2939.33
Jewkitten 7529 0 7529 89.96 % 5/0 100.00 % 1491/1565 1505.80
- Wildfire 7529 0 7529 100.00 % 5/0 100.00 % 1491/1565 1505.80
Leoheart 13610 0 13610 64.06 % 8/0 100.00 % 0/3361 1701.25
- Ground Strike 1053 0 1053 7.74 % 1/0 100.00 % 1053/1053 1053.00
- Herculean Slash 176 0 176 1.29 % 1/0 100.00 % 176/176 176.00
- Resolution 8758 0 8758 64.35 % 4/0 100.00 % 0/3361 2189.50
- Scourge 3623 0 3623 26.62 % 2/0 100.00 % 1269/2354 1811.50
Pandak 2130 0 2130 72.06 % 2/0 100.00 % 889/1241 1065.00
- Chant du Cygne 2130 0 2130 100.00 % 2/0 100.00 % 889/1241 1065.00
Shadowgod 7760 0 7760 68.08 % 3/0 100.00 % 2218/3131 2586.67
- Torcleaver 7760 0 7760 100.00 % 3/0 100.00 % 2218/3131 2586.67
Skarwind 24913 0 24913 75.32 % 10/0 100.00 % 0/3643 2491.30
- Resolution 24913 0 24913 100.00 % 10/0 100.00 % 0/3643 2491.30
Tooshei 11915 0 11915 45.25 % 5/0 100.00 % 1347/3309 2383.00
- Victory Smite 11915 0 11915 100.00 % 5/0 100.00 % 1347/3309 2383.00
Ability Damage
Player Abil. Dmg Abs'd.Dmg Net Dmg Abil. % Hit/Miss A.Acc % A.Low/Hi A.Avg
Almera 328 0 328 11.61 % 2/0 100.00 % 95/233 164.00
- Fire Shot 233 0 233 71.04 % 1/0 100.00 % 233/233 233.00
- Ice Shot 95 0 95 28.96 % 1/0 100.00 % 95/95 95.00
Jewkitten 840 0 840 10.04 % 2/0 100.00 % 420/420 420.00
- Fire Shot 840 0 840 100.00 % 2/0 100.00 % 420/420 420.00
Skarwind 821 0 821 2.48 % 3/0 100.00 % 29/510 273.67
- High Jump 282 0 282 34.35 % 1/0 100.00 % 282/282 282.00
- Jump 510 0 510 62.12 % 1/0 100.00 % 510/510 510.00
- Weapon Bash 29 0 29 3.53 % 1/0 100.00 % 29/29 29.00
Against Pil: Sorry for the clusterfuck format btw. I feel too lazy to upload it as a .png or mess with code.
サーバ: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1285
By Phoenix.Dramatica 2012-03-10 18:46:01
Yeah you can't really comare DRK and WAR. DRK will be capped pdif and WAR likely won't, also arcane circle if he wasn't in your party.
サーバ: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3201
By Fenrir.Skarwind 2012-03-10 18:48:33
Phoenix.Dramatica said: »Yeah you can't really comare DRK and WAR. DRK will be capped pdif and WAR likely won't, also arcane circle if he wasn't in your party.
Looking at that fight, Why the hell did I only Jump/High Jump once D:
I have other parses but this was the only one I had with Leoheart when I was on DRK. For some reason I'm on WAR when he goes WAR. Rag+ Last Resort may pull out ahead DoT Wise though and slightly more with WSDMG. Though WSfrequency may drop a bit.
サーバ: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3012
By Fenrir.Leoheart 2012-03-10 18:56:23
Is it safe to come out and say I had no food or Berserk that fight? lol >.>;
Edit:
Honesty; Ragnarok is nice for war, but it isn't really good on anything Above a T3 Jeuno Mob.
サーバ: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1285
By Phoenix.Dramatica 2012-03-10 19:12:29
Yeah I'd bet that ragnarok is the best war weapon if capped PDIF and you can't maintain ukon AM3.
Ramuh.Austar
サーバ: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10457
By Ramuh.Austar 2012-03-10 19:56:02
Phoenix.Dramatica said: »Yeah you can't really comare DRK and WAR. DRK will be capped pdif and WAR likely won't, also arcane circle if he wasn't in your party. What are you fighting that you can't cap attack on any job with Berserk?
Phoenix.Ninjie
サーバ: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 146
By Phoenix.Ninjie 2012-03-10 19:57:06
Phoenix.Dramatica said: »Yeah you can't really comare DRK and WAR. DRK will be capped pdif and WAR likely won't, also arcane circle if he wasn't in your party. What are you fighting that you can't cap attack on any job with Berserk? Your avatar puts me in a trance lol
Ragnarok.Lugat
サーバ: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 176
By Ragnarok.Lugat 2012-03-10 20:35:35
What are you fighting that you can't cap attack on any job with Berserk? more than you would think.
