Viable 5 Hit?

He is referring to you.

The hell did I just read? This thread went to ***right fast.

^ This nonsense over everyone's disbelief at one individual's inability to gear correctly/heed advice started on page 1 (today) and here we are on page 4 and it's only 2 hours past noon (est).

What confuses me is the adhesion to haste and simultaneous aversion to STP. The two are conceptually inclusive; they can't can't logically be separated. To believe the former is to believe that when one increases the average speed of their attack rounds, their damage output will experience a proportionate average increase. To believe the latter is to believe that when one increases the average frequency of performing a WS, their damage output will experience a proportionate average increase.

In fewer words, you're arguing that increasing one is reliable, and increasing the other is not, when that's mathematically impossible. If you're going to assert that STP's benefits are unreliable due to the (calculable) insertion of ulterior TP sources -in this case, jumps- then you must simultaneously accept that haste's benefits are unreliable due to the (calculable) insertion of pauses(JA delay) in one's attack rounds independent of their average attack speed.

In even fewer words, no.

I am just glad if you all had a laugh, I just said that it's over rated, since so many factors can interfere in your tpgaining.

I don't see why everybody get so stressed when someone say something they can't even understand.

;D Seriously you all need to take this easier, it's just a game.. a stupid game lol..
An effort? My Gungnir? haha. Took me 3 weeks from stage 1 to 5, seriously, not bragging about it, I am happy to have it, but this isn't what I call an effort.

Anyway, save your breath, I think I'll keep taking it easy, I will keep being parserless, and look more on the game and less on the chatlog's numbers ;3.

@Minjo- Kinda what you said, yes, but attack speed it's different from store tp. I am saying that TP gain is often influenced from other factors, especially for drg, since it has Conserve TP (said to be 30% correct me if im wrong, but more or less I'd say 30% is correct from my experience), and Jumps (DA/TA/QA proc / gear TP bonus), getting hit from mob / aoe etc). That being said, I think it is kinda a waste of money/time to calculate exact STP bonus, since TPgain with drg is most likely "dirty".

That's my point ;) glad after 4 pages to found someone who can express himself without having to act like the classic NA-troll..

srsly guise I gots mai Gungir in 3 weeks, stop bein mad.

Who cares what anything "just" is? Are you going to do it? Yes? Then why not do your best?

I, personally, am not trying to knock you down. I don't care what you do or do not have. If you'd prefer to maintain your current level of understand with regard to game mechanics, that's your prerogative. I'm never going to play with you, so it is literally of no consequence to me. I'm merely pointing out the non sequitur in your justification for avoiding STP- nothing more, and nothing less.

If you're going to ignore the calculable average increase in TP accumulation offered by STP on the basis of ulterior factors, then it would logically follow that you also ignore the average increase offer by haste, because it too is subject to calculable interference.

With all due respect, it seems as if you're only alright with haste because of it's direct benefits, and not because you understand why it is conceptually beneficial. I can only imagine that if you understood why it's conceptually beneficial, instead of only superficially beneficial, you'd have no trouble accepting the benefits of STP in these cases.

The issue with your issue is that we can account for all of these things through averages(including jumps and multi-attacks) Additionally, we can force jumps to give the most appropriate TP return for our current build. There are very simple programs that will tell you not only exactly how much STP you'll need during your TP-phase, but how much STP you'll need during each individual type of jump.

As I said, you're welcome to take or discard any of the aforementioned suggestions and explanations, but it would be in your best interests to have a firmer grasp on the power of averages.

I haven't said STP isn't beneficial, I said it' isn't as beneficial as you're saying. Based on what I said thru this post.

You and whoever else with you are perfectly free to choose not to play with me.;)

EDIT:Well just using too many outside programs doesn't make it look like I am playing at all.
And now that you admited that there are different factors influencing STP for DRG, you know we talking about a very slight difference yes?

A calculator does not play FF for you.

Maybe not, but I'm seriously afraid of becoming as bitchy as you are if i start playing like you do 8D, I prefer keep being "ignorant" to you and be myself.

I am done here.

Let's say you get paid 4 times per month (once per week). You make a set salary of $200/week. About 20% of the time, you get a bonus of $100 to your paycheck at the end of a week.

Now, you're going to look for apartments. Pretending that your only living expense is rent, and you have no savings ... would you rent an apartment that costs $900/month just because "Well, sometimes it will work out anyway?"

If we add " 25% Haste" to the equation, we now get our paycheck once every 5 days, and we get paid 6 times per month, so we're making $1200/month. (50% more money!)

If we further add "Store TP + 50", we're getting paid $300 instead of $200, so at the end of the month we're pulling in $1800. So now, I pay the rent in half the time it would have taken me to make $800 initialy (30 days for $800 before Haste + Store TP, 15 days for $900 after 25% Haste and 50% Store TP), so not only can I rent the $900 apartment with zero worries, I also have $900 to blow on hookers and scotch.

Or in the case of FFXI, I can definitely perform 2 weapon skills where I might have been able to perform one.

In any case, I have to rent an apartment based on what I can reliably afford with my paycheck. I can't count on the occasional bonuses, so those are just extra at the end of the month (more scotch). It's not "Dirty" to exclude things I can't count on in my budget.

missing a slice of pie for pokemon/digimon >:

lol. sylow.

lol indeed, but still awesome :P
If someone does'nt understand it when explained like that, there's really no hope.

Don't think Kelvinklein's 5-hit is viable.

No, no, I can certainly see how someone would see it as 'unreliable'. Consider:

Variable TP return from the weaponskill due to misses and/or DA/TA procs, plus Conserve TP.
Removal of STP gear for PDT/MDT emergencies, lasting an unknown number of hits.
Soul/Spirit Jump on timers that don't coincide with weaponskill cycles (thus, may or may not apply for any given run to 100 TP), along with the possibility of an unknown number of DA/TA procs (ie: we don't know how many hits will be at the jump TP return level vs normal TP return level).
TP gain from being hit.
TP gain from regain/Meditate coupled with an indeterminate amount of haste (which influences how many ticks accumulate between weaponskills).

If you're trying to optimize for exactly enough Store TP at any point in time to minimize the number of hits you need to reach 100 TP while accounting for all of the above variables, it would be inordinately difficult. These are questions that you largely don't have to consider when deciding on haste equipment (the precise value of any given amount of haste doesn't fluctuate wildly based on large numbers of common events; only a couple of fairly predictable buffs need to be considered), and thus I feel that the analogy with haste is flawed.

However people generally recognize this complexity and ignore it, instead gearing for 'sufficient' Store TP to cover most circumstances. If a given amount of Store TP will work when you don't account for the random factors, it will also usually work when you do account for the random factors, even though that's a good bit less efficient.


As a very rough example:

Drg/war w/492 delay weapon
TP: 20 Store TP (Rajas/Tyrant/Brutal/AF3+2 body)
WS (Stardiver): 16 Store TP (Rajas/Brutal/AF3+2 body)
Jump: 16 Store TP (Rajas/Brutal/AF3+2 body)

Assuming all hits of the weaponskill land (but no DA/TA/QA):

Will benefit from using Hagneia on a weaponskill cycle with no jumps if there was a Conserve TP proc of 17.
Will benefit from using Hagneia on a weaponskill cycle with a 1-hit Spirit Jump if there was a Conserve TP proc of 13.
Will not benefit from using Hagneia on a weaponskill cycle with a 2-hit Spirit Jump.
Will benefit from using Hagneia on a weaponskill cycle with a 1-hit Soul Jump if there was a Conserve TP proc of 3 or 19.
Will not benefit from using Hagneia on a weaponskill cycle with a 2-hit Soul Jump.