サーバ: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 11680
By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2012-03-10 20:36:40
How long have you been reading xiah again?
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Ramuh.Austar
サーバ: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10457
By Ramuh.Austar 2012-03-10 20:40:17
What are you fighting that you can't cap attack on any job with Berserk? more than you would think. If a 1H has 1300 attack with Berserk up and Stalwart's with 27% Chaos Roll, and red curries:
1300/2 = 650 defense to cap with no defense down
Dia2? (1300/2)/.90 = 722
Di3? 650/.85 = 764
What about just Tachi: Ageha? 650/.7 = 928
I'd expect at least dia 2 on evrerything, and I really doubt T6s have much higher than 600 defense. Do y'all just not know how level correction works? I'm more concerned with accuracy.
サーバ: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 11680
By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2012-03-10 20:48:51
Random party talk likely consists primarily of people who have no idea how the game's damage functions actually work. See: all the testimonials on wiki where a mob has "very high defense" but really just has high level and/or innate PDT.
It's possible that some VWNMs have Jailer of Love-esque defense. I don't have any data that rules out that possibility. It's certainly open to testing.
Ramuh.Austar
サーバ: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10457
By Ramuh.Austar 2012-03-10 20:50:49
That was probably before devs release info that Ig-Alima was level 120.
サーバ: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3201
By Fenrir.Skarwind 2012-03-10 20:58:51
How long have you been reading xiah again?
Meh I'm only saying it would give ME the ability to gauge how I would perform with said weapon. I'm no math guru but I can tell from my own results which would suite my needs. Is it 100% accurate? No, Is it skewed? It could be. I don't want to get into this and derail a thread.
As for VWNMs like Ig Alima, level can make a difference in terms of damage dealt correct? Basically how back in the day some melee hits on say Kirin ended up being randomly low/weak without proper buffs.
A Jailer of Love type of defense would be interesting to test for.
Lakshmi.Rearden
サーバ: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1130
By Lakshmi.Rearden 2012-03-10 21:00:09
Where's the Jackie Chan my mind is full of f*** picture when you need it
Ramuh.Austar
サーバ: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10457
By Ramuh.Austar 2012-03-10 21:01:28
Lakshmi.Rearden
サーバ: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1130
By Lakshmi.Rearden 2012-03-10 21:03:23
ancient aliens version by far the best
[+]
サーバ: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3201
By Fenrir.Skarwind 2012-03-10 21:04:47
ancient aliens version by far the best
***^3
Them Cubez
サーバ: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 11680
By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2012-03-10 21:10:16
Meh I'm only saying it would give ME the ability to gauge how I would perform with said weapon. Read the posts you've made in this thread and say that again. Whether you intended to or not, you've made or implied statements about the status of multiple weapons based on parsing.
サーバ: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3201
By Fenrir.Skarwind 2012-03-10 21:20:10
Meh I'm only saying it would give ME the ability to gauge how I would perform with said weapon. Read the posts you've made in this thread and say that again. Whether you intended to or not, you've made or implied statements about the status of multiple weapons based on parsing.
So I made a mistake, I acknowledge that, may we move on? Like I said I am no math guru.
Phoenix.Urteil
By Phoenix.Urteil 2012-03-10 22:30:46
What are you fighting that you can't cap attack on any job with Berserk? more than you would think. If a 1H has 1300 attack with Berserk up and Stalwart's with 27% Chaos Roll, and red curries:
1300/2 = 650 defense to cap with no defense down
Dia2? (1300/2)/.90 = 722
Di3? 650/.85 = 764
What about just Tachi: Ageha? 650/.7 = 928
I'd expect at least dia 2 on evrerything, and I really doubt T6s have much higher than 600 defense. Do y'all just not know how level correction works? I'm more concerned with accuracy.
You need exactly two times the attack to beat a mobs defense, is this accurate?
A lot of this sounds insane.
Ramuh.Austar
サーバ: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10457
By Ramuh.Austar 2012-03-10 22:31:11
What are you fighting that you can't cap attack on any job with Berserk? more than you would think. If a 1H has 1300 attack with Berserk up and Stalwart's with 27% Chaos Roll, and red curries:
1300/2 = 650 defense to cap with no defense down
Dia2? (1300/2)/.90 = 722
Di3? 650/.85 = 764
What about just Tachi: Ageha? 650/.7 = 928
I'd expect at least dia 2 on evrerything, and I really doubt T6s have much higher than 600 defense. Do y'all just not know how level correction works? I'm more concerned with accuracy.
You need exactly two times the attack to beat a mobs defense, is this accurate?
A lot of this sounds insane. 2.2 for two-handers.
Phoenix.Urteil
By Phoenix.Urteil 2012-03-10 22:32:42
Two handed weapons need more attack to break a mobs defense than a one hander?
o_O
Torn between which relic to make. I will be taking whichever I make to 99, so the question is overall damage/utility which one is better?
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