Ignoring the Hagneia, 25 Store TP (ie: add Goading Belt) during TP phase would drop a hit when there was no Conserve TP proc, and that would be common target. However on a Conserve TP proc between 3 and 15, or 19-20 (ie: 75% of all possible procs), you could keep the same X-hit while switching to Phasmida. Betwen 16 and 18, Goading Belt would still drop another hit, and Goading+Hagneia would drop a hit on a Conserve TP proc of 15. (note: this for without any jumps in the cycle)


Given a roughly 1/3 chance of a Conserve TP proc (trait + belt), and maybe a 2/3 chance of a jump during a weaponskill cycle (with a conservative 30 second cycle period), the number of opportunities for Store TP to be wasted is surprisingly high. Of course it's largely impractical to manually account for that, and would be difficult even with Spellcast doing the calculations (no real way to predict use of or TP return from jumps in a given cycle, so calculations done immediately after a weaponskill may not be accurate), so most people just ignore the inefficiencies.

This is also something that's very difficult to see in my spreadsheets, since my spreadsheets use averages, and don't show you the results of any specific instance of an event like a Conserve TP proc.

It's obvious that you understand this, but I feel like anyone who doesn't might be overwhelmed by the complexity of your post.

I completely disagree with the use of the term "unreliable." It's the other factors that can contribute to overage that are unreliable. Having the right amount of Store TP will ensure that you can WS every X connects, every time. It's one of the most reliable stats in the game. Yes, outside factors will sometimes and often cause portions of it to be "wasted," so you don't get the "full effect" that store TP would appear to give to DPS.

That said, a 5-hit is insurance that after 5 hits, you'll be able to WS - no matter what (barring status, of course). Get a good conserve TP proc and hit twice and have 101 tp after 4-hits? That's great. WS and proclaim your greatness. But you know what? In the same circumstance, if you had "ignored" your x-hit to rely on "random" occurences, you might have only had 99 TP and still had to make that 5th hit for a huge overage.

It's just a game isn't it? You can be good at a game and not change yourself or act "Bitchy". These forums have always been about figuring out how to be the best you can be. Yes, some people are a bit elitist around here, but their advice is often solid and if you read up a bit, you will be able to do some amazing things with your drg. Changing a couple pieces of gear here and there doesn't change who you are. I'm proud of my blu's gear and how I play but I do my best to not come off as an ***.

Yeah, thinking about it, that's probably the wrong term. "Difficult to fully optimize" is perhaps better. While people put a lot of effort into optimizing their gear and increasing efficiency, when it comes to Store TP that's all largely ignored in favor of a simple flat value that simply works.


Correction in terms of what I was saying: it's not about 'relying' on random occurrences, it's about taking advantage of them when they do happen.

Well, in context, the person in question (Kelvinklein) was basically saying "Store TP doesn't matter cuz I get hit and have conserve TP."

Edit: Exact quote

We've basically been saying "Sorry dawg, that ain't gon' fly."

While theoretically possible to take advantage of random occurences, it's not really feasible in most cases and I would estimate that for small-X jobs, the contribution is probably minimal enough that you really don't lose much by "ignoring" them in your calculations in the first place. It might be different for large-X (dual wield) jobs, where the variance on your WS return alone might start to encroach on 100/X.

That said, if suddenly on your 3rd hit, enough craziness has happened and you're at 100TP, you can obviously take advantage of that.

I'd think the main job where it probably becomes a more pressing issue though is SAM, dat Ikishoten.

I could see it being something that could notably affect:

Drg: Conserve TP and jumps
Sam: Zanshin/Ikishoten (more difficult since it has to be constantly monitored)
Drk: Absorb-TP (easier since there's only a single factor)

For pretty much every other job it would be a microoptimization that's most likely not worth messing with.

For Jumps, it would be more of an issue of controlling when you jump so that you're filling in gaps instead of finishing off your cycle no matter where you are, creating huge wastes, wouldn't it?

my loldnc-ing isn't on there ;-; I'M HURT.

I ran out of categories in the program D:

Still hurt. ;-;

brb crying myself to sleep.

are you gay for sylow?

shhhhhhhhhhhhhhh he's right there! >:3